Strong Ti in INFJ | INFJ Forum

Strong Ti in INFJ

INFJok

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Nov 27, 2012
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So I've been reading up on INFJ...again and there are a few things that I don't identify with.

- prone to crying alot
- co-dependency
- emotional first, thinking 2nd
- creative

First off, I don't cry over spilt milk, but I did cry alot during childhood.
Secondly, I'm not co-dependent. If someone shows that there a wolf in sheep's clothing, I disappear! (a Virgo thing,eh?)

I don't act out emotionally until I'm done internalizing a bunch, then I explode. I think 24/7 when I talk or not I'm CONSTANTLY thinking to an extint to where I question if I have emotions or not.
And last I'm not creative like I used to be unless it's jokes or putting colors together for my eyeshadow that day.

I've been through alot of let downs, abuse and shock to where I just don't feel anymore, unless I know someone's up to no good!

Is this normal for other INFJs whose Ti is used often?
 
Okay, no, first of all, I would like to know where on earth did you get this description of an INFJ? Is this from a piece of literature or some hackneyed forum post?

Second of all, types are described by processes, not traits. For example, you can have emotional INFPs and you can have stoic INFPs. The same applies to INFJs and every other type out there. People are people.
 
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Is this normal for other INFJs whose Ti is used often?
I think differences in enneagram types are the culprit.

The artistic, emotionally sensitive, creative INFJs are the 4s. This happens to be the most common e-type among INFJs so most of the INFJ profiles have been written based on INFJ 4s. If you take a look at this study correlating enneagram types with Big 5 parameters (bottom of page 15) it shows that 4s tend to score low on emotional stability: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/SHLresearch.pdf Being in image triad 4s also strive to create a certain image of themselves that highlights their uniqueness and draws attention to them.

I am 1w9 myself and don't identify with any of those traits from INFJ profiles either. I'm emotionally stable and overall undemonstrative and more given to rationalization rather than "emotionalization". May be you are e1 too?
 
I think differences in enneagram types are the culprit.

The artistic, emotionally sensitive, creative INFJs are the 4s. This happens to be the most common e-type among INFJs so most of the INFJ profiles have been written based on INFJ 4s. If you take a look at this study correlating enneagram types with Big 5 parameters (bottom of page 15) it shows that 4s tend to score low on emotional stability: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/SHLresearch.pdf Being in image triad 4s also strive to create a certain image of themselves that highlights their uniqueness and draws attention to them.

I am 1w9 myself and don't identify with any of those traits from INFJ profiles either. I'm emotionally stable and overall undemonstrative and more given to rationalization rather than "emotionalization". May be you are e1 too?

Re-iterating [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]'s question... Where are you guys reading the descriptions that INFJs are emotionally unstable or co-dependent or other such ridiculous nonsense?

I've typed up and posted the official profile from MBTI here:

http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23809
 
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Description of the Enneagram 4 (from www.enneagraminstitute.com). Take it as you will, and only if you follow Enneagram type function. To be fair, people are only as insane or crazy as they want to be. Not all folks are the same, and no one type should be assumed to fit in a category. We're all individuals.

With that being said, E4 (long description):

_____

Healthy Fours are honest with themselves: they own all of their feelings and can look at their motives, contradictions, and emotional conflicts without denying or whitewashing them. They may not necessarily like what they discover, but they do not try to rationalize their states, nor do they try to hide them from themselves or others. They are not afraid to see themselves “warts and all.” Healthy Fours are willing to reveal highly personal and potentially shameful things about themselves because they are determined to understand the truth of their experience–so that they can discover who they are and come to terms with their emotional history. This ability also enables Fours to endure suffering with a quiet strength. Their familiarity with their own darker nature makes it easier for them to process painful experiences that might overwhelm other types.

Nevertheless, Fours often report that they feel they are missing something in themselves, although they may have difficulty identifying exactly what that “something” is. Is it will power? Social ease? Self-confidence? Emotional tranquility?–all of which they see in others, seemingly in abundance. Given time and sufficient perspective, Fours generally recognize that they are unsure about aspects of their self-image–their personality or ego-structure itself. They feel that they lack a clear and stable identity, particularly a social persona that they feel comfortable with.

While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The “romantics” of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world. If, over time, such validation remains out of reach, Fours begin to build their identity around how unlike everyone else they are. The outsider therefore comforts herself by becoming an insistent individualist: everything must be done on her own, in her own way, on her own terms. Fours’ mantra becomes “I am myself. Nobody understands me. I am different and special,” while they secretly wish they could enjoy the easiness and confidence that others seem to enjoy.

Fours typically have problems with a negative self-image and chronically low self-esteem. They attempt to compensate for this by cultivating a Fantasy Self–an idealized self-image which is built up primarily in their imaginations. A Four we know shared with us that he spent most of his spare time listening to classical music while fantasizing about being a great concert pianist–à la Vladimir Horowitz. Unfortunately, his commitment to practicing fell far short of his fantasized self-image, and he was often embarrassed when people asked him to play for them. His actual abilities, while not poor, became sources of shame.

In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions. Indeed, Fours accurately perceive a truth about human nature–that it is dynamic and ever changing. But because they want to create a stable, reliable identity from their emotions, they attempt to cultivate only certain feelings while rejecting others. Some feelings are seen as “me,” while others are “not me.” By attempting to hold on to specific moods and express others, Fours believe that they are being true to themselves.

One of the biggest challenges Fours face is learning to let go of feelings from the past; they tend to nurse wounds and hold onto negative feelings about those who have hurt them. Indeed, Fours can become so attached to longing and disappointment that they are unable to recognize the many treasures in their lives.

Leigh is a working mother who has struggled with these difficult feelings for many years.

“I collapse when I am out in the world. I have had a trail of relationship disasters. I have hated my sister’s goodness–and hated goodness in general. I went years without joy in my life, just pretending to smile because real smiles would not come to me. I have had a constant longing for whatever I cannot have. My longings can never become fulfilled because I now realize that I am attached to ‘the longing’ and not to any specific end result.”

There is a Sufi story that relates to this about an old dog that had been badly abused and was near starvation. One day, the dog found a bone, carried it to a safe spot, and started gnawing away. The dog was so hungry that it chewed on the bone for a long time and got every last bit of nourishment that it could out of it. After some time, a kind old man noticed the dog and its pathetic scrap and began quietly setting food out for it. But the poor hound was so attached to its bone that it refused to let go of it and soon starved to death.

Fours are in the same predicament. As long as they believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with them, they cannot allow themselves to experience or enjoy their many good qualities. To acknowledge their good qualities would be to lose their sense of identity (as a suffering victim) and to be without a relatively consistent personal identity (their Basic Fear). Fours grow by learning to see that much of their story is not true–or at least it is not true any more. The old feelings begin to fall away once they stop telling themselves their old tale: it is irrelevant to who they are right now.
 
For the record I'm an INFJ, Enneagram 9w1, and I'm also gray-A. So I don't fit into most INFJ boxes either. :)
 
Re-iterating [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]'s question... Where are you guys reading the descriptions that INFJs are emotionally unstable or co-dependent or other such ridiculous nonsense?
Typelogic for one, there are others:

"Extraverted feeling, the auxiliary deciding function, expresses a range of emotion and opinions of, for and about people. INFJs, like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor. Some vent the attending emotions in private, to trusted allies. Such confidants are chosen with care, for INFJs are well aware of the treachery that can reside in the hearts of mortals. This particular combination of introverted intuition and extraverted feeling provides INFJs with the raw material from which perceptive counselors are shaped."

Personality page is another highly referenced website for profiles:

"As an INFJ, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you take things in primarily via intuition. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit with your personal value system.

INFJs are gentle, caring, complex and highly intuitive individuals. Artistic and creative, they live in a world of hidden meanings and possibilities. Only one percent of the population has an INFJ Personality Type, making it the most rare of all the types.
...
But the INFJ is as genuinely warm as they are complex. INFJs hold a special place in the heart of people who they are close to, who are able to see their special gifts and depth of caring. INFJs are concerned for people's feelings, and try to be gentle to avoid hurting anyone. ... They have strong value systems, and need to live their lives in accordance with what they feel is right. In deference to the Feeling aspect of their personalities, INFJs are in some ways gentle and easy going."


I've typed up and posted the official profile from MBTI here:

http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23809
There is no "official INFJ profile" for MBTI. There are several websites and sources that come up if you google for MBTI-related info.
 
Typelogic for one, there are others:

"Extraverted feeling, the auxiliary deciding function, expresses a range of emotion and opinions of, for and about people. INFJs, like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor. Some vent the attending emotions in private, to trusted allies. Such confidants are chosen with care, for INFJs are well aware of the treachery that can reside in the hearts of mortals. This particular combination of introverted intuition and extraverted feeling provides INFJs with the raw material from which perceptive counselors are shaped."

Personality page is another highly referenced website for profiles:

"As an INFJ, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you take things in primarily via intuition. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit with your personal value system.

INFJs are gentle, caring, complex and highly intuitive individuals. Artistic and creative, they live in a world of hidden meanings and possibilities. Only one percent of the population has an INFJ Personality Type, making it the most rare of all the types.
...
But the INFJ is as genuinely warm as they are complex. INFJs hold a special place in the heart of people who they are close to, who are able to see their special gifts and depth of caring. INFJs are concerned for people's feelings, and try to be gentle to avoid hurting anyone. ... They have strong value systems, and need to live their lives in accordance with what they feel is right. In deference to the Feeling aspect of their personalities, INFJs are in some ways gentle and easy going."



There is no "official INFJ profile" for MBTI. There are several websites and sources that come up if you google for MBTI-related info.

All of the statements that you have bolded do not mean emotionally unstable or co-dependent. Furthermore, the Myers Briggs Type Indicator is a real test developed by Isabel Briggs Myers et al and is run by an organization created by her with plenty of research behind it. My source is from the official documentation.

http://www.myersbriggs.org/
http://www.capt.org/
 
Also, if many of you feel that you don't identify with the INFJ profile, did it ever occur to you that you might not be INFJs?

Now I realize that I worded that in a dickish way, I don't mean to. I don't care if you actually are or not. I just don't understand the logic of, and I'm paraphrasing, "I'm an INFJ, but I don't identify with the description".
 
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All of the statements that you have bolded do not mean emotionally unstable or co-dependent.
That addresses #3 and #4 on OP list, so we got that covered. If you use google and you'll find more of these.

INFJ

creative, smart, focus on fantasy more than reality, attracted to sad things, fears doing the wrong thing, observer, avoidant, fears drawing attention to self, anxious, cautious, somewhat easily frightened, easily offended, private, easily hurt, socially uncomfortable, emotionally moody, does not like to be looked at, fearful, perfectionist, can sabotage self, can be wounded at the core, values solitude, guarded, does not like crowds, organized, second guesses self, more likely to support marijuana legalization, focuses on peoples hidden motives, prone to crying, not competitive, prone to feelings of loneliness, not spontaneous, prone to sadness, longs for a stabilizing relationship, fears rejection in relationships, frequently worried, can feel victimized, prone to intimidation, lower energy, strict with self

Furthermore, the Myers Briggs Type Indicator is a real test developed by Isabel Briggs Myers et al and is run by an organization created by her with plenty of research behind it. My source is from the official documentation.

http://www.myersbriggs.org/
http://www.capt.org/
And is there research that demonstrates the validy of this profile and verifies its merit and accuracy over all the other posted profiles posted on the internet? Point is that there is no reason to consider that profile any better or more accurate than others even if you append the word "official" to it.
 
Ok so let me see if I understand this right...

When I asked -- "Where are you guys reading the descriptions that INFJs are emotionally unstable or co-dependent or other such ridiculous nonsense?"

You answered this question instead? -- "Where are you guys reading the descriptions that INFJs are emotional first, thinking 2nd; or creative or other such ridiculous nonsense?"

If that was not the case, then I'm not sure why you quoted my question and provided an answer addressing something completely different.


And is there research that demonstrates the validy of this profile and verifies its merit and accuracy over all the other posted profiles posted on the internet? Point is that there is no reason to consider that profile any better or more accurate than others even if you append the word "official" to it.

Can you please explain to me why the authoritative source would need to prove validity over other random Internet sites and not the other way around?

Furthermore, if you don't believe in the 'boxes' that these profiles state, why would you put your faith in them and question the validity of the authoritative one?
 
- prone to crying alot
- co-dependency
- emotional first, thinking 2nd
- creative

The first two 'traits' are not indicative of an INFJ.

The third, I'm assuming you are referring to the decision making process. In which case, Feeling does not mean emotional. Feeling and Thinking are rational functions, meaning decisions are made from a rational values/people based viewpoint or a logical/technical one. INFJs will make judgments from a values/people perspective first. That's not to say they won't go back and override it with a logical one before acting on it.

And for the 4th 'trait', I would first ask what you think they mean by 'creative'. Creative does not necessarily mean artistically creative. I think of it more as finding different ways of looking at or doing things. That is my creativity. I am a creative problem solver.
 
So everybody's saying their individuality as INFJs is determined by their enneagram?

*hear you sighing and groaning reading what I just post*
 
[MENTION=6623]INFJok[/MENTION], I think you were saying that the descriptions you read for INFJs say they are: Prone to crying a lot, co-dependent, emotional first, thinking 2nd, and creative. From personal experience (and knowing myself) I can tell you that not all INFJs are like this. Many of the male INFJs I know aren't like this and I know the females aren't either. Some INFJs with an Enneagram 4 may act more like you've read about, but that isn't set in stone either.

I think what you noted are strong generalizations that can be refuted depending on the INFJs. And yes, we're all individuals. What makes us INFJs is how we process information: Ni first, then Fe, then Ti, then Se. That's it. How we react emotionally is totally dependent on the individual.

Now, can Enneagram come into the picture? Yes it can, but it doesn't necessarily mean that having a certain Enneagram will change how an INFJ relates or responds; Enneagram is simply a theory, same as MBTI.

It's one theory but not the end-all be-all of anything.
 
Ok so let me see if I understand this right...

When I asked -- "Where are you guys reading the descriptions that INFJs are emotionally unstable or co-dependent or other such ridiculous nonsense?"

You answered this question instead? -- "Where are you guys reading the descriptions that INFJs are emotional first, thinking 2nd; or creative or other such ridiculous nonsense?"

If that was not the case, then I'm not sure why you quoted my question and provided an answer addressing something completely different.
You quoted me but you kept referring to me as "you guys" implying that you weren't referring to me in your quote, but to several people participating in this discussion. Since you weren't addressing anyone in particular, I continued on with the discussion the topic which consisted of 4 points. Two of these posts I backed up and thought that it would be easy for you to use google and find evidence for the other two if you wanted to, but no dice, you really wanted somebody else to use google for you.

Can you please explain to me why the authoritative source would need to prove validity over other random Internet sites and not the other way around?
On what basis do they claim authority?

Furthermore, if you don't believe in the 'boxes' that these profiles state, why would you put your faith in them and question the validity of the authoritative one?
Why do you discount all these other INFJ profiles simply because one of these websites decided to declare itself an authority on subject matter?
 
You quoted me but you kept referring to me as "you guys" implying that you weren't referring to me in your quote, but to several people participating in this discussion. Since you weren't addressing anyone in particular, I continued on with the discussion the topic which consisted of 4 points. Two of these posts I backed up and thought that it would be easy for you to use google and find evidence for the other two if you wanted to, but no dice, you really wanted somebody else to use google for you.

On what basis do they claim authority?


Why do you discount all these other INFJ profiles simply because one of these websites decided to declare itself an authority on subject matter?

Hahahahaha! I'm going to walk away from this one. Have a nice day.
 
aww and here I was, readying the argument from authority retort :/ bummer. well, till the next meet ^_^
 
I do identify with a lot of what the OP describes, but I constantly work on my co-dependency and emotional instability and know it can be overcome. We are not static, we are in progression. Even as a 4. I wish more hopeful positive things were written about 4's, because it is personally very crushing to be summed up in such a negative and hopeless perspective.