Pro-life or Pro-choice? | Page 16 | INFJ Forum

Pro-life or Pro-choice?

acd said:
I can separate my beliefs from someone else's. I don't think my personal beliefs should dictate some one else's choices.

Abortion is not infanticide.
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And I respect that you believe that whether this should be a topic about beliefs or not. And it isn't infanticide, it is murder.
I could say child molestation isn't rape and be just as as correct as you are, but also, incorrect. You're blurring definitions.
 
Peppermint said:
I've got another question: Does a diploid cell have a soul? Does a non-human diploid cell have a soul? What about a haploid cell, human or non human?
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Yes. Just as child and adult are stages in human development, a Diploid and Haploid are no different.
That is the same as A=C and B=C, so A=B.
 
I'm also not saying a woman should be forced or made to carry out a pregnancy for any reason in any way. I firmly believe a woman should NOT be coerced, forced, made, legally required, etc., to carry out a pregnancy for any reason.
What I am saying is that woman should choose NOT to get an abortion without proper reason, and I am relying in good will, human heart, logic, and common sense to kick in and fuel that.
I am not telling them to do so, I am trying to convince them what is right and wrong.
But right now, since I am unable to convince, I am trying to inform.
 
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Dado said:
I am still waiting on admin to delete my account but while I am still here I could share my opinion on this topic. I also agree with points presented by @Misty and @John K

My belief is that life starts at conception (wiki on conception : the beginning of pregnancy involving fertilisation and implantation of the embryo onto the uterine wall) because at that moment soul or subtle body enters the zygot/embryo which then further instructs embryo with the help of DNA in what way it should develop.

So from mine perspective abortion is equivalent of killing living being. No matter what is the context, it is still murder because for woman to have voluntary abortion, she first needs to have intention to kill in her mind and every voluntary action leaves karmic impression in persons memory which means that person will reap consequence in future for her performed intentional action which in this case was killing of baby (action=reaction). It is not a surprise why more and more people on the west are depressed and suicidal while at same time each year millions of babies are killed. Huge karmic backlash...

That abortion is a wrong thing also becomes evident to a lot of woman in their older age when they become fully self aware of what they did, which usually leads to self hate and guilt. Also argument which says that "it is her body, her choice" doesn't hold water, because that "clump of cells" is actually separate living being with its own individual subtle body/soul/mind and physical body which is not yet fully independent of womans body while in womb but nevertheless that doesn't deny the fact that it is separate living being.

Also, people who get triggered by these responses like what I wrote and see this as some kind of shaming, they actually reveal themselves their own selfishness.
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This^
 
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Truth Eternity said:
Yes. Just as child and adult are stages in human development, a Diploid and Haploid are no different.
That is the same as A=C and B=C, so A=B.
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How are they no different?

Where does the soul arise from?

Does, for example a cell from human skin have a soul? Does a cell from a fungus have a soul? Does a gamete of any animal specie have a soul?

If soul arises on a cellular level, would you explain how this is supposed to happen?
 
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Peppermint said:
How are they no different?

Where does the soul arise from?

Does, for example a cell from human skin have a soul? Does a cell from a fungus have a soul? Does a gamete of any animal specie have a soul?

If soul arises on a cellular level, would you explain how this is supposed to happen?
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The soul arises on the conception of life. You're twisting my words. Don't do that.
 
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Truth Eternity said:
The soul arises on the conception of life. You're twisting my words. Don't do that.
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I am asking questions to get a better understanding of your claims about the soul, especially in a broader biological context. ie. do isolated cells have souls? What about organisms that reproduce asexually?

Do cells have a soul irrespective of the species, ploidy or tissue source?

If we assume a gamete has a soul (you said that it's just a life stage compared to "child" and "adult" stages, which in the context of human ontogeny can be considered valid - sort of) then when two gametes with a soul (is their soul independent or do they have the "same" soul as the organism they came from?) combine to create a diploid zygote, what happens to their souls/fragments of their souls to give rise to a presumably, new soul?



.
 
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Furthermore, I was just curious why the matter of the soul is brought up in a debate about abortion.

If haploid and diploid cells all have souls, then that sort of implies all life has a soul, even the simplest of life?

I am wondering because you passed moral judgment on murder of a zygote because it's got a soul. Should moral judgment be passed on the murder of everything with a soul?
 
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SpecialEdition said:
What about in the case of miscarriage?
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The baby dies and isn't murdered. It's a tragedy, but it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
But, in the topic of miscarriage, I'd recommend you this:
Skip to 3:30 if you want
You can believe it or not believe it, I don't even know if I believe it or not, but Landon states how he saw the soul of his mother's two miscarriages and told his mom about it. That was shocking to her, as she's never told him that.
But regardless, I know what I know, and even though science and religion both back it up, the ways I know cannot be discussed.
You are denying facts at point.
 
Peppermint said:
Furthermore, I was just curious why the matter of the soul is brought up in a debate about abortion.

If haploid and diploid cells all have souls, then that sort of implies all life has a soul, even the simplest of life?

I am wondering because you passed moral judgment on murder of a zygote because it's got a soul. Should moral judgment be passed on the murder of everything with a soul?
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You are, again, twisting my words. You are resulting to logical fallacies, and therefore have no point.
Please reply with something productive next time. And I apologize if I sound like I'm being snarky, I don't intend that.
Note my usage of "Human Soul," as that's what it's called. You're welcome.
 
Truth Eternity said:
You are, again, twisting my words. You are resulting to logical fallacies, and therefore have no point.
Please reply with something productive next time. And I apologize if I sound like I'm being snarky, I don't intend that.
Note my usage of "Human Soul," as that's what it's called. You're welcome.
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.

It is a shame we cannot have a productive discussion, but your evasiveness, obfuscation and lack of willingness to engage on common ground by being condescending suggests to me that your own point is likely either too poorly reasoned to be articulated or so deeply ingrained in your belief system that you believe others regard it as self evident as you do.
 
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Peppermint said:
.

It is a shame we cannot have a productive discussion, but your evasiveness, obfuscation and lack of willingness to engage on common ground by being condescending suggests to me that your own point is likely either too poorly reasoned to be articulated or so deeply ingrained in your belief system that you believe others regard it as self evident as you do.
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I am lacking the will for a common ground because there is none. There is right and wrong. The idea of abortion without significant reason being controversial is lunatic. The fact that people of.this forum, who I thought were supposed to be more careful and caring about these types of subjects, are blinded and unable to see basic morality is a little bit disappointing.
And I haven't been avoiding your answers. You know well you were wrong and are continually attempting to instigate an argument. Thay, along with my answers being common sense, were why my replies were short and sweet and to the point. I'm not here to argue, I generally care about people and these issues, and as harsh as it sounds, you are wrong. There is no "common ground" between murder. I'm sorry, but there just isn't. You feel entitled to kill a baby because of your lack of self control and your excess entitlement, and have convinced yourself that the flimsy reasons you've forged are sufficient excuses so you can not feel guilty. That's why pro choicers are the only ones who lash out. I have yet to see this type of behaviour from pro lifers. But I remain factionless. You clearly don't want to hear the truth. You avoid truth because you want to feel good. Basic human flaw -- I understand. But what starts to chip at my patience is your stubborn choice to stand by your word, not because that is your "belief," but because you want the convenience of killing babies because you don't want to make appropriate choices. It's simple. There is no controversy.

Note that you've also ignored all of my arguments and have attempted to put words in my mouth several times. I think you know you are wrong and are afraid to accept it. Quit arguing like a child. You are allowing lives to be taken.
 
Peppermint said:
is their soul independent or do they have the "same" soul as the organism they came from?
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Abort the primary soul source to end this thread
 
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It has always amazed me that the loudest anti abortionists are men. . controlling women seems to be the real issue. .Like the congressman who is so anti abortion, until his mistress gets pregnant and then he wants her to abort. . I guess like with many things. . I like to reflect on what Jesus had to say about this (if you insist on using christian values) . .nothing. . and don't try to make the case that there was not abortion then. . we know better. .
 
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Truth Eternity said:
The baby dies and isn't murdered. It's a tragedy, but it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
But, in the topic of miscarriage, I'd recommend you this:
Skip to 3:30 if you want
You can believe it or not believe it, I don't even know if I believe it or not, but Landon states how he saw the soul of his mother's two miscarriages and told his mom about it. That was shocking to her, as she's never told him that.
But regardless, I know what I know, and even though science and religion both back it up, the ways I know cannot be discussed.
You are denying facts at point.
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Are they facts or anecdotes?

If you have sources you can point me to I'd be happy to read them.

I'm not even trying to tell you that you're wrong. I think we both have beliefs at different ends of the spectrum.
 
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Truth Eternity said:
I am lacking the will for a common ground because there is none. There is right and wrong. The idea of abortion without significant reason being controversial is lunatic. The fact that people of.this forum, who I thought were supposed to be more careful and caring about these types of subjects, are blinded and unable to see basic morality is a little bit disappointing.
And I haven't been avoiding your answers. You know well you were wrong and are continually attempting to instigate an argument. Thay, along with my answers being common sense, were why my replies were short and sweet and to the point. I'm not here to argue, I generally care about people and these issues, and as harsh as it sounds, you are wrong. There is no "common ground" between murder. I'm sorry, but there just isn't. You feel entitled to kill a baby because of your lack of self control and your excess entitlement, and have convinced yourself that the flimsy reasons you've forged are sufficient excuses so you can not feel guilty. That's why pro choicers are the only ones who lash out. I have yet to see this type of behaviour from pro lifers. But I remain factionless. You clearly don't want to hear the truth. You avoid truth because you want to feel good. Basic human flaw -- I understand. But what starts to chip at my patience is your stubborn choice to stand by your word, not because that is your "belief," but because you want the convenience of killing babies because you don't want to make appropriate choices. It's simple. There is no controversy.

Note that you've also ignored all of my arguments and have attempted to put words in my mouth several times. I think you know you are wrong and are afraid to accept it. Quit arguing like a child. You are allowing lives to be taken.
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I think the problem is that you are very dead set in your beliefs about what is right and wrong, when cells become a human, when the soul enters the equation, etc and based on your beliefs you are exceptionally quick to label anyone with a different opinion as amoral, wrong, murderers or willing to murder, etc. There is a very blurry line in your beliefs about where you think it's OK to draw the line with killing a human baby, like in cases of rape, etc. So in your own way you're also OK with murder. Maybe God (if you believe in God) wanted that rape baby to come into the world but you're OK with it being aborted.

So I don't think it's as crystal clear and black and white as your posts make it out to be. If you said that you felt abortion was wrong to use as a method of birth control because people engaging in intercourse weren't using protection or pulling out on time, etc, that's something that I could understand. I think the way you communicate your ideas comes off as very extreme and off putting and doesn't give anyone room to have a conversation with you about it. I am not sure why you're not asking people WHY they believe what they believe but instead the way your posts are coming across is very righteous, morally superior and difficult to engage with on a subject that's obviously sensitive.

I don't believe any person in this thread is suggesting that you should just go out and abort a pregnancy for fun and fuck condoms and birth control or abstinence if that's your thing. I just don't think people are as heated and passionate about labeling it right or wrong as you are.

I think it's a little ironic is when you say that someone else's choice to stand by their word chips at your patience but I don't see a lot of give and take with you either. It's not asking you to move away from what you believe in but rather to try to understand that there are people who don't believe the same things that you do because of... who knows what reason. But if you wanted to convert anyone to your way of thinking about it I don't think trying to shame someone into accepting the label of casual amoral murderer is the way to go about it.
 
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