misogyny around the US | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

misogyny around the US

I feel that people who follow the gender equality line of thought believe that gender is irrelevant. That very few areas of functioning are completely sex based and that most interaction methods that are "radically different" are just proponents of the culture that is influencing them. I don't believe it's discrediting the notion that men will never bleed out of their vagina and have a baby and women will never go through Testosterone cycles and what not that men go through. Men being physically stronger than women (typically) is a biological difference that can influence gender (women are weaker so therefore they can't do any hard labor mentality, for example).

Well, by your statement "completely sex based"... I agree. There are very, very few places that this would be the case. I'm just talking about radically different in terms of, say, the ways in which they prioritize the outcome of a conversation: Men in general tend to use conversation and discussion in the corporate environment to primarily share "tactical" information, and tend to do this in a more direct and "assertive" manner than women. Women tend to prioritize interpersonal cooperation more, so tactical information will be shared in a more suggestive and indirect manner than their male counterparts, and women will also discuss less "tactical" information more freely than men (again, in general). I believe this type of "tendency" of men to place an inherent higher value on "hard data", and discuss it in a manner that clearly indicates a "lower context" form of communication. Women on the other hand will choose words that are more "cooperative" and "agreeable" in the very nature of their communication.

Women will more frequently use phrases such as "I may not have explained this as carefully as I should have" when in a situation that requires them to re-direct the actions of fellow employees who are doing a task incorrectly. Men will do this too! HOWEVER... they do it MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY if talking to a SUPERIOR... if talking to a subordinate, men will more often speak very directly, like "I have explained this already, is there something you needed to know in order to get it going properly?"
But WOMEN... in this case, will use the same type of "cooperative phrasing" regardless of talking to a superior or a subordinate. This is cross cultural, and in fact research shows that word choice in fact helps provide insight into some very different, somewhat primal "core values" that men and women in fact differ from one another fairly significantly.

Also, women tend to determine the relative value of an interaction more as a function of what was revealed or shared, whereas men actively seek a "resolution", or "answer". Some studies have shown that this is in fact very much so a "hard wired" difference between men and women. I might look up some references for this post at a later date.


I think it may be the fact that the "good ole boy" system still exists and that women tend to face problems with rising to high power due to sexist individuals who want to drag them down. Another thing could also be said about how many resources women have to do such a thing. Historically speaking, until now, women didn't tend to have a chance at getting to the top levels. Some men (and women) don't like seeing women above a man. So, my suggestion would be that some things are culturally inspired (as in turning women away from science for example) and that needs to be examined as well.

Yes, I do agree these points are valid, but I contend that they fail in explaining why in ANY area of study that I can think of, the top 5 individuals are so disproportionately male. (i'm also not even considering areas where it is exclusively a male or female arena, or athletics of any sort) I'll admit i'm not thinking very hard about it... but, feel free to suggest an academic, artistic, vocational, or avocational arena in which the top 5 individuals are predominately women. Anywhere, of any sort, now, or in the past. I find it quite shocking myself that I can't think of even one field where this is the case...but, again, i'm not thinking very hard, and would love to be proven wrong here.

You should look at the research on multitasking. Some scientist imply that it doesn't exist and others imply that there is no significant difference between men adn women in the area of mutlitasking (or switch) tasking. It may be up your alley.

I've seen some "pop science" articles on just this... but, i've never looked at the data with a very discriminating eye. I've seen anecdotal evidence to such a large degree that I may have overlooked this. I'll consider it some time, but feel free to link an article or something you recommend.

I may add in my information later but I also may not. This post is long and mostly anecdotal and I don't have the time to add my conflicting anecdotal stories.

Well, it may not be AS anecdotal as you may think... but i'll be the first to admit i am choosing from "well suited" examples from studies i've come across over the past 15ish years. Some were extremely well conducted, and in fact broke ground in gender "studies". And others i'm sure were more "suspect". But a lot is from memory, and there is some anecdotal stuff as well.

As a tl;dr, I would state:

Women have faced problems with asking climbing to the top because of their gender. It is a real problem. Because of the way people tend to view gender in the U.S., some women are persuaded outside of doing what they truly want to do. Or receive less help.
Everyone exists on a spectrum, quite a few women are driven to success in their job as far as they can reach success.
The good ole boy infrastructure still exists. WASP-y people tend to have a lot of money and be well to do. People who aren't WASP-y have a hard time doing the same things that WASP-y people do. You can see the influences everywhere, just one I dealt with today was the notion that for movies to sell well, the main character should be a white male. That's your target audience.
Agreeing that all women mutlitask better than men also tacitally implies that all men focus better than women. Those assertions are contested in many places.
Human are fairly unique in our way of adapting to consistent and constant change. I find that men and women in today's society are sluding towards the middle. Men are becoming more feminized and women are becoming more masculine, gender wise.

Agree overall again. Nothing I said in fact is in opposition to any of this. I really just was seeking to make a point that there is a proclivity for men to be more overtly competitive, risk taking, and single minded than women (on the whole). Yes, some women have these traits as well, and they are the ones that occupy one or two of the "top 5" positions in any field/vocation/whatever. It's just most women don't share this to the extent that men do, on the level anyway. And I don't believe this is a "cultural phenomena". Men simply don't have "biological clocks" they way many women do. Men have more of a psychological need to be "better" than others at something that offers distinct and clear boundaries on what "better" means. Women tend to be "better" at things that don't have such clearly defined boundaries. What makes a "better" caregiver? How would you score who is the "best at nurturing creativity in the workplace?" or how about who's the winner at "getting what they want while maintaining high levels of diplomacy and cooperation at all times."

You see, these are actually really powerful and really valueable skills that women tend to have a natural proclivity for, and men tend to struggle more.

it's just they don't lend themselves to being "ranked" or "scored" as clearly or easily. Why? because women intrinsically place less value on such "scoring" But men don't.... and this makes a big difference as to what arenas men and women prefer to wok at, and are best suited to excel at, and maybe even more importantly... how "visable" those areas are to the rest of the world.

-E
 
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Indeed. Abusive men will try to subdue many different types of women.

Well, this isn't always an "abusive" behavior pattern. It very well can be of course! but, it's not hte exclusive domain of abusers. Think of a "super competitive guy who sees overcoming a strong or very direct woman as a challenge"
Personally, I don't get it, but I had a friend once who really enjoyed dating "powerful" women, and finding out what absolutley drove them wild in bed. He would then play off this in a sort of playful teasing manner... of course, this is all 2nd and 3rd party feedback i heard, but, i did hear it from both sides (him and the girl), on more than one occassion. One girl actually admitted over drinks that she would likely do just about anything to get another night like the previous (she was pretty buzzed by this point!) I don't remember much else, as my buddy was the "playboy" type, and i'm the "relationship" type... and I believe I was somewhat uncomfortable and just excused myself for the rest of the evening.

Anyway, point is there is one real life example of a guy who was into that... who I'm pretty darn sure wouldn't hurt a fly (playful/sensitive/lusty/sensual was his speed, not aggressive/violent/dysfunctional/etc) He just loved to find out what made a girl "tick", and then loved exploring that at his whim.

Nuff said, u get the point i'm sure.

-E
 
I've live in three different cities in the US.

...



...


*struggles to contain self*

:m065:

Not at the same time I hope.

Anyway I do not find that 'strong women' get pushed around/manipulated by men or that 'strong men' get pushed around/manipulated by women.

What I do find is that aggressive people who overreach meet resistance in all corners.

In my adventures in Houston I have discovered that it is a socially non-confrontational place and as a consequence anyone who is confrontational is a target.

I believe the correct phraseology is that Texans are less tolerant of outsiders than other places; this makes a lot of sense when you consider the unique dangers that other cultures which have not commingled within Houston successfully present to those who are productive.

I do often feel that women start these threads because they are nannied by 'positive' sexism in their local community and families and thus feel the world is a very threatening place when suddenly someone says no. They don't realise that this type of outsider scepticism is applied immediately to any male in any situation unless you have a trusted insider who introduces you/paves the way.
 
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...Yes, I do agree these points are valid, but I contend that they fail in explaining why in ANY area of study that I can think of, the top 5 individuals are so disproportionately male. (i'm also not even considering areas where it is exclusively a male or female arena, or athletics of any sort) I'll admit i'm not thinking very hard about it... but, feel free to suggest an academic, artistic, vocational, or avocational arena in which the top 5 individuals are predominately women. Anywhere, of any sort, now, or in the past. I find it quite shocking myself that I can't think of even one field where this is the case...but, again, i'm not thinking very hard, and would love to be proven wrong here....

...it's just they don't lend themselves to being "ranked" or "scored" as clearly or easily. Why? because women intrinsically place less value on such "scoring" But men don't.... and this makes a big difference as to what arenas men and women prefer to wok at, and are best suited to excel at, and maybe even more importantly... how "visable" those areas are to the rest of the world.

-E

Here are some fields in which the top 5 individuals are likely women: http://career-advice.monster.com/salary-benefits/salary-information/100k-jobs-women/article.aspx
At least, they are female-dominated professions that offer high salaries. I don't actually know who the top five people in those fields are, or if they are even ranked. Is there a pharmacist olympiad or a contest about who is the best anesthetist? All I know is I wouldn't want to be cared for by the losers, if there is. Anyway, according to that link some female dominated professions where at least some of the top 5 performers are likely women are:

Obstetrician/Gynecologist
Anesthetist
Pharmacist
Optometrist
Senior Program Marketing Manager

I'm also pretty sure that many of the best teachers are women.

And I personally agree with the bolded part. For me, knowing you didn't screw something up, or that you personally did your best in whatever it is you tried to do, is much more fulfilling than getting some dumb award, which was probably bought and paid for anyway, like many "contests" tend to be in some fields. I'm not talking about athletics, I am referring to the various ways people can enter "competitions" with hefty fees, and then be pretty much guaranteed an award just for having entered. Also in some professional areas you can take a "class" to get "certified" in some area, and it means very little. And then half the time people just make it up completely. But of course, everyone who is not an insider just drools over that sort of thing.

I also found this article about more men entering female-dominated professions: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/b...n-jobs-dominated-by-women.html?pagewanted=all

...His starting salary will be about a third what he once earned, but database consulting does not typically earn hugs like the one Mr. Cook recently received from a girl after he took care of her premature baby sister. “It’s like, people get paid for doing this kind of stuff?” Mr. Cook said, choking up as he recounted the episode.

Several men cited the same reasons for seeking out pink-collar work that have drawn women to such careers: less stress and more time at home. At John G. Osborne Elementary, Adrian Ortiz, 42, joked that he was one of the few Mexicans who made more in his native country, where he was a hard-working lawyer, than he did in the United States as a kindergarten teacher in a bilingual classroom. “Now,” he said, “my priorities are family, 100 percent.”
 
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Here are some fields in which the top 5 individuals are likely women: http://career-advice.monster.com/salary-benefits/salary-information/100k-jobs-women/article.aspx
At least, they are female-dominated professions that offer high salaries. I don't actually know who the top five people in those fields are, or if they are even ranked. Is there a pharmacist olympiad or a contest about who is the best anesthetist? All I know is I wouldn't want to be cared for by the losers, if there is. Anyway, according to that link some female dominated professions where at least some of the top 5 performers are likely women are:

Obstetrician/Gynecologist
Anesthetist
Pharmacist
Optometrist
Senior Program Marketing Manager

I'm also pretty sure that many of the best teachers are women.

And I personally agree with the bolded part. For me, knowing you didn't screw something up, or that you personally did your best in whatever it is you tried to do, is much more fulfilling than getting some dumb award, which was probably bought and paid for anyway, like many "contests" tend to be in some fields. I'm not talking about athletics, I am referring to the various ways people can enter "competitions" with hefty fees, and then be pretty much guaranteed an award just for having entered. Also in some professional areas you can take a "class" to get "certified" in some area, and it means very little. And then half the time people just make it up completely. But of course, everyone who is not an insider just drools over that sort of thing.

I also found this article about more men entering female-dominated professions: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/b...n-jobs-dominated-by-women.html?pagewanted=all

Sorry this, I feel you may have "wasted" a post to some degree.

I have no doubt that those professions, as well as many others, are dominated by women, and much of the "progress" that those fields experience is led by or at least highly influenced by women.

In fact, i'm surprised there aren't MORE situations like this as I type...

but, as you did point out yourself, those arn't really positions where one can easily "rank and score" how "good" someone really is.

My post was drawn out and I didn't summarize or draw attention to the very specific points I was making, so that's kinda my bad.

Show me a field where someone is ranked #1 by some sort of standard. Even if it's just the overwhelming, widespread positive recognition of their peers.

In these types of fields, where someone can point and say "There...taht person over there...they are one of the 3 best in the world at Blah Blah Blah"

Those professions/activities/whatever I find are overwhelmingly dominated by men....

For instance, I just looked up TOP 10 FASHION DESIGNERS IN THE WORLD. I actually really believed that this would be at very least evenly dispersed.

Nope, not even close. 10 companies, 11 designers (one is a 2 person shop), and only 3 are women. 3 out of 11 of the worlds most popular fashion designers are women. And, these folks design more womens clothes than mens clothes any day.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about. I don't want anyone to be mistaken in thinking that I am of the opinion that women can't outperform men in many high end, high salary vocations. They can, and do, and I am surprised it doesn't actually happen more often.

But show me a vocation with some sort of "top 5 best So-and-So's of their kind", and i'll show you list of 3, 4, or 5 men. Something about testosterone and clearly defined boundaries of "best and worst"... these fields tend to attract outwardly ambitious and competitive people... most of whom tend to be men.

-E

P.S. Oh, and for the "award" part... i'm not talking about things like that...things that can be "bought". I'm talking about recognition and/or high profile success like this:

http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/art...p-10-most-popular-fashion-designers.htm#page1
BEST FASHION DESIGNERS

http://www.mydearvalentine.com/top-10/chefs-in-the-world.html
BEST CHEFS

http://thecollegeinvestor.com/972/the-top-10-investors-of-all-time/
BEST INVESTORS

http://listverse.com/2010/12/07/top-10-greatest-mathematicians/
BEST MATHMATICIANS

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/2011/0817/Top-10-highest-paid-authors-of-2011/James-Patterson
HIGHEST PAID AUTHORS
(this is interesting, 3 women on the list, and one of them actually made the #2 spot! but, #1 is still a guy)

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/best-artists-of-all-time.htm
BEST? ARTISTS OF ALL TIME?
(this is highly debateable...but what isn't debateable.... it's ALL MEN!)

http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/top-ten-dancers-of-all-time.asp
this is kinda a silly one IMO...but, wow... still, 7 out of 10 "top dancers"??? Men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists
best selling musical artists of all time? almost EXCLUSIVELY men... only madonna has sold 300 milllion +... the other 14 300 million + albums sold? Ya... ALL MEN.

EVEN TOP "HUMANITARIANS" COMES UP PREDOMANENTLY OF MEN!
http://all-that-is-interesting.com/post/11230783415/the-seven-greatest-humanitarians-in-history

Etc... etc.. .etc....

Prove me wrong. I'd like to see it (honestly, I have no bias or belief that either gender is any more "capable" than the other)... but, when it comes to stuff like this... men absolutly hands down dominate the best of the best.
 
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I readily smack down any biatches who dare to challenge my reign as most repulsive poster on INFJsforum.

:mwaa:
 
I readily smack down any biatches who dare to challenge my reign as most repulsive poster on INFJsforum.

:mwaa:

Sorry. You are in the line of succession but I don't see you as king anytime soon....
 
I readily smack down any biatches who dare to challenge my reign as most repulsive poster on INFJsforum.

:mwaa:

I actually had a guy PM me earlier today telling me I should have more tact in my postings. not sure how this would be "weighted" exactly...but, he felt compelled! just that. something like "use more tact in your posts"

Jim, u ever get that? Stormy?
 
I readily smack down any biatches who dare to challenge my reign as most repulsive poster on INFJsforum.

:mwaa:

Consider yourself smacked down, bitch.
 
Jim, u ever get that? Stormy?
No you tacky person (I was gonna say bastard but that seemed tacky) I haven't. I did have someone say that I have assholitis though. I couldn't argue with that assessment because I have my moments.
 
No you tacky person (I was gonna say bastard but that seemed tacky) I haven't. I did have someone say that I have assholitis though. I couldn't argue with that assessment because I have my moments.

but did they PM it to you? lol. that's what got me.
 
No you tacky person (I was gonna say bastard but that seemed tacky) I haven't. I did have someone say that I have assholitis though. I couldn't argue with that assessment because I have my moments.

You have an inflamed asshole? Gross.
 
No!
th


Why do you ask?
 
Prove me wrong. I'd like to see it (honestly, I have no bias or belief that either gender is any more "capable" than the other)... but, when it comes to stuff like this... men absolutly hands down dominate the best of the best.

Gladly.

I was under the impression this was a conversation, not an asshole contest. If it is an asshole contest, I’m not interested. I can at least prove that those lists don't prove anything.

Those links prove nothing other than that someone made some top ten lists of people in certain professions that they like. There is little to no objectivity or measurability in most of them. They’re not even awards. I will tell you what I think of each one.

Any top ten fashion designer list that omits people like Coco Chanel and Elsa Schiaperelli is automatically suspect. It doesn’t specify how they measure these people’s success, whether it is by sales or number of shows or net revenue or influence or fame or what. It’s just a list.

Same with the chef one. Julia Child isn’t even on there, or Rachael Ray, or a number of amazing and influential female chefs, and it does not even mention how it measures success. Is it chefs with successful restaurants? Chefs with shows? Chefs who transformed the way we cook and entertain? Who knows. Just some chefs that whoever made the list likes.

The investor one is at least measureable and therefore most likely free of bias. I don’t have the faintest clue about the “greatest mathematicians” one — it just looks like a list and I don’t know any mathematicians or how to figure out if they are great or not, male or female.

But the author one? Well, it at least tells you how it measures success: based on earnings from May 2010 to April 2011. That time frame jus to happens to leave out the record holder for most books sold ever, Agatha Christie, but I am not sure of her earnings, that is a different number from number of books sold, but I am sure her earnings are astronomical. Or her estate’s earnings.

Top 10 Best Painters & Sculptors of All Time — totally subjective, and inherently biased against women, since “all time” includes the thousands of years there were no women painters or sculptors at all, partly due to the fact they were too busy dying in childbirth to paint or sculpt, and they were not allowed to be trained or educated as painters or sculptors.

Top Ten Best Dancers of All Time even admits it is not objective. It says: “Don't agree with the list? Vote for an existing item you think should be ranked higher or if you are a logged in, add a new item for others to vote on or create your own version of this list.” Fred Astaire is on there, Ginger Rogers? Not. Isadora Duncan? Absent. Martha Graham? Ignored.

Best selling musical artists? Well, kudos for measurability — sales — during what period of time I don’t see -- but how is Adele not on there? Did she not just win pretty much every award there is? And it also only talks about pop artists, from what I can tell.

And the humanitarian list, while admirable, leaves off pretty much everyone who ever fought for women’s rights. You know, to vote and stuff. But I suppose that is because feminism is not the same thing as humanitarianism and earns its promoters hatred rather than accolades. However, people like Mother Jones and several recent winners of the nobel peace prize should probably have been mentioned, since they fought for all human rights, not just the rights of half of humanity. (Nobel Peace Prize Winners 2011: Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Leymah Gbowee, Tawakkul Karman) But they weren’t.

So, all that list of top ten links proves is that internet lists have a bias toward males. It’s made me think there is much more misogyny in the world than I was aware of. And, it probably answers the OP’s question as to which state is more misogynistic than others — the answer is not a state, it’s the internet where misogynists like to gather these days, evidently.
 
Well, by your statement "completely sex based"... I agree. There are very, very few places that this would be the case. I'm just talking about radically different in terms of, say, the ways in which they prioritize the outcome of a conversation: Men in general tend to use conversation and discussion in the corporate environment to primarily share "tactical" information, and tend to do this in a more direct and "assertive" manner than women. Women tend to prioritize interpersonal cooperation more, so tactical information will be shared in a more suggestive and indirect manner than their male counterparts, and women will also discuss less "tactical" information more freely than men (again, in general). I believe this type of "tendency" of men to place an inherent higher value on "hard data", and discuss it in a manner that clearly indicates a "lower context" form of communication. Women on the other hand will choose words that are more "cooperative" and "agreeable" in the very nature of their communication.

Women will more frequently use phrases such as "I may not have explained this as carefully as I should have" when in a situation that requires them to re-direct the actions of fellow employees who are doing a task incorrectly. Men will do this too! HOWEVER... they do it MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY if talking to a SUPERIOR... if talking to a subordinate, men will more often speak very directly, like "I have explained this already, is there something you needed to know in order to get it going properly?"
But WOMEN... in this case, will use the same type of "cooperative phrasing" regardless of talking to a superior or a subordinate. This is cross cultural, and in fact research shows that word choice in fact helps provide insight into some very different, somewhat primal "core values" that men and women in fact differ from one another fairly significantly.
The reason why it is cross cultural is because women have been, due to history in most places, seen as the weaker sex and have an expectation to not be too forward. Otherwise they get named a bitch. With that being said, the whole "direct" manner of conversation is not universal. African women warrior tribes have the exact opposite mentality to how the sexes are supposed to go about their business. I have also observed that things are changing because societal expectations are changing: What it means to be a man or a woman is kind of in flux right now due to all the radical left wings notions of gender equality.
I tend to find that
Also, women tend to determine the relative value of an interaction more as a function of what was revealed or shared, whereas men actively seek a "resolution", or "answer". Some studies have shown that this is in fact very much so a "hard wired" difference between men and women. I might look up some references for this post at a later date.

Please do if you have time. It seems that all the evidence being published now is pointing to the fact that man and women are more similar than any two people. Or, to make clearer, people are complex, but the differences that people perceive aren't because of sex.

Yes, I do agree these points are valid, but I contend that they fail in explaining why in ANY area of study that I can think of, the top 5 individuals are so disproportionately male. (i'm also not even considering areas where it is exclusively a male or female arena, or athletics of any sort) I'll admit i'm not thinking very hard about it... but, feel free to suggest an academic, artistic, vocational, or avocational arena in which the top 5 individuals are predominately women. Anywhere, of any sort, now, or in the past. I find it quite shocking myself that I can't think of even one field where this is the case...but, again, i'm not thinking very hard, and would love to be proven wrong here.

Your question reveals the answer. Why is it that in no segment of society that the top 5 individuals are not women? I feel that it's not because they're lazy or lack drive, it would appear that men just garner more respect for doing the same amount of work. Women were the last group in the U.S. to get the right to vote. Blacks got the right to vote before women did. That seems to be a systematic dismissal of women in my opinion. Then we would feed them notions about the republican motherhood to placate them. Doesn't it seem odd that white men just tend to have all the accolades? All the money? All the endowments? I just have to disagree with you, I think that history shows a great reason that women still deal with sexism when it comes to success.

I've seen some "pop science" articles on just this... but, i've never looked at the data with a very discriminating eye. I've seen anecdotal evidence to such a large degree that I may have overlooked this. I'll consider it some time, but feel free to link an article or something you recommend.



Well, it may not be AS anecdotal as you may think... but i'll be the first to admit i am choosing from "well suited" examples from studies i've come across over the past 15ish years. Some were extremely well conducted, and in fact broke ground in gender "studies". And others i'm sure were more "suspect". But a lot is from memory, and there is some anecdotal stuff as well.



Agree overall again. Nothing I said in fact is in opposition to any of this. I really just was seeking to make a point that there is a proclivity for men to be more overtly competitive, risk taking, and single minded than women (on the whole). Yes, some women have these traits as well, and they are the ones that occupy one or two of the "top 5" positions in any field/vocation/whatever. It's just most women don't share this to the extent that men do, on the level anyway. And I don't believe this is a "cultural phenomena". Men simply don't have "biological clocks" they way many women do. Men have more of a psychological need to be "better" than others at something that offers distinct and clear boundaries on what "better" means. Women tend to be "better" at things that don't have such clearly defined boundaries. What makes a "better" caregiver? How would you score who is the "best at nurturing creativity in the workplace?" or how about who's the winner at "getting what they want while maintaining high levels of diplomacy and cooperation at all times."

You see, these are actually really powerful and really valueable skills that women tend to have a natural proclivity for, and men tend to struggle more.

it's just they don't lend themselves to being "ranked" or "scored" as clearly or easily. Why? because women intrinsically place less value on such "scoring" But men don't.... and this makes a big difference as to what arenas men and women prefer to wok at, and are best suited to excel at, and maybe even more importantly... how "visable" those areas are to the rest of the world.

-E
Science is constantly rebuilding on itself. I'm not discrediting your sources or how you sourced them as inaccurate but I believe that more data has surfaced showing different realities. What do you mean by biological clocks? Does that not refer to the Circadian rhythm? Or do you mean the drive to have a baby? Which not all women have. Or do you mean the period and hormone fluctuation? Men have that too with Testosterone. Men have been taught that they need to be better and you can see this expression in various societies to different degrees. Also, describing women as better at non-clearly defined things seems a bit ambiguous. I think that the opposite shows more. Men who don't care about scoring used to be weak. Women who care about scoring are bitches who don't want nor need a man.

Rubinstein, J.S., Meyer D.E., & Evans, J.E. (2001). Executive control of cognitive processes in task switching. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance, 27(4), 763-797.


Shellenbarger, S. (2003, February 28). Juggling too many tasks could make you stupid. Career Journal, Retrieved January 31, 2006, from http://www.careerjournal.com/columnists/workfamily/20030228-workfamily.html.
 
Unfortunately, my mom attracts them like a magnet, so I know all too well that they exist today. They wait for a weak minded woman who sends off desperate signals, and then they pursue her relentlessly. They take advantage of her gullibility, telling her all sorts of far-fetched lies so she won't leave even when they treat her like crap.

It scares me how many men like this there apparently are. I can't go out in public with my mom without all kinds of men hitting on her, and I've come to distrust any man that approaches her because of past precedent, and because anyone who would be attracted to such a weak woman only wants to take advantage of her.
Is that really misogyny, though? Or just people being predatory? Those same men probably take advantage of other men who display vulnerability, just in slightly different ways..
 
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Gladly.

I was under the impression this was a conversation, not an asshole contest. If it is an asshole contest, I’m not interested.

Obviously the tone I wished to convey was lost in translation, I was indirectly pointing out that your list of female dominated industries had nothing to do with the very specific point I was making. It was neither an insult, nor meant personally. I'll assume that it won't be taken in that light from here on out.

As far as the lists go... some are highly subjective as you've pointed out... and I didn't contest that they arn't. However, you are incorrectly "mass grouping" them.

The fashion designers list was not arbitrary, but I believe it was determined based on sales numbers of high fashion designers for 2010 (or was it 2011...one or the other). So... in terms of "haute coture'" - these guys make the styles that brought in the most sales for 2010 around the world. You may want to use a DIFFERENT yardstick... but the yardstick used in fact is highly objective, not subjective.

Also, the "best investors" meets this criteria as well... it is based on long term annual ROI's for institutional sized money managers, hedge funders, and stock pickers. So ya, this is objective, but you and I already agree on this one here.

And highest paid authors for 2011 is... well, highest paid! again, a very objective yardstick. One could choose a different yardstick... and in fact, you mentioned best selling of all time, and I decided that indeed that would be a MUCH BETTER yardstick than just googling "best authors"...but when I did so, I discovered your example of Christie being the best seller of all time is only partially correct. She shares that honor with Shakespere. and 7 of the top 10 are also men. But, kudos for finding one catagory where the top woman does indeed rival the top man. Here's the link to that wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_fiction_authors

As far as mathematics goes... this has been a field that has lent itself towards gender bias... but, is a HIGHLY meritocratic field, so I felt it would be relevent to include. If a person comes up with a theorem, or proves one wrong, well...that speaks for itself, it's math after all. There really isn't any way to measure what insights are "better" than others...but, if we went by fields medal awards which is given once every 4 years to those who have made the greatest contributions over that time in mathematics...and has only been around since the 1930's (so, although still heavily gender biased...the 1900's is the "most" gender blind century so far...) Of all the great awards in mathematics, a woman has never yet won. ever. And in fact, based on scores from the world wide math olympiad.... there ARE occassionally a few women who score perfect... like, 1 or 2... compared to 10-20+ men competing in those same years. here's a link with more than i've mentioned here:

http://blog.tanyakhovanova.com/?p=125

Clearly, men have the upper hand here. and I just can't attribute it all to a gender bias. Some, absolutely! most? quite possibly.... but... the numbers are STAGGERINGLY tilted towards men in math... and that seems to be the case any way you slice it... greatest of alll time? Newton. Fields medals? all men. other top awards? all men. math competitions? 80%+ champs are men.

Best selling musical artists of all time is also objective as you did acknowledge. As far as "Adele" goes.... she may indeed be great, but she has not sold 300 MILLION albums world wide over the course of her career. That was the criteria. And also a very objective criteria at that.... possibly the most of any we've discussed.

The artists, i'll give you that. but, it doesn't prove women are the top, I just concede it is not a measureable catagory, due to historical biases, and lack of any real "yardstick" that I would be comfortable with. Maybe recognition...but then, the mona lisa would win. Bottom line, this catagory cannot hold up and support either gender, it is disqualifed.

I'm also gonna thwo the humanitarian one here as well. it's just too hard to find any "objective yardstick" by which to measure. Though, you did mention womens right... and that is a very important and relevent aspect of the humanitarian struggle in history...it is just one specific "slice" of humanitarian crusades. But really, we have to throw this out. it' just can't be measured objectively (although, i'm open to suggestion)

As far as the "chef's" go... it is a list of Michelin star winning chef. The michelin star award is the most prestigious award a restaurant can win. Winning 1 star basically ensures you to become a destination within a metro area. 2 stars? your among the best in the your country, and 3 stars? the best in the world. Here's a link that goes into more detail about how this system works, and the criteria that the judges must meet, as well as the proceedure they must follow, to determine what restuarant and chef gets a star:

http://www.independent.co.uk/extras...rs-ndash-and-do-they-still-matter-773848.html

Of, if you prefer, we could go by the winners of the "Bocuse d'Or" which is considered the olympics of the culinary world. So far... 1 women, and all the rest of the winners have been men. Here's more on that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bocuse_d'Or



The dancers was a joke. interesting, but not serious.

So, to recap:

Here is what I listed that can be measured with a large degree of objectivity, either by a single metric such as publications, or career spanning record sales. Others, like mathematics, the weighting is just too heavy on the mens side by ANY standard of measure one wishes to use.

The new list:

fashion designers - men
chefs - men
investors - men
mathmaticians -men
authors - more heavily men, but really more objectively this is a "shared" catagory between men and women. The closest we've seen to equal, nevermind women in the lead.
musical artists - men

artists and sculptors - not measureable, disqualified
dancers - not measureable, disqualified
humanitarians - not measureable, disqualified.

I can at least prove that those lists don't prove anything.

First of all the "absence of proof is by no means proof". Although your critique of some aspects of my post were well made, you still failed to show me a single catagory where we can have some level of objectivity to determine the "top of the field". So, i'm still waiting for that proof...

Also, It seems that of those catagories I listed that CAN be measured by some degree of objectivity... men very clearly are the top performers more often than not.

If anything, our conversation here only has supported my hypothesis that the top of the top in most any vocation/avocation is dominated by men. Of course there are women contributors, and some are paragons of their realm... however, it's not even remotely close to a 50/50 distribution. It's more on the order of 75%-80% men...with men holding the top place in nearly every single field.

On a personal note... I only feel the way I do about this because several years ago I was on the other side of the argument. I was challenged to look at a wide variety of vocational/avocational areas, and determine in some "acceptable, measureable" manner to prove that women rise to the highest levels in many fields just as men do.

I actually bet that I could prove them wrong. 5 bucks if i remember. I lost.

it was somewhat jarring to me... I've always held that outside of physical prowess, men and women in highly meritocratic fields would have about equal distribution at the very top. Not corporate america glass ceiling BS, but, things like published authors, musicians, various creative endeavors, "trail blazers", scientists, etc...

Well, it turns out I was wrong. It's not even at all. Men hold the top spots in such arenas in nearly every case.

Women make great contributions, and some DO get "top honors", but for every 1 woman, there are 3 or 4 men who get it as well.

Again...prove me wrong. I was more comfortable with my previous paradigm, and I would like to revert back to it if I can find justification to do so. But so far, I haven't found such.

-E