Occupy Protests Go Global | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Occupy Protests Go Global

Everyone has different views and opinions, all of them hold some validity, but I believe before any change can be made, those we elect in to positions of power should set the standard, and they should do so by balancing the budget, look at it this way
budget.jpg
 
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And what constitutes a "good sense" of right and wrong? Who's to judge what is considered a "good conscience"? There is no scientific or empirical conclusion on these matters. Ethics are very subjective. They are based on PERSONAL feelings. Your deeply held beliefs on these matters that you may not even REALIZE are not empirically proven to be correct, are completely subjective.

I would certainly agree that any government needs to have the support of their people in order to have "legitimacy". But my main point is that when people get all riled up when they think that something's going on that is "wrong", they usually don't realize how subjective their assessment is. When they assess something as "wrong", that is not a scientific or empirical wrong. They basically take "I don't like this" and play it up as something more than that. Essentially, when people protest, they are saying "I don't like this. I want things to be run the way I like".

Further, when you support violence as a means to further causes that YOU agree with, you're basically saying that violence is OK as long as it is helping YOU get what YOU want, because YOUR personal beliefs and feelings are more important than other people's who may not share your beliefs. There's an assumption there that you are infallible.
While ethics may be judged on an individual level as subjective, the ethical virtue of the masses determines the laws in which we govern ourselves. And while some laws may not translate between cultures, such as homosexuality, abortion, drug use, and spousal abuse, there are some laws that are revered as basic inalienable rights, and those rights are based on the ethical opinion of the masses, such as the right to live, and the right to freedom. If a large enough population of the world comes to an agreement that something is immoral or unethical, can that not be considered empirical data? I would think that through the sheer act of observing the state of the world and how many countries have chosen to rise up against those in power would be sufficient enough to say, that something is wrong. While I do not condone violence, there is something to be said about those who act against tyranny. Throughout your post, you capitalized the words, you, and your, and personal, but what happens, when those words change to, Us, Our, Public, or We, as in We the people
 
While ethics may be judged on an individual level as subjective, the ethical virtue of the masses determines the laws in which we govern ourselves. And while some laws may not translate between cultures, such as homosexuality, abortion, drug use, and spousal abuse, there are some laws that are revered as basic inalienable rights, and those rights are based on the ethical opinion of the masses, such as the right to live, and the right to freedom. If a large enough population of the world comes to an agreement that something is immoral or unethical, can that not be considered empirical data? I would think that through the sheer act of observing the state of the world and how many countries have chosen to rise up against those in power would be sufficient enough to say, that something is wrong. While I do not condone violence, there is something to be said about those who act against tyranny. Throughout your post, you capitalized the words, you, and your, and personal, but what happens, when those words change to, Us, Our, Public, or We, as in We the people… I agree that this movement is unfocused, and will likely lead to nothing more than bunch of people arguing about how things should proceed if given the opportunity, but that does not mean they are wrong or misguided. We must also remember that if it had not been for the act of violence against repression we could all be speaking German, or French, or we could have English accent.

I just wish there was an actual platform. Otherwise the only message is "we're not happy, and we're blaming those in a position of abundance and power".
 
I just wish there was an actual platform. Otherwise the only message is "we're not happy, and we're blaming those in a position of abundance and power".

I agree with you on that, but sadly I don't think that will ever happen. This to shall pass.
 
Everyone has different views and opinions, all of them hold some validity, but I believe before any change can be made, those we elect in to positions of power should set the standard, and they should do so by balancing the budget, look at it this way
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Those we elect into positions of power are bought by the bankers. The political process is corrupted by the wealth and influence of the bankers. The reason we are in so much debt (nationally) is because of how the current banking system works (concerning for example the printing of money by privately owned central banks).

The protestors have identified who holds the real power. They know that the government is in debt to the bankers and that the political advisors of elected politicians are bankers

The people believe that they are part of a society which they pay taxes into in return for certain protections and rights.

What people are now coming to understand, in large numbers, is that the government, regulators, press and police are not representing the interests of the people. They have now realised that these groups actually represent the interests of a small number of now very wealthy people (the 1%).

So now people feel that the social contract they had with the government in which they will be law abiding and hard working citizens in return for rights and protections has been betrayed.

The people now know that a small bunch of people have used their vast wealth to manipulate the system to their favour. The cat is out of the bag. Now it just needs for more and more people to wake up to this truth.

The protests provide a rallying point for the people (the 99%)

These protest groups are not without direction. They are already organising with other protest groups nationally and internationally as they consolidate their own power and influence so that they can challenge the authority of the 1%. It takes time to organise, but what has taken the bankers hundreds of years to achieve the people are throwing together in the space of months!

There are different opinions within the movement but there is no harm in that. One aim of the movement is to encourage people's assemblies through which everyone can have a voice and democracy can work from the bottom up, in which various actions can be decided on through consensus: http://takethesquare.net/2011/07/31/quick-guide-on-group-dynamics-in-peoples-assemblies/
 
Need a cause to stand behind? I think everyone in the Internet age should get this sign; I don't know how much clearer it gets as for the "cause" behind the protests:

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I just get the sense that people who support this Occupy "movement" have noooooooooooo clue what they're talking about, and just want to crusade and be a part of something. All I ever hear are vague accusations and rhetoric. SPECIFICALLY, who is doing what? "The rich are preying on the poor" is not good enough. "The government is being bought out by bankers" is not good enough. "Politicians are corrupt" is not good enough. No specifics. How can you believe that this stuff is happening, and not have specifics to base your beliefs on?
 
Pay attention, read a news article. Listen to news radio.
Go on one of the Occupy sites.
Educate yourself.
 
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Those we elect into positions of power are bought by the bankers. The political process is corrupted by the wealth and influence of the bankers. The reason we are in so much debt (nationally) is because of how the current banking system works (concerning for example the printing of money by privately owned central banks).

The protestors have identified who holds the real power. They know that the government is in debt to the bankers and that the political advisors of elected politicians are bankers

The people believe that they are part of a society which they pay taxes into in return for certain protections and rights.

What people are now coming to understand, in large numbers, is that the government, regulators, press and police are not representing the interests of the people. They have now realised that these groups actually represent the interests of a small number of now very wealthy people (the 1%).

So now people feel that the social contract they had with the government in which they will be law abiding and hard working citizens in return for rights and protections has been betrayed.

The people now know that a small bunch of people have used their vast wealth to manipulate the system to their favour. The cat is out of the bag. Now it just needs for more and more people to wake up to this truth.

The protests provide a rallying point for the people (the 99%)

These protest groups are not without direction. They are already organising with other protest groups nationally and internationally as they consolidate their own power and influence so that they can challenge the authority of the 1%. It takes time to organise, but what has taken the bankers hundreds of years to achieve the people are throwing together in the space of months!

There are different opinions within the movement but there is no harm in that. One aim of the movement is to encourage people's assemblies through which everyone can have a voice and democracy can work from the bottom up, in which various actions can be decided on through consensus: http://takethesquare.net/2011/07/31/quick-guide-on-group-dynamics-in-peoples-assemblies/
Who bought who and who controls what does not matter. It is only going to take one word to seek the change you desire, the word "NO" and until our leaders can say no to money and power, there is no hope. Attacking money is not going to change any thing, you have to attack the morality of those who have the power to change.
 
I just get the sense that people who support this Occupy "movement" have noooooooooooo clue what they're talking about, and just want to crusade and be a part of something. All I ever hear are vague accusations and rhetoric. SPECIFICALLY, who is doing what? "The rich are preying on the poor" is not good enough. "The government is being bought out by bankers" is not good enough. "Politicians are corrupt" is not good enough. No specifics. How can you believe that this stuff is happening, and not have specifics to base your beliefs on?

What would be a 'smoking gun' for you? We'll never get signed confessions man!

There are many viewpoints out there as to what the causes are and what the solutions should be. The information someone gives you will depend on their own political bias. Also the problem is not just a national one but a global one so at what level do you try to fix the problem? Anarcho-communism makes sense to me....you just need to try and hear as many viewpoints as you can and see what makes sense to you.

Followers of the Austrian School of economics might argue that we need to return to the Gold standard, which had been agreed at Bretton Woods ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Monetary_and_Financial_Conference ) and that the US should never have switched to fiat currency under Nixon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock)

However some might caution against this on the basis of who they believe is now holding the most gold. They might instead advocate a government controlled supply of paper money such as the 'greenback' made by Lincoln.

Some followers of the Austrian school of economics might argue for 'anarcho-capitalism' which to me sounds like a total nightmare. The 'end the fed' campaign is being fought in the US, with Ron Paul being a major flag bearer. That doesn't mean i disagree with everything these guys are saying because i don't. They make a lot of sense when they are diagnosing the problem, but i do not agree with their solution (another form of capitalism...i want to see capitalism go altogether)

Some are followers of the ideas of the Frankfurt school, others are critical of it and some implicate it in a wider plot to control society.

Some are Keynesians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics) , some are monetarists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetarists )

Some will say that 'freemarket fundamentalism' caused the crisis and that we need greater government interference in the markets, while others will counter that by saying that we did not have 'real capitalism' and 'free markets' in the first place.

You can argue for hours over this stuff and get no nearer to a resolution. So what is actually happening on the ground?

Unemployment is up. I'm sure you could find some nice graphs to illustrate this easily enough, if you like that sort of thing.

Inflation is increasing, public services are being cut, pensions have dissapeared, debt both individual and national is rising, small businesses are failing (and some big ones too!), people are losing their homes, wars are raging, the environment is being damaged.

I'm sure you could get facts or figures or graphs for all of these easily enough online...forgive me if i don't spend my evening looking them out for you; if you're interested enough, you can find what you're looking for.

As a backdrop to all this we are seeing a seemingly endless stream of stories about corruption in high places. Giving you examples in my home country the UK would be easier for me but i'm sure the story is the same in the US. For example we all know that the rating agencies were passing off toxic debts as 'triple A' (which means that they are a safe investment). Meanwhile 'regulators' such as the FSA (Financial Services Authority) have been caught napping as they have not stopped any of the practices which have lead to the crisis, which reinforces what many of us suspected that the regulators do not really regulate but are really there only to give an illusion to the public that someone is protecting the public. In high profile cases regulators have failed to protect the public in a number of areas for example: price fixing by large corporations (such as supermarkets), mobile phone contracts, energy costs.

Our politcians have been caught up in expense scandals, sleaze, torture and have been exposed as lying to take us to war.

The press is owned by billionaires such as Rupert Murdoch whose papers have been found to be illegally tapping peoples phones....the police were involved as well with the head of the metropolitan police having to resign over it.

So again and again it has been proven that the very bodies the public expect to represent or protect them (the police, the politicians, the regulators, the press) have not been protecting them at all. This has lead to people losing faith in these groups and taking to the streets in protest.

Some capitalists have thrown their free market principles out of the window by creating what they call 'too big to fail' corporations so that when they failed they then got governments to bail them out. Do some research into where that bailout money has gone. Also look into why bankers are still getting such big bonuses after their organisations have failed.

Some would argue that this is part of a larger agenda to indebt countries to the global investors and to pressure governments into selling off assets cheaply which the global investors can then buy up. You can find stories about government 'firesales' if you look for them.

You will hear many ideas out there as to what should be done from anarchism to fascism, for various forms of capitalism but the protests have arisen out of very real factors which are affecting peoples lives. Most people have been living lawfully and paying their taxes but have found that the authorities have not only been lying over many issues but have also been aiding the movement of public wealth into private hands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism)

In the wider world US based institutions such as the world bank and IMF have been exploiting other countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_consensus)

To say the protestors don't know what they are doing is wrong. Due to the internet many people are very savy about what is going on. So far they have waged a successful and peaceful campaign. With winter on the way it is yet to be seen what will hit them first, cold weather or an authoritarian government intent on protecting the bankers that fund their political campaigns (i'm sure you could get some facts and figures about lobbying and campaign funds online easily enough).

If you don't mind the fact that it is run by the Russian government (and is therefore obviously russian propaganda!) then RT (Russia Today) usually interviews people with some interesting viewpoints which you won't find in the western corporate mainstream media, for example the Keiser Report, which has all its back dated episodes as well...you might find it interesting as a counter point to western propaganda! (http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/)
 
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Who bought who and who controls what does not matter. It is only going to take one word to seek the change you desire, the word "NO" and until our leaders can say no to money and power, there is no hope. Attacking money is not going to change any thing, you have to attack the morality of those who have the power to change.

Marx said over a hundred years ago that the government is the committee of the bourgeoisie, implying that they don't represent the workers. His words are looking truer by the day. The government really does work for the bankers. That happens partly because of the nature of the political system in which vast sums of money are required to campaign. So reforming that might be one option....take the money out of politics eg by capping their budgets.

Morality is quite abstract. I think we can accept that within a certain culture for example one given to competition, some people will compromise on agreed morality in order to gain an advantage

Perhaps instead we should create a system which is better able to dilute that urge. For example peoples assemblies. Imagine there is a company which is owned by one person. That person will probably organise that company in such a way that they become wealthy off the hard work of their employees. The harder he/she can push the workers and the less he/she pays them the more profit they will make. Decisions will be made on the selfish basis of the individual.

If however the same company was owned and run by all the workers who decided everything between themselves in workers councils which used consensus democracy to come to agreements then any selfish decisions would likely be overturned by the majority, so the selfish impulses of individuals would be diluted and everyone would benefit from better pay and work conditions. Oh and the oppressive boss....they would have to work like everyone else because they would be boss to no one except themself.

So i think there are ways to tackle human failings in such a way that destructive outcomes such as we are seeing in the economy right now can be avoided and greater fairness achieved.

Money is a tool. As a fiat currency its value is not fixed. Some people exploit the nature of fiat currency to their advantage...which usually comes at a cost to others. I see money as an illusion used to empower some and enslave others, so i do see value in attacking it.

There is no point criticisng the morality of people in power because humans are fallible. So instead we need to think about ways to manage the fallibility whilst encouraging the better side of human nature.

Concerning saying 'no' i think that many people are expressing that sentiment right now by protesting in the street or by voting with their feet in a variety of ways. Maybe if enough people do it 'the power elites' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_elites ) will decide to listen. Failing that the global solidarity created by the movement may be the springboard for a parallel system or a powerful reformist movement within the current one.
 
Marx said over a hundred years ago that the government is the committee of the bourgeoisie, implying that they don't represent the workers. His words are looking truer by the day. The government really does work for the bankers. That happens partly because of the nature of the political system in which vast sums of money are required to campaign. So reforming that might be one option....take the money out of politics eg by capping their budgets.

Morality is quite abstract. I think we can accept that within a certain culture for example one given to competition, some people will compromise on agreed morality in order to gain an advantage

Perhaps instead we should create a system which is better able to dilute that urge. For example peoples assemblies. Imagine there is a company which is owned by one person. That person will probably organise that company in such a way that they become wealthy off the hard work of their employees. The harder he/she can push the workers and the less he/she pays them the more profit they will make. Decisions will be made on the selfish basis of the individual.

If however the same company was owned and run by all the workers who decided everything between themselves in workers councils which used consensus democracy to come to agreements then any selfish decisions would likely be overturned by the majority, so the selfish impulses of individuals would be diluted and everyone would benefit from better pay and work conditions. Oh and the oppressive boss....they would have to work like everyone else because they would be boss to no one except themself.

So i think there are ways to tackle human failings in such a way that destructive outcomes such as we are seeing in the economy right now can be avoided and greater fairness achieved.

Money is a tool. As a fiat currency its value is not fixed. Some people exploit the nature of fiat currency to their advantage...which usually comes at a cost to others. I see money as an illusion used to empower some and enslave others, so i do see value in attacking it.

There is no point criticisng the morality of people in power because humans are fallible. So instead we need to think about ways to manage the fallibility whilst encouraging the better side of human nature.

Concerning saying 'no' i think that many people are expressing that sentiment right now by protesting in the street or by voting with their feet in a variety of ways. Maybe if enough people do it 'the power elites' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_elites ) will decide to listen. Failing that the global solidarity created by the movement may be the springboard for a parallel system or a powerful reformist movement within the current one.
I can understand what you are saying, but I do not think money should be the focus. We are moving in the direction of a cash less society, and soon money will have no value. We see this consolidation of monitary incraments in Europe with the Euro, the merging of markets on a global scale, and soon , all the variables will be eliminated and that is what is causeing the strain and stress we see now. Those with money are trying get as much as they can before it disapears, just as the oil companys are. We have the technology to provide free energy to the world, we have enough food to feed the masses, we are reaching a point in history where will either change to a global economy and develop a sense of unversal truth or our greed will tear us apart. while I may not see this in my life time, I am sure my children will, that is unless zombies destory the world in 2012.....
 
I have a comment.

When is the police brutality in the US - where the police defacto are behaving like a violent counter protest/paramilitary - going to lead to protests forming their own spontaneous paramilitaries/militias in defence?

What are you talking about?
 
What are you talking about?

[MENTION=3473]InvisibleJim[/MENTION] 's talking about the supporting argument Charlton Heston gave in defense of the NRA about 15 years ago when referencing a "police state".
 
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I think he's talking about Scott Olson, the Vet who was shot in the face with a tear-gas canister.
 
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I can understand what you are saying, but I do not think money should be the focus. We are moving in the direction of a cash less society, and soon money will have no value. We see this consolidation of monitary incraments in Europe with the Euro, the merging of markets on a global scale, and soon , all the variables will be eliminated and that is what is causeing the strain and stress we see now. Those with money are trying get as much as they can before it disapears, just as the oil companys are. We have the technology to provide free energy to the world, we have enough food to feed the masses, we are reaching a point in history where will either change to a global economy and develop a sense of unversal truth or our greed will tear us apart. while I may not see this in my life time, I am sure my children will, that is unless zombies destory the world in 2012.....

The owl does have the eyes to see in the dark...

I absolutely agree that we are transitioning to something new...new order from the chaos

However i agree with Chomsky that wherever you have centralised power you have corruption and exploitation; so what order would be best for the people?

The dream of a unified world doesn't disturb me, the thought of a mismanaged unified world disturbs me...the potential for missuse of power and the curtailment of personal freedoms

Will it be a spiritually dead world of ignorant, braindead, tranquilised consumers increasingly fused with silicon consciousness or will it be a world of empowered individuals who are free to follow their own path whilst recognising the strength in cooperation?

I want to see community succeed on a grand scale but i don't want to be plugged into the borg to see it happen (matrix style!)...over my dead body
 
This is what the protests should be modeling themselves after...

[video=youtube_share;-XarpddX1BI]http://youtu.be/-XarpddX1BI[/video]
 
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[video=youtube;2JlxbKtBkGM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2JlxbKtBkGM#![/video]
 
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