The coming storm against INFJ's... | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

The coming storm against INFJ's...

What is a conspiracy theory?

What conclusions are you talking about?

For me it's like a conspiracy theory... You have some facts and make a big tragic story out of them.

And concerning the conclusions I was talking about... Firstly, in this one video that was posted I didn't see any bashing of INFJs. EJarendee was just talking about our inferior function, and (if you believe in the MBTI theory, which I have to assume now) this is really something most of us INFJs have to develop. I didn't see any judgement in this video. But even if there was such a video being offensive towards INFJs, or even if all socionics-believers think that INFJs are losers, doesn't have to mean that we'll end up in a society ridden by hatred towards Idealists or INFJs. There is really a big gap between the facts and the dystopian vision that one can draw out of them.
 
This forum is full of people complaining about the system or their work place or their debt or their bosses or any number of problems about our world

Well who shapes our world?

This article has been posted before (i'm pretty sure it was by @say what )

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/11/06/this-is-how-much-money-youll-make-based-on-your-personality/

This Is How Much Money You’ll Make Based on Your Personality

Surprise, surprise: the more self-motivated and driven you are, the more money you'll make.


If you spent a lot of time on the Internet as a teen, you’ve taken approximately a bajillion personality tests. At least one was probably the hugely popular Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, which sorts people into 16 different groups with 4-letter names.
The test, based off of Jungian psychiatry and developed by mother-daughter author duo Katharine Cooks Briggs and Isabelle Myers Briggs in 1962, is supposed to tell you if you are introverted or extraverted, intuitive or sensing, thinking or feeling and perceptive or judgmental. Each combination–INFJ or ESTP, for example–is representative of different characteristics, behaviors and preferences.
The types can then be divided into four groups: artisans, guardians, idealists and rationalists.
Web Talent, careerassessmentsite.com

Career Assessment Site, maintained by Jonathan Bollag, recently published an in-depth infographic that shows exactly how much money different personality types will likely make in their lives.
Web Talent, careerassessmentsite.com

Unsurprisingly it’s ENTJs, who are known to be outgoing, self-motivated, driven and competitive, who earn the highest household income by a landslide, averaging over $80,000 per household. Meanwhile the artistic crowd, like shy and emotional INFPs, are the lowest earners, averaging around $60,000.
You can see the full Myers-Briggs infographic here.
Correction: The link to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test has been modified to link to mbticomplete.com.

mbti-personality-types.gif


Interesting! Pay is often associated with education, and the education as a whole seem rather low... I wonder if this is more the fact that tradtional education doesn't lend well to certain personalities!
 
For me it's like a conspiracy theory... You have some facts and make a big tragic story out of them.

What facts are you talking about....what conspiracy are you talking about....you are being very vague

Look if you have an issue with something i've said then tell me what the thing is otherwise it just sounds like a general grumble

And concerning the conclusions I was talking about... Firstly, in this one video that was posted I didn't see any bashing of INFJs.

The OP has siad he has seen videos this guy has said about INFJ's....i personally have seen videos this guy has posted here where he is telling INFJ's how INFJ's are except he gets it wrong

Unfortunately i can't find the key thread i'm thinking of (my back posts only go to 20 pages) and i think the thread might have been deleted

EJarendee was just talking about our inferior function, and (if you believe in the MBTI theory, which I have to assume now) this is really something most of us INFJs have to develop. I didn't see any judgement in this video. But even if there was such a video being offensive towards INFJs, or even if all socionics-believers think that INFJs are losers, doesn't have to mean that we'll end up in a society ridden by hatred towards Idealists or INFJs. There is really a big gap between the facts and the dystopian vision that one can draw out of them.

Concerning his videos...don't you think you should watch more before you make a judgement?

Concerning what i'm saying about a backlash against INFJ's it is tying into what the OP is saying for example about socionics

The centrally controlled state in the USSR DID use psychometric testing as a way to weed out people who were potentially divergent from the wishes of the state so the OP has a point. It also ties into what i have heard about the new ODD disorder in the west

If you want to know the role psychology plays in shaping our society i strongly recommend the documentary by BBC journalist Adam Curtis called 'the century of the self' which can be found online

I think if you aren't willing to watch such things and potentially expand your understanding then i think you might want to reconsider accusing people of making up theories because you won't know whether they are theories or not
 
Interesting! Pay is often associated with education, and the education as a whole seem rather low... I wonder if this is more the fact that tradtional education doesn't lend well to certain personalities!

Was it you that first posted that?
 
Was it you that first posted that?

I haven't seen this before- so I don't think it was me! But I have posted things on job recruitment and job advancement and MBTI!

I think these are interesting stats, and I do think that the job market and education more are more favourable to certain personalities, which is unfortunate.

I'm super surprised at the average education - it seems so low. An undergrad is almost a norm now! I wonder what would happen if this same survey selected individuals with an undergrad - would you find that certain personalities types are more represented? What happens once they graduate, if you control for discipline variations, would we still see certain personalities making less?

Income is an interesting thing to look at, because SO many things impact it - job, education, race, gender, age, health....it's interesting to think about how MBTI could be a potentially new variable that influences income!
 
I think it can be used by the corporations in their psychometric testing as it is to discriminate against certain types over who they hire and don't hire but it can also be used by people in general to gain a greater understanding of the diversity between people

If you know why someone is a certain way then you can potentially be a little more tolerant of them

Carl Jung who noticed many of these patterns interviewed thousands of people over his lifetime...that gives a massive sample base so in scientific terms that does add some credibility to his views

I think living in denial about things like introversion and extroversion will not improve relations between people

Growing up i didn't know about these things and tried to fit into the extrovert ideal...i wish i had known about this stuff sooner

I think MBTI can be used to make people more comfortable in their own skin

However i do wonder what people who don't believe in MBTI hope to get from an MBTI forum?
Hey man, take it slower :D
I am at the current position because I come to understand some things, by reading alot of stuffs. I am gone give you a few of them:
1. INFJs are known in the history either as: a) melancholics (in this category also INTJs are) and b) idealistic dreamers (or just dreamers)
2. Intuition is not something special and magic...its usualy mean in history "contemplation", or "meditation". Check Plato, Aristotle, Begson, Leibniz, and see how clearly and beautifuly explained what intuition means, compared to...Jung. Who was really off the mark when he said Introverted Intuition is a "Voice", and the mother of all wonders and bla bla bla.
3. Ti and Te is usualy known as...logic...or common sense. So again, there is nothing special about it...every person in this world, unless is not mentaly faulty, can learn to use it efficiently.
4. Se means ...practicality, relying on "first-hand" information. Nothink big and special again, nothing "scientific" about it..

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that people, for a long time, already knew most of the psychological "discoveries", in lay man terms, not in tricky words.
I think MBTI can be used to make people more comfortable in their own skin
possibly yes. The bad thing is that it makes them too confortable sometimes, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.

However i do wonder what people who don't believe in MBTI hope to get from an MBTI forum?
Its a good life learning experience...especialy if you go into that place twice...
 
Thank you!!!!

First of all, people take Jung way too seriously. Second, they are taking pseudoscientific claims about personality in general, and then using that to justify a way to treat human beings based on their "type". It then becomes a battle based on false pretenses. Of course, don't be speak such blasphemies in an MBTI forum. That's like saying that Jesus was just a man in church.

I liked MBTI better when I answered 20 questions, got a type with a cute little picture of a person holding a paint brush, or a test tube, or a picture of a person wiping a baby's behind.
Psychology is not science at all...it is pseudo-science, or...junk(Jung?) science.
If you check the history of psychology, you'll see how many absurdities they had made, starting from the temperamental theory(Hypocrate), to oedipus complex in Freud's theory.
 
Hey man, take it slower :D
I am at the current position because I come to understand some things, by reading alot of stuffs. I am gone give you a few of them:
1. INFJs are known in the history either as: a) melancholics (in this category also INTJs are) and b) idealistic dreamers (or just dreamers)
2. Intuition is not something special and magic...its usualy mean in history "contemplation", or "meditation". Check Plato, Aristotle, Begson, Leibniz, and see how clearly and beautifuly explained what intuition means, compared to...Jung. Who was really off the mark when he said Introverted Intuition is a "Voice", and the mother of all wonders and bla bla bla.
3. Ti and Te is usualy known as...logic...or common sense. So again, there is nothing special about it...every person in this world, unless is not mentaly faulty, can learn to use it efficiently.
4. Se means ...practicality, relying on "first-hand" information. Nothink big and special again, nothing "scientific" about it..

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that people, for a long time, already knew most of the psychological "discoveries", in lay man terms, not in tricky words.

possibly yes. The bad thing is that it makes them too confortable sometimes, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.


Its a good life learning experience...especialy if you go into that place twice...

Concerning the alchemy of cognitive functions.....if the product is special then the alchemy is 'special'

Try to quanitfy intuition...you'll find it is an ephemeral and yet powerful thing

If you don't know what the nature of reality is....how can you know what the limits of intuition are?

Psychology works on samples....jung had a large sample base....that gives it some scientific credibility

More people have done research on these things since

If you believe in extroverts and introverts then you are already on the same path as Jung
 
What facts are you talking about....what conspiracy are you talking about....you are being very vague

Look if you have an issue with something i've said then tell me what the thing is otherwise it just sounds like a general grumble

I don't have an issue with what you've said, it's more about the first post in this thread. And I explained the facts and the conclusions in my last thread. If this isn't clear enough, I can still show you the passages in the first post that I think are exaggerated, but I don't particularly like puzzling such tiny details.


The OP has siad he has seen videos this guy has said about INFJ's....i personally have seen videos this guy has posted here where he is telling INFJ's how INFJ's are except he gets it wrong

Unfortunately i can't find the key thread i'm thinking of (my back posts only go to 20 pages) and i think the thread might have been deleted

Concerning his videos...don't you think you should watch more before you make a judgement?

Actually, I did watch a lot of them. Maybe I didn't watch the particular ones you talked about, the ones that are supposedly offensive towards INFJs. But as I already said, even if there are such videos and even if EJarendee doesn't have a high opinion of INFJs, this doesn't mean that our society will develop in the same direction.

Concerning what i'm saying about a backlash against INFJ's it is tying into what the OP is saying for example about socionics

The centrally controlled state in the USSR DID use psychometric testing as a way to weed out people who were potentially divergent from the wishes of the state so the OP has a point. It also ties into what i have heard about the new ODD disorder in the west

If you want to know the role psychology plays in shaping our society i strongly recommend the documentary by BBC journalist Adam Curtis called 'the century of the self' which can be found online

Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't want to understate the significance of that UDSSR socionics thing. I just mean that in my experience (could be that you have had a different experience), socionics isn't such a big thing in comparison to MBTI. I don't say that it's completely irrelevant, but as I've experienced it there are far more people who know something about MBTI than about socionics. Actually, I don't know what it's like in other cultures today, I live in Western culture and don't have enough information about the others. But in my environment - in my experience - I cannot see that coming storm against INFJs. Most of the people that I know don't even know about MBTI, let alone socionics, and 99% of the people who know about it don't have anything against INFJs, INFPs or whatever. There are always some people who are ignorant about certain things, there is for example much bias concerning the S/N dichotomy, but this is not the majority. As I said, there is certainly some truth in the first post, I never said anything else. But I think it's exaggerated.
 
Psychology is not science at all...it is pseudo-science, or...junk(Jung?) science.
If you check the history of psychology, you'll see how many absurdities they had made, starting from the temperamental theory(Hypocrate), to oedipus complex in Freud's theory.

There is logic and there is abstraction....which one will find the answers to our reality?

Should either write off the other?
 
I don't have an issue with what you've said, it's more about the first post in this thread. And I explained the facts and the conclusions in my last thread. If this isn't clear enough, I can still show you the passages in the first post that I think are exaggerated, but I don't particularly like puzzling such tiny details.




Actually, I did watch a lot of them. Maybe I didn't watch the particular ones you talked about, the ones that are supposedly offensive towards INFJs. But as I already said, even if there are such videos and even if EJarendee doesn't have a high opinion of INFJs, this doesn't mean that our society will develop in the same direction.



Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't want to understate the significance of that UDSSR socionics thing. I just mean that in my experience (could be that you have had a different experience), socionics isn't such a big thing in comparison to MBTI. I don't say that it's completely irrelevant, but as I've experienced it there are far more people who know something about MBTI than about socionics. Actually, I don't know what it's like in other cultures today, I live in Western culture and don't have enough information about the others. But in my environment - in my experience - I cannot see that coming storm against INFJs. Most of the people that I know don't even know about MBTI, let alone socionics, and 99% of the people who know about it don't have anything against INFJs, INFPs or whatever. There are always some people who are ignorant about certain things, there is for example much bias concerning the S/N dichotomy, but this is not the majority. As I said, there is certainly some truth in the first post, I never said anything else. But I think it's exaggerated.

Here's a post i made in another related thread looking at the wider implications of all this (eg psychometric testing)

Sadly there is a void of understanding in our society due to engineered ignorance

There most certainly IS a bias agaisnt introversion

Further to this it is part of a coherent policy formulated by people in power due to the influence of pervasive schools of thought such as the Frankfurt School

This group came out of nazi germany across to the US and was studying the psychology of society and of authority

After the second world war our leaders conducted the biggest psychological study the world had seen due to their concerns over a number of things. One concern was over how the vast majority of troops coming home unfit for service where not coming back due to physical injury but mental injury.

Of course the elites denied the various psychological effects of warfare on people for example denying 'shell shock' during WWI even going as far as shooting young lads (who had lied about their age to join up) for desertion

In the second wiorld war they denied the existence of post traumatic stress disorder and in the recent gulf war (the first one) they denied the existence of gulf war syndrome (caused by injections they gave to their troops)

So this psychological study was conducted and the elites tried to figure out the best way to keep control of society. They believed due to the work of Sigmund Freud that beneath the veneer of civilisation was a boiling mess of violence just waiting to burst out (on them in revolutionary form)

If you are interested in this please don't take my opinion on it. A very good documentary by BBC journalist Adam Curtis covers this; its called 'The Century of the Self' and you can watch it here:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

The result of this huge study was the creation of a categorisation system called the DSM which lists whatever the elites deem to be a 'disorder'

The importantn thing to bare in mind is that the agenda of the elites is not to keep everyone healthy and happy (cos if it were they would share the wealth around) the agenda of the elite is to keep everyone down and themselves on top.

So if they see behaviours which they deem a threat to their control for example they see people protesting for better safety conditions at work then they can deem the behavioural traits of that person(s) a 'disorder' and this gives them the ability under their own laws to then lock up that person and medicate them to shut them up

An example of this occuring was when the authorities locked up the writer Ezra Pound because he was speaking out against the elite that is running the banking system. Whilst incarcerated Pound (who edited and assisted with the works of famous writers such as T.S.Eliot and Ernst Hemingway) commissioned a man called Eustice Mullins to look into who runs the Federal reserve bank and therefore who is exerting massive influence over the US economy

Mullins can be heard speaking on youtube

The people who are running the Federal Reserve are also controlling the education system and the psychiatric system as well. They created the DSM system of categorisation. if you doubt this then use the incredible resource that is the internet and research it for yourself. A good place to start would be the Rockefeller family (eg Rockefeller foundation, Rockefeller university, london school of economics, standard oil, chase manhatten bank etc etc)

One trait that the elites have found occurs often in the people (and leaders of movements) who challenge the system is INTROVERSION

They are deeply threatened by introversion

This is why they have sought to make introversion and the behavioural traits associated with it as negative or as 'disorders'. They recently tried to expand the DSM categorisation to count shyness as a mental illness: http://www.bps.org.uk/news/dsm-5-shyness-mental-illness

So why is this a problem?

The problem is that they are creating a system in which many introverts don't feel they can be themselves (it becomes easier with age to resists that)

Further to that it gives them wide powers to suppress dissent to their rule

Why changes to the law that undermine civil liberties are dangerous for freedom lovers is because even if there isn't a problem initially then there might be one as the situation changes. An example of this would be:

The recent NDAA which authorised the detention without trial and torture of US citiznes by the military. That might be ok at the moment but what happens if the elites then change labour laws and insist on a 14 hour working day without holidays (like they did in the industrial revolution)? When people protest against that they can be called 'terrorists' and locked up or they can be deemed to have a 'mental disorder' and can be silenced with detention and medication

The NDAA has been opposed in court by the US journalist and INTROVERT Chris Hedges, among others. It has been blocked by Judge Forrest otherwie it would have come into being

So when people say things like 'there's no bias against introverts' or 'that's just introvert whining' then ask them if they have ever heard of the Frankfurt School and what they are about.
 
Psychology is not science at all...it is pseudo-science, or...junk(Jung?) science.
If you check the history of psychology, you'll see how many absurdities they had made, starting from the temperamental theory(Hypocrate), to oedipus complex in Freud's theory.

I wouldn't consider Psychology as pseudo-science. You can find absurdities in the history of every science. The scientific method is crucial, and Psychology uses the scientific method in order to predict human behavior.
MBTI however can be considered as a pseudo-science, since the descriptions are rather vague and the theory of the Cognitive functions could never be proven to be right scientifically. It's the same with many other personality theories, except maybe Big Five which seems to be the most scientific of them all.
 
There is logic and there is abstraction....which one will find the answers to our reality?

Should either write off the other?
logic is abstract...
 
I wouldn't consider Psychology as pseudo-science. You can find absurdities in the history of every science. The scientific method is crucial, and Psychology uses the scientific method in order to predict human behavior.
MBTI however can be considered as a pseudo-science, since the descriptions are rather vague and the theory of the Cognitive functions could never be proven to be right scientifically. It's the same with many other personality theories, except maybe Big Five which seems to be the most scientific of them all.
psychology uses the "scientific method"? Althought I heard many to claim this, I thought they say it mostly as a hope, that "one day maybe" psychology would be some kind of science.
But at the actual state of affairs, I myself have to be CRAZY to think that psychology is science, or it has anything to do with "the scientific method". But this is just me and my opinion...the world is a big place.
 
So when people say things like 'there's no bias against introverts' or 'that's just introvert whining' then ask them if they have ever heard of the Frankfurt School and what they are about.

I never said that there isn't a bias against introverts. There certainly is, and I guess all of us have experienced it at least once in their life. But this is society. There always is bias against something, and this won't change in the future. This is dangerous, of course, but it doesn't have that much to do with MBTI, I think. And bias changes over the time - maybe you know that Bestseller, "The Power of Introverts"? It's a sign that this introversion bias may be a subject to change in the future. Society is a collection of common biases. In the past, there was bias against black people, jewish people, whatever, now it's against introverts and other stuff. People will always have their prejudices. I don't think this is good, I'm not happy with the current state, but I think that this bias may disappear in the future like most of the others did, too, and be replaced with something different.
 
psychology uses the "scientific method"? Althought I heard many to claim this, I thought they say it mostly as a hope, that "one day maybe" psychology would be some kind of science.
But at the actual state of affairs, I myself have to be CRAZY to think that psychology is science, or it has anything to do with "the scientific method". But this is just me and my opinion...the world is a big place.

Um.. what about statistics about humans is not scientific? Psychology uses data, statistics and experiments to draw conclusions, like the other sciences do, too. It's even empirical. Of course, you can't predict human behavior with 100% probablitly, but you can be pretty sure about most of it. And Psychology works in many ways like Medicine - it looks what does work against certain illnesses, and this works in many cases. The problem about Psychology is that we still don't know that much about the Human brain which makes it difficult to predict certain things. But as I said, the scientific method is important, and Psychology is using it.
 
I never said that there isn't a bias against introverts. There certainly is, and I guess all of us have experienced it at least once in their life. But this is society. There always is bias against something, and this won't change in the future. This is dangerous, of course, but it doesn't have that much to do with MBTI, I think. And bias changes over the time - maybe you know that Bestseller, "The Power of Introverts"? It's a sign that this introversion bias may be a subject to change in the future. Society is a collection of common biases. In the past, there was bias against black people, jewish people, whatever, now it's against introverts and other stuff. People will always have their prejudices. I don't think this is good, I'm not happy with the current state, but I think that this bias may disappear in the future like most of the others did, too, and be replaced with something different.

Things are indeed in flux which is why people should never say ''that's just the way things are''

There are reasons for why things are the way they are
 
Last edited:
I mean in the sense of:
difficult to understand; abstruse v's reasonable; to be expected

Mind is abstract, information is abstract (except sensory information)...perception is abstract, and that includes intuition and logic.
 
Um.. what about statistics about humans is not scientific? Psychology uses data, statistics and experiments to draw conclusions, like the other sciences do, too. It's even empirical. Of course, you can't predict human behavior with 100% probablitly, but you can be pretty sure about most of it. And Psychology works in many ways like Medicine - it looks what does work against certain illnesses, and this works in many cases. The problem about Psychology is that we still don't know that much about the Human brain which makes it difficult to predict certain things. But as I said, the scientific method is important, and Psychology is using it.
In my understanding, there is nothing scientific about psychology.
Hovewer, if something si not scientific, it doesn't mean is bad or wrong. After all, what we're arguing here is not scientific...

With the distinction that psychology is not scientific, and there is nothing really known with certainty in this field, watching the history of psychology is really painful, to be honest. What can be said with certainty is this: psychology is descriptive, not prescritptive. And secondly, psychology often confuses the psyche of a man with his morality...which is really something very unprofessional and very inaccurate.