MGTOW, MRM, MRA mens rights, what gives?

Billy

Billy

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Looks I know we as men get fucked in any courtroom, especially a family court, and I agree Marriage is irrelevant and in a mans bad interest... but what gives with this mens rights movement?

On a personal level, I cannot relate. Some of the stuff they say is scandalous and I am all like "wow its like that?" I have seen where men get screwed in court or alimony etc, but where else? A lot of this MRA stuff seems like beta male whining. "I'm opting out!" Opting out of what? Marriage? Yeah, buddy, most of us are. Some of the stuff they being up seems absurd to me, especially when they talk about keeping "the movement pure" thats another way of saying, no girls in the clubhouse... I HATE this mentality. Because it just seems like reverse feminazism.

Are there any MRAs here who can explain?

For those of you who dont know, check out "MRA, MRM, Mens rights" etc on youtube. What a bunch of belly aching.
 
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Isn't your attitude exactly what they are fighting against? Writing off men as weak because they speak out against an injustice? The answer is yes.
 
the site manboobz.net showcases some of the more ridiculous and extreme examples of this movement.

[h=2][/h]
 
What is the actual problem?

I mean, sure, there are nutters in every movement and they usually shout the loudest.

But shitty things happen just to men all the time. National Service is still a thing in a lot of places. Right now there isn't a war big enough to make this a big deal. It's not that long a term of service and there are usually alternatives to military training/service. But conscription isn't necessarily gone forever, nor will the problem of consciencious objectors if it ever needs to be reintroduced.

The divorce things are mad. Each case is different. Sometimes the man is wrong, sometimes the woman is. That's just got to be based on facts because people go so crazy in those cases due to how huge it is to them that it's not really an issue of gender. People should be made to have some therapy before divorce proceedings go through - especially if it's been a long marriage and there are kids involved. To say it is 'Men being picked on' is just a bad platform...even if in some cases it is true.
 
The MRA would attract misogynists of course. They will be the ones that would make statements like "keep the movement pure"

that would be a good way to discern a victim or pure supporter from someone that hates women.
 
and I lol @ the ones that say they're opting out and make a big show of it

Yeah, take that...ME. Guess that's one less douche I have to worry about marrying? Wow, you really got me. Looks like I'm really missing out.
 
is there a chapter devoted to preserving our bodily essence ?
 
I think the demanding of mens rights thing is a little dramatic and extra but lol [MENTION=731]UBERROGO[/MENTION] brings up a good point
 
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I have no argument that men's rights folks in general are exactly the same as feminists in that they have so much veiled angry and bitterness that their movement is of little or no worth. Because the extremists in the movement keep the moderate members speak their mind and the extremist also tend to also indoctrinate causal new members into extremest who have no base understanding in a movement. So what I'm saying while both the gender movements have good points they are eclipsed by their sour feelings

. As for the mens movement that they got right, that needs to change. Men are being treated unfairly in divorce court. Are often ex

pect to give beyond their financial means through Alimony , child support ecete. Also many making women fee unconformable is grounds for a restraining order. men are often kept from their children Men suffer without being heard. As we see in this thread men are all assumed to have privilege even if they don't. In the modern culture men are not able to feel poorly or they are called names or simply ignored as the privileged oppressor.

The problem of the pay gap is overstated, the pay gap ignores choice of dangerous jobs, possibly job hour difference ecete Bad boy and jerk behavior have been cultivated by women being so picky that men have to ride a fine line between aggressive and not creepy , that some won't cross, sometimes refereed to as, hypermonogamy. Women still want to marry up or at an equal level and this becoming more problematic.

Women are becoming more masculine, that men and women are competing for the same roles instead of working together to find roles for both. They understand that men watching more porn, not getting married and having fun and forsaking traditional adulthood is a symptom of the lack of roles for men. Not a cause or problem itself. Marriage has no benefit for men. And men find themselves increasing lack any role at all in society. Men are portrayed in media as atavist in nature. As idiots who either, beat others, are stupid or overall incompetent.

This is a good example of ad that didn't turns heads but was extremely offensive. Where the roles reversed in some ways I'm sure women would have it pulled ASAP.

[youtube]U6krr40mdHM[/youtube]

Things that the mens movement gets wrong The idea that the nuclear family is the solution they ignore the 50's and before consisted of both parents working their asses off. The husband working their self into the ground to provide for their family, the wife having to run the house hold and raise the children. Leaving both well with little ways outside their role. I personally think an extended family model (many generations living together would make more sense)

The heavy handed religious overtones, just as feminist bastardized Karl Marx (which is insult to his work) so do the mens rights folks overuse religion as the back bone of their movement. The

mens movement pushes the idea of either a dominate or submissive role. They ignore that also as two people aren't fighting for the same role they shouldn't be a problem. To be equal but accept differences is a better approach.

In the end both the feminist movement and mens movement have to much bad emotions behind them. Further they both ignore the human issue beneath the gender and by support one gender over the other they marginalize the other. But I won't blame any man for checking out. For saying fuck it. I'm not getting married, I'm not having kids. I'm going to work in a job, I like, either not have sex, have only one night stands for find love abroad ecte. Because I've seen so many times men being told they can't experience oppression or even simple trouble. Men are called pussies for being emotional or an assholes when he shuts down. Women have pushed men to a state of none role in the US. And frankly I think many man are tired of being treated poorly and having no role in society.
 
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Both of these movements are dumb and self-serving, but feminism is often responsible for painting males as privileged oppressors and the antagonists of human history, so it's only natural that men have started forming their own groups.

What we need is a general 'changing gender roles' sort of movement that doesn't polarize the issues or pit one gender against the other, and actively seeks an objective sense of what both men and women are capable of and entitled to in modern society.
 
Apone said:
Both of these movements are dumb and self-serving, but feminism is often responsible for painting males as privileged oppressors and the antagonists of human history, so it's only natural that men have started forming their own groups.

What we need is a general 'changing gender roles' sort of movement that doesn't polarize the issues or pit one gender against the other, and actively seeks an objective sense of what both men and women are capable of and entitled to in modern society.
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Yup pretty much.
 
MRA would seem to be essentially an anti-extreme-feminist movement - without actually naming itself as such.

As such I agree with them - extreme feminists are haters and should not be tolerated, or given any more sway than any other bigoted group.
 
It is the equivalent of white people demanding their rights from minorities (at least here is the US--and those fools are called Klansmen.)
Thats how absurd this Men's Rights thing is to me..
 
Flavus Aquila said:
MRA would seem to be essentially an anti-extreme-feminist movement - without actually naming itself as such.

As such I agree with them - extreme feminists are haters and should not be tolerated, or given any more sway than any other bigoted group.
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But isn't everyone anti "extreme" everything? The "extreme" part suggests it has gone too far.

It's like the EDL being "anti extremist Islam"...well yeah...so are all the other Muslims and everyone else. They're extreme.
 
concerns about this movement:

1. Its a seductive line of reasoning, being a victim... being morally right. It feels real... its just that most of the stuff these guys talk about seems like its not real.

2. How do you explain all the women who AREN'T feminists, who aren't into social climbing? Its strange, I try to keep an open mind, I look for the things these guys are talking about and all I seem to come across as "exceptions to the rule"...

seriously... I have only met a VERY few women who could be described as "the rule" the rest were exceptions to the rules.

3. There is a LOT of nice-guy misogyny in these movements. Now seriously, I despise the so called "nice guy" Every guy I know who is labeled a "nice guy" is actually a doormat. Has no balls what so ever. I know there is this like teen angst-y image of nice guys just being these kind, caring dudes who want to love you with no benefit to themselves, but the truth is this. Everybody has needs, nice guys just have no game, so their method for getting vajayjay is to be what they think is "nice"

Now once and a while a girl will get drunk and desperate and fuck her "nice guy" buddy who like gravity has been weighing her down and trying to suck her in for probably months or years. Notice nice guys hardly ever last YEARS, more proof of their supposed benevolence. If you were being kind and caring for kind and caring sake, there is no TIME LIMIT on it, it doesn't just end, when you are discouraged.

4.Yes divorce and family courts RAPE men... this is an issue that can probably be tackled without a named movement... And NO it wast women who made it happen. It was MEN.
Women and children 1st, and male disposability... lets be honest. We are evolutionary bound to protecting women and children ahead of our own lives as men, it makes sense in a survival notion. Women didn't just usurp the throngs of power in that area, it was hoisted upon them.

5. Chivalry, and the old roles are dead. Can we just face the facts here? We do not live in what I would call "a survival era" where much of the struggles of our lives was just making it to the next day. We live in an age of intellect and abundance, we should really make the right plans to capitalize on that, not just spend it all away on modern living things like Starbucks or macbooks.

6. An overabundance of ugly, short, fat hairy guys in the MGTOW MRM groups... seriously. You can tell some things by looking at the face of its people. If there is an overabundance of jaded nice guys who have no game, they join the MRM, if they are good looking and have game, they join the PUA community.

As always life is divided between winners and losers. The losers of course being the MRM.

I listened to some guy on YouTube crying about how many abuse shelters there are for women, but none of them take men. Its like... bro... if you're getting you ass kicked at home by a woman you should just digest a lead salad. I had a girlfriend try to smack me once out of anger, I grabbed her wrists and wouldn't let go, until she stopped... at no point did I feel the need to run away to a shelter. Besides if I did, my moms house would suffice. Whats the problem?

7. MGTOW types always over-shoot everything. It cant just be an imbalanced equation, its WOMEN MAKING MATRIARCHY A REALITY! its MEN ARE BEING SWALLOWED BY FEMINISM!

Don't get me wrong, I despise feminism just as much since feminism is just a group of women doing the same shit these men are doing, feminism is like a dying old aunt that keeps living on and annoying people and spreading negativity. When they shouted down the cotton seed extract guy who was inventing male pill birth control, and the feminazis were there protesting? That's bullshit. Be that as it may, I see no reason to lump ALL women into this group of batshit insane feminists.

A lot of this gender war stuff seems to come from 2 places:

1. nice guys scorned and bitter
2. Nice girls scorned and bitter.

Anyway, as a modern male I have read up on this movement, listened to some audio and watched some videos. And what I see is that yes, while there are a few things in society that can and SHOULD be fixed, like how men are treated by the law vs women, that is not enough to build a movement on. A cause maybe but not a movement. Especially if the movement is going to be mostly uggo dudes with troglodytism who just want to get together and talk about how much they really hate women and how "unfair" life is for them. I have no time to deal with that kind of bullshit.

Anyone with game doesn't seem to be a part of this trap. Hot girls get what they want, and hot dudes get what they want and the whiners are left complaining.
 
acd said:
It is the equivalent of white people demanding their rights from minorities (at least here is the US--and those fools are called Klansmen.)
Thats how absurd this Men's Rights thing is to me..
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Essentially I believe the overall movement to be this.

At this point the community is either:
a) 15% real issue affecting people (divorce and its effects to men seems to be the main weapon here), 85% anti-feminism or trying to reverse what feminism had been made.
b) 10% real debate / effort, 50% self-victimizing (circle jerks?), 40% WHINING.

Billy said:
concerns about this movement:

1. Its a seductive line of reasoning, being a victim... being morally right. It feels real... its just that most of the stuff these guys talk about seems like its not real.
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I've seen one arguing that "MEN SUFFERS TOO! I DON'T GET LAID! STOP TORTURING MEN WITH YOUR FEMINAZI AGENDAS". In a topic about rape. OI.
And that is really fucked up.
Oh, I won't lie, feminism sometimes crossed some lines; they can be obnoxious and harming; but the issues they are handling? They are much more real, much more substantial. (in percentage of its members, I would say 85% solving and rallying against issues that are harming womenkind as a whole, vs 15% trying to paint MEN as the oppressor)

And I feel aside of the vitriol, a lot of the MRM's intention feels like to essentially reverse the things feminism had changed.
2. How do you explain all the women who AREN'T feminists, who aren't into social climbing? Its strange, I try to keep an open mind, I look for the things these guys are talking about and all I seem to come across as "exceptions to the rule"...

seriously... I have only met a VERY few women who could be described as "the rule" the rest were exceptions to the rules.

3. There is a LOT of nice-guy misogyny in these movements. Now seriously, I despise the so called "nice guy" Every guy I know who is labeled a "nice guy" is actually a doormat. Has no balls what so ever. I know there is this like teen angst-y image of nice guys just being these kind, caring dudes who want to love you with no benefit to themselves, but the truth is this. Everybody has needs, nice guys just have no game, so their method for getting vajayjay is to be what they think is "nice"

Now once and a while a girl will get drunk and desperate and fuck her "nice guy" buddy who like gravity has been weighing her down and trying to suck her in for probably months or years. Notice nice guys hardly ever last YEARS, more proof of their supposed benevolence. If you were being kind and caring for kind and caring sake, there is no TIME LIMIT on it, it doesn't just end, when you are discouraged.
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No comment, aside from yes; I think these are true. They are painting all womenkind in a specific set of images (it's either the frigid stone cold feminazi bitch or the manipulative slut who wouldn't appreciate their niceness, for instance) based on certain qualities (they don't want to settle with me! They are offended with my jokes! They are stringing me along!) And that ticks off a lot of women, who may or may not have that certain flaw, but certainly is complex enough to not be one of those 'types'.
4.Yes divorce and family courts RAPE men... this is an issue that can probably be tackled without a named movement... And NO it wast women who made it happen. It was MEN.
Women and children 1st, and male disposability... lets be honest. We are evolutionary bound to protecting women and children ahead of our own lives as men, it makes sense in a survival notion. Women didn't just usurp the throngs of power in that area, it was hoisted upon them.
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This is an argument that feminist essentially also made. Patriarchy...or at least centuries of creating a 'difference' between men and women has made some certain circumstances, both political, social, or cultural, that also affects men in a negative way.

It is strange that for those people it seems that the solution is to return to the previous status quo, rather than trying to move forward. It's rather....conservative of them.

5. Chivalry, and the old roles are dead. Can we just face the facts here? We do not live in what I would call "a survival era" where much of the struggles of our lives was just making it to the next day. We live in an age of intellect and abundance, we should really make the right plans to capitalize on that, not just spend it all away on modern living things like Starbucks or macbooks.
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I don't really get what are the old roles.
6. An overabundance of ugly, short, fat hairy guys in the MGTOW MRM groups... seriously. You can tell some things by looking at the face of its people. If there is an overabundance of jaded nice guys who have no game, they join the MRM, if they are good looking and have game, they join the PUA community.

As always life is divided between winners and losers. The losers of course being the MRM.

I listened to some guy on YouTube crying about how many abuse shelters there are for women, but none of them take men. Its like... bro... if you're getting you ass kicked at home by a woman you should just digest a lead salad. I had a girlfriend try to smack me once out of anger, I grabbed her wrists and wouldn't let go, until she stopped... at no point did I feel the need to run away to a shelter. Besides if I did, my moms house would suffice. Whats the problem?
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Well, @Billy , not all guys are as strong/firm as you... It's not exactly a stereotype either. :D
Besides, you still have your self confidence. That's a huge difference right there, sir. Self confidence are the first thing that abusers will cut down from its victims; male or female.
But I do get your sentiment, and I'll say eh, we don't exactly know their circumstances as well.

And the earlier point...that's interesting. I feel like there is some similarities between the PUA / Ladder Theory followers and the MRM followers. But I -don't- exactly see the picture of the members. Is it possible that the source inbetween the two are the same; perhaps, in a neutral term, a perceived sense of injustice coming from womenkind whether in social or romantic or political realm?
7. MGTOW types always over-shoot everything. It cant just be an imbalanced equation, its WOMEN MAKING MATRIARCHY A REALITY! its MEN ARE BEING SWALLOWED BY FEMINISM!

Don't get me wrong, I despise feminism just as much since feminism is just a group of women doing the same shit these men are doing, feminism is like a dying old aunt that keeps living on and annoying people and spreading negativity. When they shouted down the cotton seed extract guy who was inventing male pill birth control, and the feminazis were there protesting? That's bullshit. Be that as it may, I see no reason to lump ALL women into this group of batshit insane feminists.
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Yeah; there's also a sense of black and white morality. And all feminists aim for one thing according to them...which cannot be any wronger.
A lot of this gender war stuff seems to come from 2 places:

1. nice guys scorned and bitter
2. Nice girls scorned and bitter.
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Granted, I think feminism -is- an old movement with tons of history and changes as time goes on. And again, they have (more (real, substantial, plenty) actual causes to fight on). And a lot of feminist aren't 'nice' in the traditional sense, AFAIK. To lump them together in 'nice' and 'bitterness' would be a lot unfair, methinks *poke*

I do think a lot of these are an issue of privilege; the ones with privilege are slowly losing their grasp, and they aren't happy.
Anyone with game doesn't seem to be a part of this trap. Hot girls get what they want, and hot dudes get what they want and the whiners are left complaining.
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Not particularly for girls, I think?
There are -still- stigmas about hot (confident, smart, independent, yada yada) girls; want too much sex, they are sluts. Aim too high in career, they are stone cold bitches. Have a family, they are empty Stepfordian dolls with no ambition of their own.
They do have it easier than less attractive ones; but I won't say they have it 'easy' either.

now hot dudes?
 
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