Philosophy Classics: Moral Rightness/Wrongness & the Will of God. | INFJ Forum

Philosophy Classics: Moral Rightness/Wrongness & the Will of God.

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A classic question, presented over 2,400 years ago.

Assuming that "moral rightness & wrongness" simply means that which is & is not in accordance with the will of God, then:

1) Is something moral solely because God wills it to be moral, or

2) does God will something to be moral because it is moral?


Bonus question: What is the name of the problem and what major effect did it have on the course of Western religion?
 
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There is ultimately no set rules for morality. God and religion are no required to feel empathy for people, but they do claim that that's what they offer, which is a blazing falsehood. The truth is that there is no higher authority that we can access that will give us the rule base we need. Therefor all morality is man made based on the culture of the society at the time.

Religion piggy backs on naturally evolved human emotional mechanics that helped us to survive like wanting to protect babies and men being disposable and liking cute things. This is in essence the truest sense of morality free from all the bullshit the god based religions dump all over it. We don't need religion to feel those things, just like God and Jesus had nothing to do with all human morality BEFORE 2500 years ago... by the way human written history beings around 10,000 years ago with he agricultural revolution.
1) Is something moral solely because God wills it to be moral, or
Pretending for a minute there is a god? Then yes, all gods beliefs would technically be moral beliefs.

2) does God will something to be moral because it is moral?
Again pretending there is a god (there isn't) what god chooses to do is moral, as he would be the highest authority in the universe. SO murdering all those midianites, burning sodom and all its homosexuals, telling Abraham to kill his son, forcing the Hebrews to melt down the gold calf, drink the gold and kill as many brothers and sisters as you can was alllll good clean Judeo-Christian morality. I am guessing so was the inquisition and crusades. God willed it and all.
 
I don't think God, being everything, is in any way affected by the actions we take. God is beyond good and evil where everything simply is.

Evil exists with good reason in principle. When there is only good then the goodness cannot be felt as contrast is needed to know what 'good' is.

In reality, evil can manifest itself in some pretty horrible ways - human beings are nothing if not inventive. But this is, I believe, due to the accelerating nature of reality. As human beings continue to evolve mentally and technologically it is inevitable that these will be put to use in violent and otherwise 'immoral' means.

But God just is. Everything that happens anywhere in the universe is (seemingly) indirectly experienced by God. And that is the point!
That's why there are such horrible things because this is an exploration into what happens when the universe happens and it goes on forever.

That's not to say you cannot overcome it - but 'immorality' is vital to this whole experience. Creation is always favoured over wilful destruction, though.
The Golden Rule is the most condensed moral guidance and the reasons why people do things that are destructive can often be boiled down to fear and insecurity.
 
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A classic question, presented over 2,400 years ago.

Assuming that "moral rightness & wrongness" simply means that which is & is not in accordance with the will of God, then:

1) Is something moral solely because God wills it to be moral, or

2) does God will something to be moral because it is moral?


Bonus question: What is the name of the problem and what major effect did it have on the course of Western religion?
I have a suspicion that morality is just something a rich infj made up so that he could feel more secure that the peasants wouldn't kill him and take all his gold.

"Don't kill me peasants! God says it is wrong and you all know I am the most spiritual and in tune with nature person around! Certainly you will believe that I have been blessed by god and he will smite you if you kill his holy one!" So all the peasants believed him and didnt kill him because it was " wrong".
 
I'm actually going to try to answer this, because it's not really a faith question, it's a logic problem.

I'm not sure what the context is here, but I think that the problem here is that God is unable to escape himself and therefore not omnipotent, because he can't actually contradict his own will. I don't know what effect it had on Western religion…

It probably pertains to Judaism because it predates Christianity and Islam while Hinduism and Buddhism are/were mostly polytheistic… I don't know who said it, though.

All of these things are guesses.
 
I'm actually going to try to answer this, because it's not really a faith question, it's a logic problem.

I'm not sure what the context is here, but I think that the problem here is that God is unable to escape himself and therefore not omnipotent, because he can't actually contradict his own will. I don't know what effect it had on Western religion…

It probably pertains to Judaism because it predates Christianity and Islam while Hinduism and Buddhism are/were mostly polytheistic… I don't know who said it, though.

All of these things are guesses.
You're the warmest so far Apone :D

I'll give a hint: the problem is titled after one of Plato's dialogues.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

God bless the internet.

What do I win?

Anyways, I guess I got it semi-right-- God's omnipotence would be called into question if morality existed independent of his will, though I suppose even an omnipotent being could create something and then refuse to dispute it or interfere with it in any way.

I haven't looked this up, but I would say that its impact on Western religion would be related to divine command-- it's more important to obey God (or more accurately, the law) than to take advantage of the opportunities we've been given… which is why we're not allowed to kill and rape even though we are free to do so.
 
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Well omnipotent wouldn't forbid there from being any outside laws. The omnipotent being would simply be free to do whatever it wanted, and even change them if it wished.

Think: what if you suddenly obtained the power to know everything and do anything? Does the fact that there were pre-existing laws before you prohibit you from anything? No.

The question of whether or not God would have invented the laws of good and evil is only useful insofar that one might question whether it is arbitrary or absolute. Neither case actually effects the powers of God.
 
.......accordance with the will of God........
.............God wills........
..........does God will something.........

This presupposes the human understanding of cause and effect.
 
A classic question, presented over 2,400 years ago.

Assuming that "moral rightness & wrongness" simply means that which is & is not in accordance with the will of God, then:
Hold on. So...that assumes :
a) God exists, and They do not contradict Each Other (say, Jesus vs Hades); The assumption goes that there is only one God (and other gods and their values were subsequently false); I contrasted Jesus with other gods because no matter how good / evil they are, they have different godly behaviors and values instilled and values desired from its followers; in other words, values that were deemed moral. The statement seemed to assume that there are only one True God, or if they acknowledge polytheism and/or different religions, the contradicting moral values were ignored.
b) God has only / all good intentions / embodiments of human traits; a.k.a, God is kind, God is wise, and never jealous, petty, vengeful, etc, etc....
c) Religion(s) is/are fruits of God, and not human. As is the case with a), it assumes the idea of One True Religion (and even Denomination, so for what it's worth the Westboro can be moral and everything else, immoral.), or if they acknowledge different religions, the contradicting values and beliefs and what constituted morality was ignored.

So I cannot argue otherwise under the reasoning that most religions are made, perpetuated, spread around, and upheld by humans. Okay.
I have to be honest those assumptions makes things very slanted..but let's try working in that constraint.

The idea of morality, as opposed to, say, infallible truth, or numerical equations, are less rigid in nature.
Let's say that from the outside they worked to create and upheld community peace and harmony; as time goes, people evolve and find new ways to create, preserve, and destroy them. From the inside, however, what's the basis of morality? It's even more subjective; one wishes to do good to others. Others feel it's the right, fair, just, and honorable thing to do and follow; the other believes in one thing because another person / Deity told them to.

Just from the perspective of purpose alone, there might be a lot of nuance that gives some possibility to one, the other, or both.

Oh, I'm taking the perspective that morality =/= the religion. If you want to argue about how Christianity is oppressive or how Greek religion promotes pederasty or lalala, yes, I hear you, but we're talking about extreme ideals, not the interpretation of a manifestation.

1) Is something moral solely because God wills it to be moral, or
This kind of perspective is more God-based; God wills it, so it be. On one hand, this level of perspective seem more definite. On the other hand, that perspective is also a tad......defeatist. Or rather, against free-will.

I think it's possible that something is moral because some higher being wills it to be moral. It could be argued that God chose things as moral for--something. Now my perspective is biased here, as someone living with a 'standard' kind of morality, but most things deemed moral are also things that are beneficial, whether personally or socially.

But human minds have conjured situations where things that can be moral in one hand (wisdom, seeking truth, following one's on belief) can also be immoral and opposing this particular choice at the same time (defying God, rage against the heavens..). When the moral trait is aimed towards The Creator(s) of the rule, is it moral, or immoral ? (think His Dark Materials)

That's my only question atm.

2) does God will something to be moral because it is moral?
This kind of perspective is more-- human-related. Notice that a lot of what is/was deemed moral are things that are good for humanity as a group, and sometimes humanity as an individual..but either way, they are good to humans, not animals or plants or the Earth or something.

I cannot delve into this deeper because we're talking about innate traits of morality within something, and for that we have to go within a particular set of morality and that is impossible to do.
 
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Hold on. So...that assumes :
a) God exists, and They do not contradict Each Other (say, Jesus vs Hades); The assumption goes that there is only one God (and other gods and their values were subsequently false); I contrasted Jesus with other gods because no matter how good / evil they are, they have different godly behaviors and values instilled and values desired from its followers; in other words, values that were deemed moral. The statement seemed to assume that there are only one True God, or if they acknowledge polytheism and/or different religions, the contradicting moral values were ignored.
b) God has only / all good intentions / embodiments of human traits; a.k.a, God is kind, God is wise, and never jealous, petty, vengeful, etc, etc....
c) Religion(s) is/are fruits of God, and not human. As is the case with a), it assumes the idea of One True Religion (and even Denomination, so for what it's worth the Westboro can be moral and everything else, immoral.), or if they acknowledge different religions, the contradicting values and beliefs and what constituted morality was ignored.

So I cannot argue otherwise under the reasoning that most religions are made, perpetuated, spread around, and upheld by humans. Okay.
I have to be honest those assumptions makes things very slanted..but let's try working in that constraint.

The idea of morality, as opposed to, say, infallible truth, or numerical equations, are less rigid in nature.
Let's say that from the outside they worked to create and upheld community peace and harmony; as time goes, people evolve and find new ways to create, preserve, and destroy them. From the inside, however, what's the basis of morality? It's even more subjective; one wishes to do good to others. Others feel it's the right, fair, just, and honorable thing to do and follow; the other believes in one thing because another person / Deity told them to.

Just from the perspective of purpose alone, there might be a lot of nuance that gives some possibility to one, the other, or both.

Oh, I'm taking the perspective that morality =/= the religion. If you want to argue about how Christianity is oppressive or how Greek religion promotes pederasty or lalala, yes, I hear you, but we're talking about extreme ideals, not the interpretation of a manifestation.


This kind of perspective is more God-based; God wills it, so it be. On one hand, this level of perspective seem more definite. On the other hand, that perspective is also a tad......defeatist. Or rather, against free-will.

I think it's possible that something is moral because some higher being wills it to be moral. It could be argued that God chose things as moral for--something. Now my perspective is biased here, as someone living with a 'standard' kind of morality, but most things deemed moral are also things that are beneficial, whether personally or socially.

But human minds have conjured situations where things that can be moral in one hand (wisdom, seeking truth, following one's on belief) can also be immoral and opposing this particular choice at the same time (defying God, rage against the heavens..). When the moral trait is aimed towards The Creator(s) of the rule, is it moral, or immoral ? (think His Dark Materials)

That's my only question atm.


This kind of perspective is more-- human-related. Notice that a lot of what is/was deemed moral are things that are good for humanity as a group, and sometimes humanity as an individual..but either way, they are good to humans, not animals or plants or the Earth or something.

I cannot delve into this deeper because we're talking about innate traits of morality within something, and for that we have to go within a particular set of morality and that is impossible to do.


Going to throw out their that God is Jealous, he even says so himself.

back on topic, from a Judeo-Christian perspective God has the stand on what is or is not moral, if he says destroy that city then it's okay, if he says love one another then that's what is moral. If he says it's okay then but now or vice versa, thats how God roles. Morality is dependent on him, not independent.
 
A classic question, presented over 2,400 years ago.

Assuming that "moral rightness & wrongness" simply means that which is & is not in accordance with the will of God, then:

1) Is something moral solely because God wills it to be moral, or

2) does God will something to be moral because it is moral?


Bonus question: What is the name of the problem and what major effect did it have on the course of Western religion?
I think 1. is associated with what is called casuastry which examines particular cases and tries to apply laws - and is a legalistic approach.
2. is associated with virtues ethics, which works on the principal that there is a good and a bad way for a particular nature to be used. (For example, it is good and praiseworthy to put unleaded fuel in a regular car, but it is wrong to put sugary water in it.)

If you take God to be the author of every existing nature - including intelligent beings, which are capable of morality - then it seems that God wills some creatures to be moral. However, for the sake of clarity, if God commands (through some sort of revelation/inspiration/etc.) a particular moral precept - this reveals something of the nature that is being commanded - presupposing that God both wills a nature to exist and to flourish. eg. If God commands that one should not tell lies, then this implies that lieing is destructive, or corrupting to intelligent, moral beings.
 
Ah the Euthyphro, maybe the only reading I remember anything about from Ancient Philosophy (so boring!) last semester. I believe the "answer" to the dilemma given by someone in a YouTube video went something like: "Morality is based on God's nature and it is revealed to us what those morals are." For example, it is wrong to lie because God cannot lie. Therefore the dilemma is a false dichotomy. Contradictions abound with that line of thinking however...
 
The problem is the question raised by Socrates to the priest Euthyphro. He asked Euthyphro what piety is, whether the Gods love it because it is innately pious, or whether it is pious because the Gods so love it. Pheado was an idiot who couldn't answer the question honestly but pretended to know more than Socrates poor mind could understand. I would call it the problem of God's Goodness.

As I would state it: Is God Good because God chooses Goodness rather than other possibilities, or is God Good because there are no other possibilities for God to choose?

If God chooses Goodness rather than other possibilities, it makes out that God is not inherently Good, but is so because of choosing to become Good by making Good choices.
If God cannot choose otherwise because no other possibilities exist then God is simply Good by Nature, and so whatever God chooses in fact turns out to be Good by default, secondarily by definition.

The question really is this: Does God experience "Goodness"? If it is already normative for God, if it is not something God "opts for", then how can it seem "better" than "not-good", or "evil"? In fact, how could evil even exist (another famous problem) How can an option to do otherwise even exist?

The truth is that it doesn't exist. God is a Mind, and a Mind is an Entity that endures experiences and propagates them through time and space as its own and only activity, and this feels REALLY "GOOD". Being God and Being Good are simply the same! It doesn't ever say to itself, this fundamental mind "Hmm, I'll do this because it is Good", and it doesn't "do it first and see how it goes". It just is Good AS IT IS, and it keeps growing, getting BETTER and BETTER. It does this, not because anything else is worse, not because it is "Good", but it just happens to be the case that an attempt to do otherwise would contradict the fundamental nature of existence, which is JUST THIS MIND DOING WHAT IT DOES. Any existence, any realm of minds where there seems to be an alternative to this are falsified and temporary, and inherently cause suffering of experience rather than enduring of it, or perhaps better rather than "savoring" of it.

But for a certain mind this just wasn't good enough. This means that it was allowed to manifest independence to such an extent that it was possible to be contrary to existence in God's Goodness without ceasing to exist, but only because it managed to overtake other beings who had not made such a choice and integrate them into itself so that their natures, still in favor of existence, were incorporated into its own larger-scale decision against incorporation into God's processes. This could happen only as long as those hostages were deceived. It is the gateway to hell, and such hostages live perpetually on its event horizon, being gradually sheered of their energy while the endure compromises and suffer consequences of such. This energy feeds the evil mind. This will be completely disabled in time. How it managed to manifest this way against the Will of God is the problem of evil and that is another question. The fact is that evil exists, and if anyone says otherwise then they simply have a host of problems to deal with, besides being full of bulldust. If anyone says it was God's plan then they have opened up a whole 'nother can of worms! But we can't get into those yet... The short story with me is that I hold that it wasn't intended or willed by God, but it wasn't prevented either. It is not desired by God, but God didn't create it. It was created by a being who takes responsibility for making repairs where possible and is repairing any part that cooperates with Her through another agent known as "The Father", who is doing some major surgery on this dimension to extract viable spiritual tissue. Either way, evil and error exist, the question is only this: Who do we blame? it isn't the highest being on the totem pole, in the Gnostic view, nor is it the lowest in power who unwillingly suffer it, but it is someone in the middle... and not the direct creator of that someone either, since She didn't will the consequences of her act in spite of finding out the harm they cause others. She is not blind to learning from what resulted from Her actions, but the being She created IS and always will be. This was a logical possibility within a lower order of God's creation as a whole, but it is not characteristic of it in essence, not necessary, and not eternal. It is also not irreparable. Evil was "discovered" by God, in effect, but not intended. It is also going to be discovered out of existence. But in the meantime we have to deal with it and overcome it since it will not overcome itself.

There are two important questions for each individual to answer as a result of realizing this state of affairs: Can I survive this experiment gone awry, and will I do what is necessary to survive it upon learning what that is? The only religion that really teaches this is Gnosticism of the non-Californian sort which is what Jesus and all the other Avatars from Zoroaster to Buddha, from Socrates to Mohammed were REALLY about before they were assassinated and their texts destroyed, or destroyed by being heavily distorted.

Other extremes of thought about this include the ideas espoused by paradigms somewhat encapsulated in the expressions of billy's and cornerstone's post. There is also "holy text" fundamentalism, which piggy backs off of the Gnostic truth while actually opposing it, really in the same way that the Demiurge himself did over 14 billion years ago. In other words, they are all Satan worshipers without even knowing it. Atheistic cultivated ignorance falls nicely into the evil mind's plans, and so does "we are all one, you need evil to understand goodness" new age nonsense. The only thing that the Demiurge, Yahweh, Saklas, Jehovah, etc HATES is the Gnostic Truth which exposes Him. Wherever it manifested its Avatar was conveniently slain and misrepresented and His movement suppressed and often genocided out of existence by, well, all the crapsack fools who keep things dirty, messy and confused so that the archons who control them can always get the upper hand on True Spirits trapped in falsified bodies whenever they try to awaken to the Gnostic Truth. The texts are destroyed or sanitized, evil society is normalized according to the evil mind's will, and life is back on track for the evil world of matter while Gnostics are put in their place at the bottom of society as usual without a peep from anyone else. Just see the peculiar truth of this in what history survives of it and how complacently and blissfully unmoved the normative human scum are when forced to see the utterly evil nature of their god and its religions. They are totally comfortable with their own fiat morality, which opposes the FIAT REALITY which the Real God IS.
 
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