[PUG] Brothers & Sisters (split from [PAX] thread). | INFJ Forum

[PUG] Brothers & Sisters (split from [PAX] thread).

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by The Jester, Feb 4, 2010.

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  1. The Jester

    I don't think we should be 'good' towards eachother out of fear (for a deity) but rather because we have morality.
    I don't think Christianity is necessary to develop morals.
     
    #1 The Jester, Feb 4, 2010
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  2. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    I suggest you do what basically the new testament commands. Drop everything and merely exist day to day in humble anticipation of Christs second coming and the glorious rapture which will herald an end to all this misery, depravation and 'worldly' sin you so vehemently lament.

    Sure, there's a lot of strife in this world of ours, but I fear that attempting to cure it with self deception, clutching at straws and - as Jester rightly said - living a god-fearing life will only add to it. Simply minus the religion factor from many of humanities historic worldly woes and you'll find they simply wouldn't have happened in the first place.

    I find it quite ironic that such idealistic and confident words against worldly strife should be spoken in the name of the very same thing [religion] that helped cause a lot of it.
     
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    #2 Krumplenump, Feb 4, 2010
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  3. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    If you think that worldy strife finds it's roots in religion then I believe you are sadly mistaken. Most strife in human history come from national, political, and selfish reasons. mostly religion has been misused as a tool to hide these things from those who would oppose it otherwise.

    May the jester jest, living in Christ is the only cure for it.

    Self deception would aslo be a foolhardy term use
     
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  4. OP
    The Jester

    It's too late, my soul is already doomed.
    But I was serious. I don't think that we need religion to have morality, and I'd rather have my actions influenced by my conscience instead of fear.

    If there would be a christian god, and you have denied him your whole life, yet lived a very moral life where you helped all those around you and did nothing bad to others.
    Would you get into heaven?
     
  5. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    I'd rather live a life influenced by love then conscience.


    would you know such a man? I can think of only one who lived a perfect life.
     
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  6. OP
    The Jester

    Why do you need a god to live a life influenced by love?
     
  7. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Because God's Love is the only love worth living for, what else can offer the wholeness of life and the redemption of sin. Under any other name I would live in anguish over my history.
     
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  8. patricky

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    Like eating shellfish or feeling attracted to someone of the same gender.

    Indeed, perhaps we should just hope that Jesus comes again, and then elect him king and live under his gentle theocratic rule. Because THAT'S not a mindset someone will figure out how to take advantage of.
     
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  9. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Wonderfully put. However I believe that is too optimistic of a statement. All ideals of eternal fraternity and neighbourly brotherhood work on the assumption that mankind is collectively flawless. Unfortunately they are, as Barnabas rightly said, 'faulty', which leads me on to my response to Barnabas himself..

    I agree, men are faulty. But if men are faulty then does this not say something about their creator? Why would a supposedly flawless entity whos word is to be followed to the dot create such a wayward, glitched species and then lament about how disobedient they are? If that's the case why the hell did God create us in the first place?

    If you put a non-existent superstition at the head of humanity then we will have certainly, as a species, hit rock bottom. Need I remind you that in every single instance where a society has attempted to be ruled 'by God', some megalomaniacal despot pops up and charges around like he owns the place. Look at Iran and the Ayatollah, looks at the fanatical Jewish sects that settle on Palestinian land, look at innumerable charlatan preachers in the US. The list goes on.

    The first thing the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury and other leading world religious figures did in response to the Danish cartoons of Muhammed was not condemn the boycott of Danish goods by the Muslim world, not condemn the spiteful violence directed at Danish embassies, the death-threats or the fatwas issued, but was to say 'religion should be respected'. Same for the response to Salman Rushdies Satanic Verses. These peoples priority is the seamless 'image of faith' and the perpetual respect for its supposed authority, not the welfare of humanity.

    Yes yes, you've sort of unknowingly adopted the despicable Islamic principle of 'Taqqiya' there, dodged the facts and passed the buck and blame on to 'how men use' religion, politics and nationalism. There is no 'misuse' of religion going on and this contemporary view that religion was originally and is these days a message of peace is utter fallacy. ALL THREE Abrahamic holy books preach doctrine and dogma that is quite blatantly politically motivated and tailored to those who wish to govern a society and rule a nation. The Old testament condones genocide for all those who get in the way of 'Gods work', the new testament says 'to hell with your mundane daily pursuits, drop your life and sit and wait for Jesus on a hill in the middle of nowhere', the Torah preaches the right for Jews to reside in the holy land at the cost of the lives of any others who live there and the Koran demands death for apostates (leavers of Islam). There is NOTHING moral about the fundamental treachings of religion, and humanity is not to blame for 'misusing' an already self-centred and scheming ideal.

    The only thing certain elements of humanity is to blame for is the fabrication of this corruptive, deceiving and brainwashing virus in the first place.
     
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  10. patricky

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    Asking open ended questions will only get you vague, open ended answers.

    Krumple I think maybe we should get married. You are sexy.
     
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  11. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Tell me have you read Genesis, it will aptly answer your question.


    wow...

    not even close to accurate, You would first off note "every single instance" is a terrible statement as i can give you three good examples, David, Solomon, and Nehemiah, all jewish leaders and good men as far as men can be good. there are others of course, if you would like more names.

    secoundly your statement contridicts the premise, if people are ruled by God, then why are they being ruled by men at the same time. Can a man serve two masters.

    Infact all the negative examples you've poited out are exactly what this thread is about, to stop following the fools and return to God.

    wait your saying that after being offended that people should not react to in a non-violent way as to produce a resolution. And further more you think that peacefull religions should not advocate a peaceful protest.

    The cartoon is a form of real world trolling.

    this last bit only proves how little you actually know about Abrahamic Relgions, I suggest you go talk to Jewish and Islamic scholars over this, I will advocate Christianity to the best of my ability.

    First the whole let's sit on hill idea, yeah early church already faced that problem, read 2 thessalonians. The book is devoted to the subject. in fact here's a couple of verses for you,

    Warning Against Idleness

    6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

    11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right. 14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.


    Next on the list, if Christianity is tilore for world domination how do you explain this passage in 1 peter 2:17

    17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the Emperor.



    or how about Jesus in Matthew 22:19-22


    19Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
    21"Caesar's," they replied.
    Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." 22When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.


    How about Christianity being unmoral

    John 13:34

    34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

    1 John 4:20

    If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

    Romans8:39

    neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Galatians 5:16-25

    16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    Acts 10: 36

    You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.



    Hmmm..... so Christianity isn't about assuming some kind of controlling state position, or about sitting on a hill looking for God to return.

    Nor is it founded upon unjust principles, because obviously no man could read this and say God has ordered me to war. No the politics of men in power are what caused such terrible things to happen.

    but surley if you need more proof of this I can show you more.

    how much else of your words should be considered valid, after proving youself invalid.
     
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  12. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Barnabas, amidst your verbosity there, the only thing I detected was you copy-pasting the bible as though it answers me. It does not. The three Jewish men you quoted are, wait... mentioned in the bible by any chance? How do you expect me to take that as an effective counter-argument when those who wrote the bible could portray any of their subjects in any light they wanted and when the book you got this 'evidence' from is also full of stories of talking snakes and people rising from the dead. You're just answering questions with questions, which is a lame defence.

    In short, as long as you keep drawing 'counter-arguments' (or rather 'counter-questions') from the bible or any other religious book, you really do not have a leg to stand on.

    Come back when you have some reliable, solid evidence of whatever nonsense you're trying to peddle.


    Going back to the start, I take umbridge at this particular sentence in your opening post:

    That you dare to assume people are incapable of raising children without the guidance of Christ highlights the utter arrogance with which religion rampages over the world and which, ultimately, makes debating with it near futile were it not for the drive free-thinkers, intellectuals and just plain normal people with common sense have in wanting to give THEIR children a choice.
     
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  13. OP
    The Jester

    Krumplenump, I give you my sword.
    Seriously, you made good points.
     
  14. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Is that a proposal? I'm touched :)

    haharr! To war to spread our word! Oh no wait, that would be terribly hypocritical :p
     
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    #14 Krumplenump, Feb 4, 2010
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  15. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    You make false points about christian doctrine, I simply showed you where your points were false, and sighted scripture to prove it.

    you ask questions, I show you were to find answers, what questions did i ask you. If your talking about me asking you if you read Genesis, thats only to see if you knew the answer to your own question. which i'm starting to think not. And if you don't you should read Genesis and find out for yourself

    Also tell me, if we cannot trust jewish authors to wright about their kings, how can we trust Roman authors to write about their Emperors, or Americans to right about their presidents.

    This should also be countered buy the fact the jews did not spare us the less the wholsome periods of their history. Several Kings reigned in Judah and Isreal, and for the most part none were good. The Jews didn't pick and choose what info they gave us. They have not padded their history.

    But of course what else could this be other then a retalitory attack, when ones points have ben made moot.


    "How many know that if we, only showed the love of Christ more often to our children that they would never have to worry about things like premarital sex, divorce, drug use and abortion. If we raise them to know right from wrong then why would we even have to ask these things."

    Once again you take pleasure in making assumptions where none are to be made. Did i say in this post once that non-christians are incapable of raising children, no not once. I simply high lighted problems that most Christians take as hot button issues. The point of this thread is to state that instead of making laws and trying to get the government to govern our faith, that instead we work to teach our children right from wrong so that the issues arn't issues. surley you have no problem with parents teaching their children not to become teenage unwed mothers and fathers.
     
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    #15 Barnabas, Feb 4, 2010
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  16. IndigoSensor

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    Thread has been split as per Barnabas request.
     
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  17. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Ghandi or Sidhuarta?
     
  18. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    close seconds but I was thinking Jesus
     
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  19. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    David:
    Sixth Commandment - wiped out an entire city simply because the city leaders would rather protect their citizens than a marauding tribe who demanded capitulation for a god they didn't worship.
    Tenth Commandment - Desired the wife of his General, sent his General off to be killed.
    Seventh Commandment - Slept with Bathsheeba, the wife of the above General.
    Deuteronomy 17:17 - A king is commanded not to multiply horses, wives or gold. David sins in all three of these areas.

    Solomon:
    First Commandment - He denied his lord to worship his new wife's god.
    Second Commandment - He denied his lord to worship his new wife's god.
    Third Commandment - He denied his lord to worship his new wife's god.
    Fourth Commandment - He denied his lord to worship his new wife's god.
    Deuteronomy 17:17 - A king is commanded not to multiply horses, wives or gold. Solomon sins in all three of these areas. Solomon collects 666 talents of gold each year, (1 Kings 10:14) a huge amount of money for a small nation like Israel. Solomon gathers a large number of horses and chariots and even brings in horses from Egypt. Just as Deuteronomy 17 warns, collecting horses and chariots takes Israel back to Egypt. Finally, Solomon marries foreign women, and these women turn Solomon to other gods.

    Nehemiah:
    Deuteronomy 23:1 - Was a Eunuch



    If you want a good man, try looking at the Buddhists, or the Hindi Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
     
  20. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    first off, I think I should mention from my post "good men as far as men can be good."

    none of them were perfect, that goes without saying. But tyranical despots as Krump would have them described I think not.

    Also, Ive missed the verse were Nehemiah is mentioned as a Eunuch, where is that. Or are you going off the assumption that he was the kings wine bearer and therefore a eunuch. Which leads to the next thought Nehemiah did not go into the temple, it's mentioned in Nehemiah 6:10-14 that He doesn't go into the temple. so even if he is a eunuch he remained outside of were he was not allowed.

    Solomon also, as te Bible states sinned, he as self described "experienced everything" But he was no tyrant. And like David he returned to God, kind of theme in the Bible you know, returning to God.

    David you probably have the best case against, but even he repented of his ways.
     
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