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Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by enfp can be shy, Jan 4, 2010.

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  1. enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    Isn't it true that we live in a war-based "civilization"? The importance of almost every discovery is measured by its application for the army; I haven't found a major research facility yet, which doesn't rely on some form of military funding.

    Why the hell is all that needed? Who're we gonna fight now, the aliens?

    I am not motivated by culture that is ready to take away anything you invent and use it to kill and torture other people. Won't we be able to change this in our lifetime?
     
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  2. Reon

    Reon Midnight's Garden

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    More or less, most of the inventions we now see are/were based on military investments. For example, high ways in the U.S. were made so that, in case of attack, the army could afford to move around the nation fairly effectively. Another thing is the internet which, to my knowledge, was popularized by DARPA (I may be wrong, and there isn't one consensus on who 'invented' it. Just who helped make it.) I also know that the U.S. has a war time economy that we have never totally shifted out of.

    When it comes to research facilities, the companies really need the money to function and that money has to come through the government typically, and defense is very important to a nation. This includes having the latest weapons and such which need to be constantly developed, manufactured, and tested. I wouldn't suspect that a major amount of the items produced at such said research facility go directly into killing other human beings (Unless you work for a weapon R & D place but then that's obvious) and the results of militarized projects aren't always bad, as can be seen by the two cases above.

    You can't fix this problem until we have some semblance of peace, otherwise what's the point of NOT making weapons when someone who is vying to destroy your nation is making bigger and better weapons all the time. Why do we fight now? It used to be the three G's: God, Glory, and gold. Now only the last two apply, glory and gold (Money and land)

    With that being said, I don't think many of our 'inventions' are given importance based on their military value. Some things are purely industrial/civil and are just endorsed by the military because they have the money to do so, remember, they're human too.

    OOC: Kinda off topic in places >.>
     
  3. MindYourHead

    MindYourHead Courage doesn't always roar.

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    President Eisenhower warned us of what would happen if we let the military industrial complex go unchecked.
    Wars and conflict are needed by the defense industry to survive.
    They will see to it that there is always conflict somewhere.

    From President Eisenhower's farewell speech, January 17, 1961.

    "A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction... This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence
     
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  4. Faye

    Faye ^_^
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    Yes, we are an imperialist nation and have been since the beginning. That isn't going to change anytime soon.
     
  5. bamf

    bamf Is Watching You
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  6. Reon

    Reon Midnight's Garden

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    I think ENFP was talking about the world at large, seeing as she lives in Europe according to her profile.
     
  7. OP
    enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    "She" is a straight he. :) Yeah, I was talking about the world at large. If someone meant USA (or any other concrete country) by calling it "imperialist", mmm that sounds like rather outdated kind of rhetoric to me, because USA (or any other country) are just victims of power-interests. /which are driven by nothing, except scared minds who scare others/

    I want to see no military left worldwide; in my lifetime. That would be a good day to live to see. And please don't start talkin about friggin aliens .. xD
     
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  8. Crow

    Banned

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    On the other hand, imagine how silly we would feel, having beaten our swords into ploughshares, twenty two minutes before a huge well-armed force descends upon us, hyped up to do battle.
    And how dead we all might be, as a result.
    The sad truth is: not everybody wants peace.

    I think the only viable way of working for peace is to become peaceful.
    Person by person, a bit at a time.
    Not weak. Not defenseless.
    Just peaceful.
     
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  9. OP
    enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    By the way, as a little boy, I really enjoyed playing with guns and all kinds of equipment to "take over the world", from swords and sticks to real rifles and artillery (I had access to such real "toys"). I even made some of my own, I was very dedicated. But I only did it, because it was fun, and if something else has been at my disposal as more fun, I would have done that. My point is, we only teach this; it's not that you have it in your genes - like some peaceful natives demonstrate.

    Of course, if you teach me killing from little kid, I could learn killing, but that doesn't mean I couldn't learn something more useful instead, if killing wasn't everywhere around me.
     
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  10. Afrelen

    Afrelen Community Member

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    Lament that it is not so.
    But do not forget that it is so.

    In the words of Ecclesiastes: "There is nothing new under the sun" and trying to fix it is "vanity and chasing after wind."
     
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  11. dneecey

    dneecey I am who I am.

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    A quote from one of my favorite books. :D If only I could give you reputation. :hug: to Afrelen.
     
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  12. OP
    enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    (as much i love Ecclesiastes; my fav part is about the wish for nobody to have been born ... but things are improving... slowly... some steps backwards, some forwards, slowly getting a little better in the end... no? even as barbaric as humans still are, they got a little more cultured on average than the average of the ancient times... we used to all be soldiers... now only some of us ... someday - nobody)
     
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    #12 enfp can be shy, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  13. Afrelen

    Afrelen Community Member

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    Such is the lie we tell ourselves. Nothing changed. We still have the same problems. You only think we were all soldiers once. Nobody has become enlightened, nobody ever will. Especially on their own. By ourselves all our activities can bear no fruit. Even if there were no soldiers, you've only treated the symptoms of the illness at hand, not the illness itself. The problem is not that there is war or that there are soldiers. The problem is man, that is why Solomon writes that he wishes none of us were ever born then immediately afterward writes that it, too, is vanity.
     
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  14. OP
    enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    Oh, I'm not blind that the average world situation has nothing to do with what people like us get the comfort to be exposed to. But still, I think the amount of cannibalism, sacrifice, such very primitive things, is decreasing during the ages. So it's possible, we are not really so static.

    They compare us with animals, and we are animals - that's what proves it works. It works for animals too. An animal can be violent, can "mark" streets and buildings, but also can be taught out of that. I think the Bible reflects times of too much judgement, which was the result of too little understanding. It was humanistic back then, but is not anymore, due to updated research of what humans (and other mammals) are able to do.

    I think having no army someday, is a realistic goal. It won't solve the human problems, but some of them, at least. Bono here gets it:

    where's the glory in that?
    [YOUTUBE]88uVqHiAFD8[/YOUTUBE]
     
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  15. Afrelen

    Afrelen Community Member

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    My point is, that it solves no problems. We aren't getting better and it's only too much judgment because it judges you, and you think you don't deserve. News is, you do, we all do. The point of Ecclesiastes on the whole is that none of us are capable of overcoming this, nor are all of us doing it together. Pacifism solves no problems, it tells us to ignore them. Even if we were all to lay down arms and get together and be friendly, we'd still be the rebellious human beings we are.

    PS: You can still hope for it. I've been too dark for any of our own good, but we do have to come to terms with the fact that militaries are not the real problem. Take them away and nothing will change. If that gives you hope that they can be, go for it, but all wisdom says that you've solved nothing.
     
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    #15 Afrelen, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  16. ec3khrl

    ec3khrl Community Member

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    That's the original sin.
     
  17. just me

    just me GONE

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    Reality and the ideals meet once in awhile. After a good spot of tea, they go about their own ways once again. Each has its place and neither can lay claim to being the stronger of the two. We can become somewhat blind to one or the other when we focus on one more than the other.
    New galaxies(to us) are appearing in front of our eyes from technologies
    used in wartime. Plillippians 4:8 has some great advice.
     
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  18. OP
    enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    Oh, I don't imagine that the removal of weapons, magically, all over the world, right now, would directly solve any problems. It may even cause mass chaos and destruction. But a gradual change towards this goal, I think is possible, and it's practically happening, compared with past times - fewer people remain involved with military.

    Why? :(

    Why? :(

    True, but 1) there are other ways to motivate such inventions 2) do we really need it so much, before we work out the human/planetary problems. In the end it seems more like an attempt to escape from harsh reality; like useless narcissism (mine is bigger than yours), than a truly useful technology.
     
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