The 'Evil' Function
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I can understand why Fe, as representing empathy and the desire to be part of a group, could be annoying to INTJ. But isn't it also 'responsible' for analysing and perceiving people's behaviour, in a kind of psychologically manipulative way? So wouldn't it be also something to be admired, in a way, for a strategist?
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Just speaking for me (a finally admitted to myself INTJ) I really admire Fe as an ability. It's a super useful and incredible to watch. Empathy and desire to be part of a group don't offend me
but my self-respect is definitely based on my autonomy and self-control.
Saying any function is evil is just blatantly wrong... but the only person that I genuinely thought was a bad person was some kind of NFJ.
Ni might be the function most associated with something like "madness" and "delusion"
Doesn't it kind of internally draw a very artistic painting of the world, which is by nature creative/subjective/may look similar to what it means to portray but is almost never completely identical?
Anyway, seems like a majority of people who ended up with "psycho" tendencies; those elements also happened to coexist with Ni.
Doesn't it kind of internally draw a very artistic painting of the world, which is by nature creative/subjective/may look similar to what it means to portray but is almost never completely identical?
Anyway, seems like a majority of people who ended up with "psycho" tendencies; those elements also happened to coexist with Ni.
My INTP loses focus on what I'm saying when I start "wandering" in Ni as well. When I stick to categorical discussions (not necessarily philosophy), it's quite fun. Usually he and I come to similar conclusions about things. I succeed in "getting" to him when I explain things in direct terms. Explanation or responses that are too "involved" seem to signify to him that I'm just babbling.
I don't see Te as evil at all, to be honest. Si expressed through Te can be annoying when the person is in an "emotional high" or particularly passionate about something, but it is logical, factual, and verbal, so it is an easy interface. And when it is Ni expressed through Te, I usually find harmony easily, since Te does not express Ni until it is a fully formed idea; i.e., there is little occasion for offense; I find it more informative than evil... (though I'm sure any function can be put to evil use). If Te can use strategy for evil, then Fe can use emotion for evil. Problem solved.
I must say that Fi expressed through verbalized Ne doesn't usually sit well with me, because Ne seems to express internal values in a brief, direct, unexplained manner (which, in my Fe sensibilities, equals tactlessness)... at least when I encounter it in real life.
But when I think about Fi as internally formed values and Ne as sometimes raw, unchecked statements of intuition, they seem perfectly understandable. And when I think of Fi expressed as Se, there is practically nothing that offends me... except perhaps my usual hang-ups about "reliability".
I must say that Fi expressed through verbalized Ne doesn't usually sit well with me, because Ne seems to express internal values in a brief, direct, unexplained manner (which, in my Fe sensibilities, equals tactlessness)... at least when I encounter it in real life.
But when I think about Fi as internally formed values and Ne as sometimes raw, unchecked statements of intuition, they seem perfectly understandable. And when I think of Fi expressed as Se, there is practically nothing that offends me... except perhaps my usual hang-ups about "reliability".
For me, it might be Si, my 6th function. I've never really had a pleasant experience with SJs that have such a strong attitude. What an SJ or NP might see as significant in the details, I tend to see as redundant as an SP. I find Si even worse when combined with the super-opinionated Te, my 5th function. I've always had this slight fear of Te. So maybe it's really Te.
My 7th and 8th functions are related to bewilderment more than anything. I view Ne once as "hey, that's kinda cool!" and another time as "whatever, that is so unreal." I tend to find the theoretical discussions of NPs much harder to follow that those of NJs, and perhaps even full of all sorts of little insignificant details (anti-Si influence).
And Fi, while sometimes kind, like with Fe, can be seen as dangerously illogical, and feelings that are too self-centric. It's even worse when they get projected. For example I felt so disturbed one time when my ESTJ tech teacher projected Fi and Si onto me. He tried to instill the value of integrity in me, and even make me look it up in a dictionary, which I thought would be totally unproductive and useless, feeling competent in my own values (Ti). Apparently his Te didn't see my Ti as competence. I felt so ready to kill him for not just thinking like I do. He motivated our small class of 4 with Te, when Ti-Fe would've been a much better motivation for us.
My ENFJ teachers on the other hand, have been some of the most well-meaning and understanding teachers around (probably also because they knew better about my aspergers). I may have questioned their sense of fairness from time to time, but they still haven't let me down, insisting that they are indeed being fair.
Generally, I see the 1st and 2nd functions as the persona functions, the 3rd and 4th functions as the "discipline" functions (for Js, loosening up should be their way of becoming more "disciplined"), the 5th and 6th functions as the "paranoia" functions, and the 7th and 8th functions as the "bewilderment" functions.
My 7th and 8th functions are related to bewilderment more than anything. I view Ne once as "hey, that's kinda cool!" and another time as "whatever, that is so unreal." I tend to find the theoretical discussions of NPs much harder to follow that those of NJs, and perhaps even full of all sorts of little insignificant details (anti-Si influence).
And Fi, while sometimes kind, like with Fe, can be seen as dangerously illogical, and feelings that are too self-centric. It's even worse when they get projected. For example I felt so disturbed one time when my ESTJ tech teacher projected Fi and Si onto me. He tried to instill the value of integrity in me, and even make me look it up in a dictionary, which I thought would be totally unproductive and useless, feeling competent in my own values (Ti). Apparently his Te didn't see my Ti as competence. I felt so ready to kill him for not just thinking like I do. He motivated our small class of 4 with Te, when Ti-Fe would've been a much better motivation for us.
My ENFJ teachers on the other hand, have been some of the most well-meaning and understanding teachers around (probably also because they knew better about my aspergers). I may have questioned their sense of fairness from time to time, but they still haven't let me down, insisting that they are indeed being fair.
Generally, I see the 1st and 2nd functions as the persona functions, the 3rd and 4th functions as the "discipline" functions (for Js, loosening up should be their way of becoming more "disciplined"), the 5th and 6th functions as the "paranoia" functions, and the 7th and 8th functions as the "bewilderment" functions.
I must admit, I am particularly unfond of ESFJs.... But I wouldn't call them evil- they just tend not to have any morality at all....
I would actually be very inclined to agree with you- in particular the ESFJ I knew based her morality off of soap operas. When she was pregnant she started having an affair to get back at her husband- just gross on so many levels. I think she was attempting to torture her husband. She watched soap operas constantly- man, she was a truly horrible person. She lied like crazy too.
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I have absolutely no problem with ESTJs. The one I know I really love for their directness. Candid and never false or beating around the bush...so refreshing!!! And they're one of the most efficient helpful people I know. I like many Te doms. One of my closest friends is an ENTJ. Granted we're different but we have mutual respect. ESFJs I know aren't immoral. They're very caring. Sometimes too self sacrificing from my experience. Si doms ISFJs I love.
Generally speaking I'd say I'm largely unaware of Si. I'm highly internally untraditional, unpatriotic in a way that I feel it no more than coincidental where I was born...I'm not one to feel like I'm very tied to my family either in some highly emotional way "These are my roots" kinda way, though I love many members of my family. I have crap memory...though at the same time I have great memory XD...just not for things like "Is this the street where I live???". To me it really is just plain an UNUSED function.
I don't think I'd call Si in any way "demonic" though, or evil. Just ???.
As for Te:I have lots of respect for many Te doms. I really like INTJs too. From what I understand many INFJs feel a kinship with the Te aux Ni-doms, so I'm not alone in this. ;D Te, also, nice but odd, to me. I admire it from afar...I don't know how it works but hey, It's cool.
I'd give the prize for the difficult function as dominant to Se:
All the people I've had actual serious problems with in real life have been ESTPs (I don't know if I know any ESFPs. I would think so though) In any case it's the ESTPs whom I've been friends with, am friends with, are also the only people I can say have genuinely given me grief and directly contributed heavily to me actually holing myself up in my house happy if I never saw people again for some time. One (no longer a friend) of them makes the Tori Amos song Waitress start playing in my mental stereo if I ever even think about them with the line "but I believe in peace.... b&%%€h!!!"
Furthermore...just cause I like pain I guess...I'd like to add I just don't buy the "Se doms never manifest the negative sides to their Se because it's their most developed function". I see it liking to the undeniable shameful fact that I too, sometimes, act like a superstitious, gullible, quackish, Ni nutcase. Ni is my most developed function but I've definitely been into stuff that put me on a high level of Ni-sanity periodically :tinfoil3:, where I'm just a tad too far up in my own ethereal behind. I think it's a learning thing. Requires an extraordinary amount of mistakes, learning.
In real life the actual ESTPs I have known have acted like unscrupulous lemmings much more often than is kosher. That's just objective fact. It goes beyond any "Oh I don't like Se dom ESTPs because I'm a spiritual, super moral, condescending INFJ :drama:, who on occasion is ashamed of acting like a lemming and projects their own lemmingness on ESTPs who are never lemmings, but refined Se conosseurs who'd never stoop". Look at the track record and my close ESTP friends' reads like steal your friends boyfriend once...shame on you...twice...three times...make out with multiple friends boyfriends when they're out of town....fool around with your spouse's friends once...twice...three times...four times... Manipulate people to turn them against someone once...mean...on me...well that sure wasn't fun...on my replacement...untill the bullied parties are nervous wrecks and have a suspect reputation...all this for disagreeing with you too many times...have two of your best friends call you a "sociopath" behind your back...It's just not mere coincidence. All points to something unscrupulous. It's like people calling me impractical and airy fairy. Unfair yet I can connect the dots to me.
I also confess 100% to acting like a lemming sometimes. I act like a lemming very infrequently. In grand lemming spurts. In the got-plastered-fell-into-a-ditch way...:flame: :crutch::crutch:. My ESTP friend acted like a lemming :rockon: for a decade until they realized acting like a lemming is not nice. It hurts people around you. Now they've matured and lead a nice non-lemming like existence, are very giving and open, warm and protective of their loved ones, just blossomed into a warm glowing lovely person.
Most of the time however my inferior Se manifests in very normal ways: I just buy shoes or paint a landscape, or enjoy playing speed demon on jet ski.. In comparison My close ESTP friend that I love is into Paolo Coelho and reads spiritual books recreationally and at least two other I know do occasional Tarot readings. Would I say their attempt at Ni type of fair is doomed to be moorish? I really wouldn't and I'm not going to say I am always either, though as INFJs go I'm from the moorish end of the spectrum, I suspect.
I genuinely think Ni-doms should take a long hard Zen like look at the absolute gritty realities and learn to see the beauty in no frills reality of the sensory nature...the beauty of just eating an orange kind of a thing....and vice versa Se doms could really use some vision and the incredible in their meat and potatoes ways and be more open to the way sometimes things are not quite what they seem. Both could teach each other a thing or two to enrich their lives. ---->Aspirational function.
:becky:
...I think I better prepare myself for the inevitable responses :behindsofa::brick:
Generally speaking I'd say I'm largely unaware of Si. I'm highly internally untraditional, unpatriotic in a way that I feel it no more than coincidental where I was born...I'm not one to feel like I'm very tied to my family either in some highly emotional way "These are my roots" kinda way, though I love many members of my family. I have crap memory...though at the same time I have great memory XD...just not for things like "Is this the street where I live???". To me it really is just plain an UNUSED function.
I don't think I'd call Si in any way "demonic" though, or evil. Just ???.
As for Te:I have lots of respect for many Te doms. I really like INTJs too. From what I understand many INFJs feel a kinship with the Te aux Ni-doms, so I'm not alone in this. ;D Te, also, nice but odd, to me. I admire it from afar...I don't know how it works but hey, It's cool.
I'd give the prize for the difficult function as dominant to Se:
All the people I've had actual serious problems with in real life have been ESTPs (I don't know if I know any ESFPs. I would think so though) In any case it's the ESTPs whom I've been friends with, am friends with, are also the only people I can say have genuinely given me grief and directly contributed heavily to me actually holing myself up in my house happy if I never saw people again for some time. One (no longer a friend) of them makes the Tori Amos song Waitress start playing in my mental stereo if I ever even think about them with the line "but I believe in peace.... b&%%€h!!!"
Furthermore...just cause I like pain I guess...I'd like to add I just don't buy the "Se doms never manifest the negative sides to their Se because it's their most developed function". I see it liking to the undeniable shameful fact that I too, sometimes, act like a superstitious, gullible, quackish, Ni nutcase. Ni is my most developed function but I've definitely been into stuff that put me on a high level of Ni-sanity periodically :tinfoil3:, where I'm just a tad too far up in my own ethereal behind. I think it's a learning thing. Requires an extraordinary amount of mistakes, learning.
In real life the actual ESTPs I have known have acted like unscrupulous lemmings much more often than is kosher. That's just objective fact. It goes beyond any "Oh I don't like Se dom ESTPs because I'm a spiritual, super moral, condescending INFJ :drama:, who on occasion is ashamed of acting like a lemming and projects their own lemmingness on ESTPs who are never lemmings, but refined Se conosseurs who'd never stoop". Look at the track record and my close ESTP friends' reads like steal your friends boyfriend once...shame on you...twice...three times...make out with multiple friends boyfriends when they're out of town....fool around with your spouse's friends once...twice...three times...four times... Manipulate people to turn them against someone once...mean...on me...well that sure wasn't fun...on my replacement...untill the bullied parties are nervous wrecks and have a suspect reputation...all this for disagreeing with you too many times...have two of your best friends call you a "sociopath" behind your back...It's just not mere coincidence. All points to something unscrupulous. It's like people calling me impractical and airy fairy. Unfair yet I can connect the dots to me.
I also confess 100% to acting like a lemming sometimes. I act like a lemming very infrequently. In grand lemming spurts. In the got-plastered-fell-into-a-ditch way...:flame: :crutch::crutch:. My ESTP friend acted like a lemming :rockon: for a decade until they realized acting like a lemming is not nice. It hurts people around you. Now they've matured and lead a nice non-lemming like existence, are very giving and open, warm and protective of their loved ones, just blossomed into a warm glowing lovely person.
Most of the time however my inferior Se manifests in very normal ways: I just buy shoes or paint a landscape, or enjoy playing speed demon on jet ski.. In comparison My close ESTP friend that I love is into Paolo Coelho and reads spiritual books recreationally and at least two other I know do occasional Tarot readings. Would I say their attempt at Ni type of fair is doomed to be moorish? I really wouldn't and I'm not going to say I am always either, though as INFJs go I'm from the moorish end of the spectrum, I suspect.
I genuinely think Ni-doms should take a long hard Zen like look at the absolute gritty realities and learn to see the beauty in no frills reality of the sensory nature...the beauty of just eating an orange kind of a thing....and vice versa Se doms could really use some vision and the incredible in their meat and potatoes ways and be more open to the way sometimes things are not quite what they seem. Both could teach each other a thing or two to enrich their lives. ---->Aspirational function.
:becky:
...I think I better prepare myself for the inevitable responses :behindsofa::brick:
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I don't really feel like any of the functions are evil or dislike it when others use them... but I think I do feel very sick with myself if I use too much Fe. Or is it Te? I'm not an expert on this stuff. I do know that it annoys me when people neglect Fe though.
Edit: nvm it's not Te; I love using Te
People who either neglect or over-do Ti also annoy me. I just don't like it when people don't notice that they're either being overly bimbo-y/unfocused/insincerely gushy/vapid, or overly niche/analytical, in their communication.
Edit: nvm it's not Te; I love using Te
People who either neglect or over-do Ti also annoy me. I just don't like it when people don't notice that they're either being overly bimbo-y/unfocused/insincerely gushy/vapid, or overly niche/analytical, in their communication.
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As for Te:I have lots of respect for many Te doms. I really like INTJs too. From what I understand many INFJs feel a kinship with the Te aux Ni-doms, so I'm not alone in this. ;D Te, also, nice but odd, to me. I admire it from afar...I don't know how it works but hey, It's cool.
I'd give the prize for the difficult function as dominant to Se:
All the people I've had actual serious problems with in real life have been ESTPs
I am in a most depressing battle with an ESTP now and I too think that my most serious problems seem to be associated with depressed ESTPs who are usually highly antagonistic; I tend to like ESFPs though so I do not think the problems are purely Se related. Well adjusted ESTPs are a thing of great beauty.
However, as much as Se (ESTPs) has been problematic for me, I tend to associate evil with Si. There is just something about Si that seems so deeply dark to me and tends to vaguely and intuitively remind me of the psychotic and Victorian asylums and Si dominants and the INXPs can often seem really disconnected from actual reality in a rather profound and destructive way.
I think I associate evil with lack of self reflection and I have honestly never met a Si type that is capable of deep self reflection. Yet the function that arouses the deepest pure anger in me is Fi (seems like I am always being efficiently stabbed in the back by a Fi type) even though I do not consider Fi evil and dark as I can do Si. Most of my friends and people I would like to be friends with do have primary or secondary Si so I can deal with Si when the overall person is 'healthy'.
I wish I had better Te sometimes, it seems like such a useful function, Fe can seem pretty useless to me in more situations than Te. I notice that when I am unhappy, I tend to blame all my problems on my lack of Te.
I have in the past had trouble with ESFJs and lying but one of my closest friends is an ESFJ and she is the most kind and honest person one is likely to meet. We have been friends for years and believe me, no 'flaw' in a person escapes my notice for long and I still marvel at her integrity and decency which I think far surpasses mine. More than any other type, I think the quality of the ESFJ you get is greatly dependent on their upbringing and the moral qualities of their early caregivers/parents. Little ESFJs truly are little sponges who turn later into big mirrors.
I would tend to agree with you- I think one of my very close friends that I have been unable to type might be an ESFJ as well. The other was very extreme
Reminds me of the conflictor in socionics. In high school, estjs would piss me off more than anything due to communication. Now, I make it a point to try to communicate well with them and have a good estj friend, and a few at work whom I have good relations with. The couple in high school I had problems with was due to immaturity on both ends. I dont think any type cant have a good relationship with another type, or help expand their worldview.
Regarding confliction, with you're describing as the evil function, I've seen a few people dating their conflictor type- istp and enfp, intp and esfp are the ones I've seen up close.
Regarding confliction, with you're describing as the evil function, I've seen a few people dating their conflictor type- istp and enfp, intp and esfp are the ones I've seen up close.
That's what I call the MBTI conflictor. It's different from Socionics, and in fact, if the ISTP is an ISTp/SLI dating an ENFp/IEE (likewise with the INTP), then the relation isn't one of conflict, but one of duality.
The INFJ in MBTI is more similar to the INFp in socionics, with both of them being dominant Ni-Fe. From another thread:
ISTp in Socionics is Si-Te, so that aligns with ISTJ in MBTI. The ISTp's dual IS the ENFp. The ISTj's (ISTP in MBTI) dual is the ENFJ.
Look at their dominant functions, not their name.