Religion is my "Thang"

[meowzician]

Hi @meowzician

I'm a cradle Catholic.

Loved your post!

To what degree are you still a practicing Catholic today?

I was interested in the brief discussion here about the use of the word because I don't think the Roman Catholic church is the same as was meant by the word 'catholic' in the first 5-10 centuries or so of Christianity. Catholic originally just meant universal, and I believe it applied to all who could sincerely profess the Nicene Creed once it's form had settled down. The same term (I believe in one, holy, catholic church) still appears in the creed as used by the Orthodox and many Protestant churches, as well as my own.

There is a tendency in the human mind to want a religion that has always been there and has always remained the same. But no such religion as that exists. It is the nature of the universe for everything to evolve, including religious ideologies.

I agree with you that the connotation of "Catholic Church" has changed over. I think originally it mean that it wasn't exclusive to one ethnicity the way Judaism is. It certainly came to refer to the institutional church which, as I think we would all agree, because EXTREMELY institutional for a while. And today in your post-Vatican 2 world means the community of all believers.

I think the Roman Catholic Church is like this - like the Jewish religion it runs all the way from organised and structured worship, through many sorts of public service, through many social activities, to the deepest of mystical prayer and experience. As such it can cater for a very wide range of folks with very different spiritual paths from each other.

All quite true. And when you add to this that the Catholic Church includes peoples from all over the world without exclusion, I do think the name "Catholic" fits very, very nicely.

As I have learnt over many decades too, an organised religious community such as the Catholic Church (as well as many others) provides individuals with very great support when life is difficult, or you hit a spiritual dry patch.

There are all sorts of scientific studies documenting that participation in a religious community increases human flourishing in a unique way.

But I don't think this is the only way up the mountain - there is only one peak and as long as a path is going upwards towards the summit, maybe it doesn't matter where you start from, though, like climbing Everest, some ways up may be more challenging than others.

In the end, for me what matters is not the outer form, but the heart within. A true spiritual path brings us to the possibility of a direct and loving experience of the divine person within each of us, and to be aware of and to love that divine spark within all people - and to accept it as a gift freely given to anyone who can take it.

I can tell we are going to be good friends.

 

[meowzician]

The thing about black and white thinking is that when I was in my 20's I still encountered people who made out that the bible and everything about it was still black and white. Even today some groups target college students not maliciously but because they are young and have no fully formed opinions and they say: "Look at this we have all the answers to what you should believe." I never went to college but I did spend time on the internet looking at people debate each other.

I can hear how these people hurt you. I'm hearing every word. I see you. I understand. And I hurt with you.

Let's talk a little bit about religious people who become adults but are stuck in the black and white thinking of a child. I know full well the damage they can do to others. But I also have compassion for them because it is not their fault that they have the spiritual equivalent of a developmental delay.

Are you familiar at all with Piaget's stages of cognitive development or Kohlberg's stages of moral development? Welcome to McLarin's stages of spiritual development. Just as a child has to master the concrete stage of cognition before he can move to the next stage, we all must master that initial spiritual stage of black and white thinking before we grow to the next stage. But some people never reach mastery. Sometimes things go wrong. People get stuck. It's not that they are wrong. They are not at a bad stage. They are simply stuck in an earlier stage.

I was raised in an extraordinarily religious home, the daughter of a fundamentalist pastor. I cannot exaggerate the number of rules we had. My parents believed that Christians should obey the Law. I was seven and my brother was five when my mom began reading us the Books of Law, every verse, every begat, from Genesis 1:1 to Deuteronomy 34:12. The number of rules we had just for keeping the sabbath were daunting. What kind of Christian DOES that?????? LOL

I experienced three traumas as a child, and there was just something about that 1-2-3 punch which made it extraordinarily difficult for me to move into a more mature spirituality. That literalist, fundamentalist ideation just made grooves on the rock and the water didn't want to flow down any other way. It has taken me a lifetime to reach the place I am at now, and even now I sometimes find myself reverting to that thinking.

So I've actually made two conversions. The easier one was out of Christian fundamentalism, through Catholicism, to Judaism. The much, much harder conversion was from black and white thou shalt not question thinking to happily embracing doubt as a gateway to a deeper spirituality.

I'm not invalidating your feelings in any way, shape, size or form. But sometimes we can recontextualize the things from our past that have harmed us. I hope that perhaps by sharing what I have this might be a possibility for you.

You really were isolated back in the 1970's

OMG, how old were you in the 70s? I ask because I was born in 61, and was a teen in the 70s. I have always felt like I get shoved in with the earlier boomers when I never went to Woodstock or protested the Vietnam War. LOL They had a world of opportunity that those of us growing up just 10 years later never had. We grew up with recession and inflation and gas lines and Watergate and the rising costs of housing. I was reading the other day that some psychologists believe that the resilience that us 70's kids have is a trauma based reaction.

I realize that was a severe diversion from our topic, sorry. LOL

and my mom had lots of church friends and networks of people who believed. But in my case I was adapting to a different culture with all these toys, cartoons and schooling not available back then. My mom was born in the 1950s so many things happened I was aware of from tv and the history channel tv program.

Oh for sure. I think every generation feels this way. I know my son often expresses the same thing.

Church really did make me afraid at some of the messages because somethings you should not tell kids, those are adult services.

YIKES! I'm sure you are referring to the whole hell thing. I don't know how I escaped that. But I was never once afraid of going to hell. The songs my mother would sing as she worked or rocked me were all about God's love. I have to tell you, I do not like it at all when people use abstract fear to keep others in line.

I actually knew a blind man named Paul my moms age and he said to me: so Richard Dawkins is your authority not the bible.

LOL, yeah, I know the type.

I am not saying this is the essence of religion but it does show people can be influenced as to how they think others think. If he thought I was stupid and that I can be influenced to believe propaganda and that means I should follow the right propaganda instead of wrong ones.

Oh, well said.

 

[Fruiteloop]

OMG, how old were you in the 70s? I ask because I was born in 61, and was a teen in the 70s. I have always felt like I get shoved in with the earlier boomers when I never went to Woodstock or protested the Vietnam War. LOL They had a world of opportunity that those of us growing up just 10 years later never had. We grew up with recession and inflation and gas lines and Watergate and the rising costs of housing. I was reading the other day that some psychologists believe that the resilience that us 70's kids have is a trauma based reaction.

I realize that was a severe diversion from our topic, sorry. LOL

I was talking about my mother. She was 20 in 1977 the year star wars came out. I was born in 1987

During covid we watched lots of old tv programs like Magnum Pi and the Andy Griffin show at midnight when she and my aunt were awake. Dragnet was interesting as well.

It reminded me of when I was 6 - 9 years old how isolated I felt then as tv can turn off and you are alone with nothing to do, of course different shows were on pbs at my age and in my moms time and I lived in the desert.

I hear kids today say it was better without cell phones because everything was more personal and real and I saw many tv programs from the 80s and 90s but in the 70s my mom never told me much of what happened but it is the culture of what it must have felt like since the internet was not around and I did not get heavy into the internet until 2005 to 2012 and afterwards.

I know history facts because of how my memory system functions and what I was exposed to but I am not that old. just odd memory.

Also I watched recent documentaries on generational growing up.

if you born in the late 60s then you were a teen in the 1980s
Stranger things is a show I never watched but it has spy's and aliens and advanced technologies in the 80s

The 90's had x-files and nickelodeon shows.
Like anamorphs (kids received power from a centaur alien to turn into animals)
and the radio show coast to coast A.M.

Adult programs I watch many of those not just kids stuff.

I am going to look into spiritual development stages you mentioned so thank you for that information.

 

[John K]

To what degree are you still a practicing Catholic today?

I’m very much a practicing Catholic - it’s a city I like to live in.

But I also like the country it is part of - there are plenty of other good places to visit there too. Mind you, there are also some dodgy places it’s not too safe to wander into alone at night.

There is a tendency in the human mind to want a religion that has always been there and has always remained the same.

It’s funny isn’t it how many folks make their religion their god? There’s something a bit idolatrous about it. We mistake what is a road atlas for the destination. You can end up stuck at a signpost that way rather than moving on towards where it is pointing.

I agree with you that the connotation of "Catholic Church" has changed over. I think originally it mean that it wasn't exclusive to one ethnicity the way Judaism is.

Like I said, I think anyone who can in sincerity recite the Nicene Creed is part of the universal church - i.e. catholic with a small ‘c’. In truth, the Roman Catholic Church became a thing during the dark ages when the Western Roman Empire disintegrated and lost routine contact with the Eastern Empire. The ecclesiastical language split into Latin and Greek didn’t help. And then, sadly, there was the power politics of the Middle Ages. What’s surprising to me is how much of the fundamentals of the Christian faith survived without great distortion between ourselves and the Eastern Orthodox churches down to the present day.

 

[Akar]

Like I said, I think anyone who can in sincerity recite the Nicene Creed is part of the universal church - i.e. catholic with a small ‘c’. In truth, the Roman Catholic Church became a thing during the dark ages when the Western Roman Empire disintegrated and lost routine contact with the Eastern Empire. The ecclesiastical language split into Latin and Greek didn’t help. And then, sadly, there was the power politics of the Middle Ages. What’s surprising to me is how much of the fundamentals of the Christian faith survived without great distortion between ourselves and the Eastern Orthodox churches down to the present day

I fully agree with you and, for the love of truth, I wanted to bring up the example of the Ethiopian tradition. Despite centuries of geographical isolation and independence from the power dynamics of medieval Europe, they preserved the same scriptural and doctrinal core

-Giammarco

 

[John K]

I fully agree with you and, for the love of truth, I wanted to bring up the example of the Ethiopian tradition. Despite centuries of geographical isolation and independence from the power dynamics of medieval Europe, they preserved the same scriptural and doctrinal core

-Giammarco

I believe that the essential text content of scripture has remained amazingly true to the earliest surviving manuscripts, going back in one or two cases to fragments dating from the first century CE. There are complete copies of the New Testament that are many hundreds of years older than any other book copied and handed down from antiquity. Though of course the originals were transcribed into Latin in the West and the Greek language was lost there for a long, long time, until the Renaissance. The provenance of Christian scripture is apparently the best preserved out of all the books that have survived from antiquity.

Except maybe @meowzician - is the provenance of Jewish scripture at least as well attested by very early surviving manuscripts? I think there are fragments of the Torah from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating back to the first century BCE?

 

[meowzician]

I’m very much a practicing Catholic - it’s a city I like to live in.

But I also like the country it is part of - there are plenty of other good places to visit there too. Mind you, there are also some dodgy places it’s not too safe to wander into alone at night.

I love your metaphor.

It’s funny isn’t it how many folks make their religion their god? There’s something a bit idolatrous about it. We mistake what is a road atlas for the destination. You can end up stuck at a signpost that way rather than moving on towards where it is pointing.

Wisely put.

Like I said, I think anyone who can in sincerity recite the Nicene Creed is part of the universal church - i.e. catholic with a small ‘c’.

Which is why I needed to leave. I didn't belong.

But if that is what does it for you, if that brings you closer to God and inspires you to be a better person, then I fully support you. May you become the best Catholic you can be, my new friend.

 

[meowzician]

Except maybe @meowzician - is the provenance of Jewish scripture at least as well attested by very early surviving manuscripts? I think there are fragments of the Torah from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating back to the first century BCE?

Thank you for your vote of confidence! I am no scholar, but I have a grasp of the basics in this matter. I am familiar not just with the Masoretic text (the one universally used by Jews), but also the DSS and LXX. I think you'll find that I have very little respect for the LXX or any other translation. All translations are flawed by nature. The DSS are much, much more interesting to me.

 

[Akar]

am no scholar, but I have a grasp of the basics in this matter. I am familiar not just with the Masoretic text (the one universally used by Jews), but also the DSS and LXX.

Thank you for the clarification. Everything is much clearer now.


-Giammarco

 

[John K]

Which is why I needed to leave. I didn't belong.

Your spiritual journey sounds quite fascinating. What was it that drew you to the Jewish tradition in the end? You described the dialectic as appealing, but do you find truth too in the doctrine?

There are some most powerful passages in Jewish scripture. This is one of my favourites.

There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”

God speaks to many of us this way if we listen and if we let him, and the mystery and the life-changing impact can be great. Though for most of us, the burning bush appears inside our souls rather than on an open hillside.

I'm very fond of the Song of Solomon too. But is that book included in canonical Jewish scripture or is it on the periphery?

But if that is what does it for you, if that brings you closer to God and inspires you to be a better person, then I fully support you. May you become the best Catholic you can be, my new friend.

I'm maybe unusual in that my religion is a consequence of my relationship with God rather than the other way round, but that's a long story. In my own experience no religious container is big enough to hold God and they are all a compromise. What's fascinating is that often one will have deeper insights in one direction and another will have them in a different direction. Mystical insight burns brightly not only in Christianity, but in Buddhism, the ancient form of Tao, the Sufis - and I guess there are similar mystics in Jewish tradition too, though I know less about them than some of the others. I venture out into these from my home in the Christian faith but with the heart of a positive skeptic, as far as I am able, without which faith can become fossilised old bones.

It's a fascinating journey that leads me well beyond the boundaries.

Thank you for your vote of confidence! I am no scholar, but I have a grasp of the basics in this matter. I am familiar not just with the Masoretic text (the one universally used by Jews), but also the DSS and LXX. I think you'll find that I have very little respect for the LXX or any other translation. All translations are flawed by nature. The DSS are much, much more interesting to me.

That's really interesting. I think that the Old Testament in the Bible is based on LXX isn't it, because the Greek version was what a lot of Greek speaking Jews at the time of Christ used rather than the Hebrew? Isn't there some suggestion that the differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is not just down to translation, but because the text evolved in Hebrew after the time of the Septuagint translation? I guess that's where the DSS can be useful as intermediate in date between them?

But have you learnt to read scripture in Hebrew so that you can go to the original? Sadly I never learnt Greek, so I have to rely on English translations of Christian New Testament scripture.

 

[TomasM]

I'm still not sure what your faith is. You do sound unusually reluctant to share it, and I'm not here to push you. But you've obviously had some very bad experiences with being bashed about it, so I can completely understand that reluctance. With me,please share only what you are comfortable with.

Not reluctant, I've shared it on this forum and people know my orientation. I was born into the Catholic church, christened and given a saint name, but that is where it stopped. I was raised protestant with a very strict and firm hand so when I left home I rejected all religion and became agnostic for about two decades. Everything started to come together in my late 30's when I found out about my temperament and genealogy - the deeper I went into understanding myself, the more I was pulled towards God. The "scaffolding" held but wasn't what gave me the direction - that was the deep connection and awareness of how powerful it (God) was. So, I don't look to the church or it's leadership for guidance, I get it directly from the source and I know that most people can't hear or understand what that really means.

I do like to hear from many of the faiths because all of them help me understand perspective and connection but I hold true to what I know and have faith that God is the conductor of a beautiful symphony of which I am but one little instrument.

I feel like we need a Muslim in here to complete the Abrahamic trifecta - that would make for an exceptional dialogue. Does that seem like a fantasy?

I had to look for a song so I put "symphony," into YT and this song came back. I don't know much about the artist but the song fit well if you take it into this context.

 

[meowzician]

I'll be replying to your entire very interesting post, but this part was easy, so I thought I'd quickly pop it out.

I think that the Old Testament in the Bible is based on LXX isn't it, because the Greek version was what a lot of Greek speaking Jews at the time of Christ used rather than the Hebrew?

No, quite the contrary. The Torah and other texts of the Tanakh (what you call the OT) were originally written in Hebrew. The original mother tongue of Jews is Hebrew. Later in history it became Aramaic and Hebrew was preserved in the practice of religion. But Greek was never a Jewish language. The Jews that spoke Greek were only the ones that lived in the diaspora such as Alexandria.

In the 3rd century CE, Ptolemy II Philadelphus (the Hellenistic ruler of Egypt) asked Jewish scholars to translate the Torah from Hebrew to Greek. That was a quality translation, although still only a translation. As the centuries wore on, other Hebrew texts were translated to Greek. Some scholars say that a few of them were even translated by Christians. But that is how the LXX came into being. It is a translation.

In the time of Jesus, the Jews that lived in Judea, Samaria, Galilee, etc. all spoke Aramaic as their daily language, but they retained Hebrew for religious purposes.

 

[meowzician]

There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”

Hineni הִנֵּֽנִי "Here I am."
Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and He said to him, "Abraham," and he said, "Here I am."

Are you familiar with the music of Leonard Cohen, of blessed memory? Most people know his "Halleluyah." When he was reflecting on his own impending death, he wrote a song called "You want it darker." Knowing that he wouldn't have much longer on this earth, he says to God, "Hineni."

God speaks to many of us this way if we listen and if we let him, and the mystery and the life-changing impact can be great. Though for most of us, the burning bush appears inside our souls rather than on an open hillside.

Exactly. I hope and pray that if ever, whenever, God calls upon me, I too will answer Hineni.

I'm very fond of the Song of Solomon too. But is that book included in canonical Jewish scripture or is it on the periphery?

It is part of the Tanakh. There are three sections: the Torah (Law), the Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings) such as the Psalms, Esther, Job, Ecclesiastes. Song of Song is in that section--the Writings. We traditionally read it on the Shabbat (Sabbath) that falls within the week of Passover.

What is it about Song of Songs that appeals to you?

In my own experience no religious container is big enough to hold God and they are all a compromise.

Amein.

What's fascinating is that often one will have deeper insights in one direction and another will have them in a different direction. Mystical insight burns brightly not only in Christianity, but in Buddhism, the ancient form of Tao, the Sufis - and I guess there are similar mystics in Jewish tradition too, though I know less about them than some of the others.

I agree with you. As a mystic myself, I find I have a connection with other mystics, a kind of kinship, even those in other faith traditions. From your Catholic tradition, I have a great appreciation for St. John of the Cross.


The Baal Shem Tov --that's the big name you should become familiar with-- lived in the 1700s. He taught a deep, easily accessible, experiential form of spirituality that emphasized joy, heartfelt prayer, and the presence of God in everyday life rather than only in scholarly study. He elevated the spiritual value of simple people, and stressed devekut, meaning cleaving to God. So many people flocked to him that it began a major movement in Judaism that continues to this day.

One of my own favorite mystics is the Kotzker Rebbe (who was part of that movement), known for his sharp, paradoxical sayings that cut through self-deception. "He who does not see God everywhere, sees God nowhere." “Where is God? Wherever you let Him in.” “There is nothing so whole as a broken heart.”

But my all time favorite is a 20th century Rabbi named Heschel. Most people know of him because of his very close association with Martin Luther King Jr. and participation in the Civil Rights Movement. But for me, I drink in his mysticism, his deep spirituality. "Prayer cannot bring water to parched fields, or mend a broken bridge, or rebuild a ruined city; but prayer can water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will." This saying is so profound, that it made it into our prayer book.

But have you learnt to read scripture in Hebrew so that you can go to the original?

My Hebrew stinks. It used to be a lot better, but as I've grown older, I've forgotten a lot of what I learned. If you go back to around 2010, I knew enough Hebrew that I could read, ie. Genesis 1, and understand what I was reading. That's not true today.

The Jews who are incredibly fluent in Hebrew are the Orthodox. All Jews start teaching our children Hebrew as soon as they are old enough to talk. But the Orthodox don't just have weekly Sunday Schools. They have Jewish day schools, the equivalent of a parochial school. Children learn Hebrew daily. If you visit an Orthodox Torah study, what you will see is ordinary Jewish adults reading the text in Hebrew, pausing to translate as they go. It's phenomenal.

Sadly I never learnt Greek, so I have to rely on English translations of Christian New Testament scripture.

A translation will never be as good as the original tongue, but it certainly is an awesome tool for those of us who are not fluent in that language.

 

[meowzician]

Your spiritual journey sounds quite fascinating. What was it that drew you to the Jewish tradition in the end? You described the dialectic as appealing, but do you find truth too in the doctrine?

I'm not going to share TOO much of it. For one thing, I don't want to get all preachy or seem like I'm putting down anyone else's faith.

But also, it is a very LONG story. It has many uncanny moments of synchronicity that still sometimes give me goosebumps when I think back on them. It has been shaped by incredible dreams, amazing inner visions, and chance meetings with well known key figures as well as sages disguised as ordinary people, angels without wings. I suspect my becoming a Jew was written on the wall from my early childhood, and these many events in my life conspired to bring me to that inevitable turning point. I will share just one of those many moments.

It was 1991 and I was a young wife and mother, attending university part time to get my teaching credential. And I was very happily Catholic. Not exactly the sort of person you would anticipate making a conversion. It was the years before the worldwide web, when forums such as this one (called Bulletin Boards) were run by hobbyists. I was very active in a forum called Rhyme Religion. There had always been Jews in my life, but this was the first time I ever had a chance to talk to them about religion.

So it was an occasion where I mentioned I had been raised strictly fundamentalist, and had joined the Catholic Church (people say Catholicism is so strict--they have NO IDEA what strict means! It was a breath of fresh air.) And many people were like, Why in the world would you become Catholic?

I explained that I had read a lot of church history. While there is no church today that is exactly like the first century church, Catholicism comes closest. And I wanted the Original Real Deal. So for me, becoming Catholic was taking a step back in time to the Original.

One of my Jewish friends, Miriam, sent back a response that was one simple sentence. "Take one more step back."

I remember clearly how I sat there staring at that message. I don't know how long, but we aren't talking just a few seconds.

Because she was right. Before the Church, there was the Jewish people.

And that began my intense inquiry into Judaism. Within months I was learning Hebrew, attending Shabbat services, lighting Shabbat candles. I was very definitely doing my INFJ thing of slipping into their shoes and seeing the world through their eyes.

The Rabbi invited me to his family's Passover seder. When I shared this with with my Rhyme Religion Jewish friends they were like, "What? Orthodox Rabbis don't invite non-Jews to their Seders. Have you ever heard of such a thing? No, I have never in my life heard of such a thing." And Shlomoh said, "I know what it is. He has invited you because he believes that one day you will convert."

I couldn't see that. Not yet. And indeed it would be two more decades before I actually did make my conversion. But that man saw it coming. Way back in 1991.

 

[meowzician]

Not reluctant, I've shared it on this forum and people know my orientation. I was born into the Catholic church, christened and given a saint name, but that is where it stopped. I was raised protestant with a very strict and firm hand so when I left home I rejected all religion and became agnostic for about two decades. Everything started to come together in my late 30's when I found out about my temperament and genealogy - the deeper I went into understanding myself, the more I was pulled towards God. The "scaffolding" held but wasn't what gave me the direction - that was the deep connection and awareness of how powerful it (God) was. So, I don't look to the church or it's leadership for guidance, I get it directly from the source and I know that most people can't hear or understand what that really means.

That is so amazing! I'm so glad you shared it with me.

I do like to hear from many of the faiths because all of them help me understand perspective and connection but I hold true to what I know and have faith that God is the conductor of a beautiful symphony of which I am but one little instrument.

OMGosh, that is such a wonderful metaphor. And being a musician, one I truly resonate with.

I feel like we need a Muslim in here to complete the Abrahamic trifecta - that would make for an exceptional dialogue. Does that seem like a fantasy?

LOL, I absolutely agree. Wouldn't that be incredible? OMGosh, I'd especially love it if it were a Sufi.

Have you ever had the opportunity to pray at a mosque? It's an incredible experience.

 

[Wyote]

You can only truly be in touch with the divine when you...
Let It Go

 

[John K]

What is it about Song of Songs that appeals to you?

It is a parable of the seeking of God as a great love story. St John of the Cross related his whole spiritual journey to that of a bride longing and seeking her lover.

It has parallels in other spiritual paths - the Ox Herding parable of Zen Buddhism is a similar sort of journey, but is not expressed as a love story, at least not in the same way.

The Baal Shem Tov --that's the big name you should become familiar with-- lived in the 1700s. He taught a deep, easily accessible, experiential form of spirituality that emphasized joy, heartfelt prayer, and the presence of God in everyday life rather than only in scholarly study. He elevated the spiritual value of simple people, and stressed devekut, meaning cleaving to God. So many people flocked to him that it began a major movement in Judaism that continues to this day.

One of my own favorite mystics is the Kotzker Rebbe (who was part of that movement), known for his sharp, paradoxical sayings that cut through self-deception. "He who does not see God everywhere, sees God nowhere." “Where is God? Wherever you let Him in.” “There is nothing so whole as a broken heart.”

But my all time favorite is a 20th century Rabbi named Heschel. Most people know of him because of his very close association with Martin Luther King Jr. and participation in the Civil Rights Movement. But for me, I drink in his mysticism, his deep spirituality. "Prayer cannot bring water to parched fields, or mend a broken bridge, or rebuild a ruined city; but prayer can water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will." This saying is so profound, that it made it into our prayer book.

Very many thanks for this, that's a great help - I'll look them up when I have a bit more time than at present. It will be very interesting to compare them to what I guess are parallel more modern mystical leaders in Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. People like Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating and Richard Rohr (Christianity), D.T. Suzuki (Zen) and Idres Shah (Islam Sufi).

I'm not going to share TOO much of it. For one thing, I don't want to get all preachy or seem like I'm putting down anyone else's faith.

But also, it is a very LONG story. It has many uncanny moments of synchronicity that still sometimes give me goosebumps when I think back on them. It has been shaped by incredible dreams, amazing inner visions, and chance meetings with well known key figures as well as sages disguised as ordinary people, angels without wings. I suspect my becoming a Jew was written on the wall from my early childhood, and these many events in my life conspired to bring me to that inevitable turning point. I will share just one of those many moments.

It was 1991 and I was a young wife and mother, attending university part time to get my teaching credential. And I was very happily Catholic. Not exactly the sort of person you would anticipate making a conversion. It was the years before the worldwide web, when forums such as this one (called Bulletin Boards) were run by hobbyists. I was very active in a forum called Rhyme Religion. There had always been Jews in my life, but this was the first time I ever had a chance to talk to them about religion.

So it was an occasion where I mentioned I had been raised strictly fundamentalist, and had joined the Catholic Church (people say Catholicism is so strict--they have NO IDEA what strict means! It was a breath of fresh air.) And many people were like, Why in the world would you become Catholic?

I explained that I had read a lot of church history. While there is no church today that is exactly like the first century church, Catholicism comes closest. And I wanted the Original Real Deal. So for me, becoming Catholic was taking a step back in time to the Original.

One of my Jewish friends, Miriam, sent back a response that was one simple sentence. "Take one more step back."

I remember clearly how I sat there staring at that message. I don't know how long, but we aren't talking just a few seconds.

Because she was right. Before the Church, there was the Jewish people.

And that began my intense inquiry into Judaism. Within months I was learning Hebrew, attending Shabbat services, lighting Shabbat candles. I was very definitely doing my INFJ thing of slipping into their shoes and seeing the world through their eyes.

The Rabbi invited me to his family's Passover seder. When I shared this with with my Rhyme Religion Jewish friends they were like, "What? Orthodox Rabbis don't invite non-Jews to their Seders. Have you ever heard of such a thing? No, I have never in my life heard of such a thing." And Shlomoh said, "I know what it is. He has invited you because he believes that one day you will convert."

I couldn't see that. Not yet. And indeed it would be two more decades before I actually did make my conversion. But that man saw it coming. Way back in 1991.

And very many thanks for sharing your story <333

I can see it has been a long journey of great significance that has meant such a lot to you - it's often the case that exploring deeply is a lifetime of spiraling around a centre, and it's often only coming back round again after a long road that you see clearly and appreciate in reality and in spirit.

“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.

—T.S. Eliot, from “Little Gidding,” Four Quartets

 

[TomasM]

Have you ever had the opportunity to pray at a mosque? It's an incredible experience.

I haven’t but working in large IT groups there is often a diverse set of cultures and religions. At one point I had a co-worker that was going through Ramadan. I didn’t fully understand the fasting and prayer at the end of day. So, I decided to do it with him one day and then when the fast broke we went and had Indian food. It was a fascinating experience and he became a good friend. We had several Jews, Christian’s and Muslims in that group and I was friends with all of them.

 

[meowzician]

It is a parable of the seeking of God as a great love story. St John of the Cross related his whole spiritual journey to that of a bride longing and seeking her lover.

Yes.

It has parallels in other spiritual paths - the Ox Herding parable of Zen Buddhism is a similar sort of journey, but is not expressed as a love story, at least not in the same way.

Oh, please share! I collect stories like this!

Very many thanks for this, that's a great help - I'll look them up when I have a bit more time than at present. It will be very interesting to compare them to what I guess are parallel more modern mystical leaders in Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. People like Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating and Richard Rohr (Christianity), D.T. Suzuki (Zen) and Idres Shah (Islam Sufi).

Many familiar names there. Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching?

Interesting that you brought up Richard Rohr. Are you connected at all with his Center for Action and Contemplation? He is getting ready to retire, and it very much looks in the works for Brian McLaren (author of Faith After Doubt) to succeed him. I had a short correspondence with Brian McLaren, and I think he is an amazing man and will do an amazing job of continuing Richard Rohr's legacy.

“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.

—T.S. Eliot, from “Little Gidding,” Four Quartets

So beautiful...

 

[meowzician]

I haven’t but working in large IT groups there is often a diverse set of cultures and religions. At one point I had a co-worker that was going through Ramadan. I didn’t fully understand the fasting and prayer at the end of day. So, I decided to do it with him one day and then when the fast broke we went and had Indian food. It was a fascinating experience and he became a good friend. We had several Jews, Christian’s and Muslims in that group and I was friends with all of them.

What an amazing experience.

It is so incredibly cool that there are so many of us in here that have this breadth of experience. It's not exactly common, so to find so many of us together in one place...

In my past I learned a great deal about many, many religions. There is wisdom in all sorts of places, many of them quite unexpected. It was 1988 that I looked into Islam. I took a course at Long Beach State under Dr Robert Eisenman (yes, THE Dr. Eisenman of DSS fame). But I've always understood that even though book learning is good, you can never really understand a religion without experience. I made some very good Muslim friends, and we'd stay up late talking, and sometimes I would go pray with them. Beautiful Just beautiful.