Marriage and Divorce | INFJ Forum

Marriage and Divorce

Apone

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Jan 19, 2012
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I know this isn't necessarily the norm, but aside from the legal benefits/tax implications, I have a really hard time understanding why anyone would want to get married, especially since so many marriages seem to end in divorce. I guess that there are people who get pressured into it and such (which is also bad), but for the people who choose to enter it and then eventually realize that it was a mistake/can't work out their problems… it just seems like they shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Then again, I've never been married so I'm actually curious about what people think-- why single people want to get married and why married people got married (which is probably going to involve love), and also why divorced people got divorced, if you're okay talking about it.
 
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From what I have seen many people get married simply for the fact that they think thats what they are supposed to do. Its sad really.
 
I think lifestyles, gender roles, and perceptions of marriage have changed but society adheres to old beliefs of marriage. This leaves a lot of people feeling disillusioned, floundering, and having to carve a new concept of marriage for themselves. A lot of people are taught the old beliefs of marriage and then can't understand why they can't make that work in a society that is hundreds of years past when the old beliefs of marriage came about. The old beliefs work for some people, but they don't work for everybody. So today you see people making all kinds of different choices about marriage, within marriages, etc. I think you have a legitimate question and will probably get a multitude of different answers because today everyones beliefs about marriage are different. There is no one way to look at marriage that works for everyone. No one size fits all. At least not anymore. Today people have to form their own perception of what marriage means to them. Interesting topic.
 
when i got married it meant something very special to me. i meant what i said in my vows and i hung in there for twenty years because i took the commitment seriously.
however
at this stage, having been married for twenty years then divorced and in a live in relationship afterward for over eight years that ended suddenly, i don't even know why people want to spend more than a couple hours a day together at all.
i'm all for the magic sticking around - screw comfortable familiarity. i would love to fall in love but i do not want to be in love and i do not want to wash any man's laundry ever again
i want my sex toys in the top drawer and the toilet paper rolling on the outside. seat's down. towels hung up. thank you.
 
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I've never been married but my theory has always been that people have too many high expectations of marriage and low expectations of themselves when they get married. People expect marriage to fulfill a fantasy, and because there are "so many fish in the sea", people don't stick around or feel they have to work out things. It's easier to end it as the first sign of trouble. Marriage is supposed to be a lifetime partnership, but it sounds like most people expected fairytales and when they didn't get it, they moved on. No one wants to compromise anymore because everyone believes there is always something better out there elsewhere. We do this with jobs, career, social life, etc. It's a pattern with our culture that committment is not meant to be permanent anymore because of our society's evolution. "there's always something better out there" is easier than "love the one you're with."

Selfishness in partners and unwillingness to give and take or realize each partner is working for two, not just one is a big reason why marriages aren't working. I see it so often so many people seeing themselves a catch which deserves to have and receive A, B, and C. And then they find someone to stroke that ego. I But nothing is wrong with marriage. People too often blame the institution of marriage for personal failings or something not working out the way they thought it would, not considering that they may have had unrealistic or misguided understanding of what it would be in the first place. For me, marriage is about companionship, not someone who is going to fulfill all your dreams and be everything you want them to be. You're two different people, not clones of each other. Everyone is so focused on maintaining their individuality or independence which in some cases, is really just rationalization for selfishness and dogged self interest. We are in a me-me-me generation. Of course, marriages are not going to last with the focus always on the self and finding someone to fulfill your desires or aligns with you perfectly.

And also, just basic self respect and respect for someone's feelings or needs is key to making a marriage work. If you're only focused on having things the way you want them and having someone fit into that mode and next expect make any adjustments yourself, that's not marriage and chances are, it won't last. Most marriages which last, are about partnership and committment and interdependence (not dependence). It's not about having it easy or getting everything you want.

Yes, there's no guarantee it's going to last. But tbh, the biggest issues tend to be mismanagement of finances, and taking partners for granted, and never being satisfied with what you have because there's always something "better." Nothing is wrong with marriage just our expectations about what it should be or should offer.

Marriage shouldn't be a prison, but a chance to enjoy being with someone, in a committed relationship where both benefit from the experience through learning, growth, and deeper understanding as time goes by. If you rush into it expecting it to suddenly just work out the way you want it without putting much effort in, then you can't expect it to be satisfying. Both partners should be respected and appreciated in the relationship and should be willing to give as much as they take. They should be willing on some level to sacrifice their own wants for their partner (because they want to, not simply out of obligation) as long as those sacrifices don't cause psychological or physical harm.

So, you have to understand what marriage is or should be before condemning it. And it is going to be much harder for the current generation to believe in it because of the divorce rate.

And one last thing, it is big myth that marriage is about taking away your personal freedom, independence, or losing who you are. It really depends on your partner and their relationships skills, willingness to adjust expectations, etc.

Or if the couple feels comfortable following traditional gender roles and believes it's best for their marriage, then that's a personal decision. The woman doesn't have to be or think of herself as less empowered because of it.

We need to take responsibility for our own decisions, including what we do or don't do and quit blaming everything on marriage. It takes two people in a marriage to make it work. If they can't or don't want to make it work, then that's a decision individually or together. Doesn't mean marriage is a bust.

Edit: And there's way too much focus on marriage being about being "in love". "Being in love" only lasts for a certain period of time, after being together for a while, it becomes about learning and growing, and figuring out how to maneuver the relationship as time goes by, because people do change and the relationship will change over the years. Although many seem to think if the people change, then the relationship must naturally end. There will be some changes between 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s.
 
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[MENTION=1669]Genuine[/MENTION].
Excellent post. I have been giving this thread some thought, and while I knew how I felt and what I believe on this subject, you were able to express what I was struggling to put into words.
You nailed it.
 
I married my husband when I felt I was moving into the stage in life where I wanted to enter into a monogamous partnership for life. I know, sounds a bit dry without all the lovey-dovey wording to go with it. I believe my marriage has worked because my husband and I see ourselves as independent from one another, but are walking side by side in life. It hasn't always been easy and there were a few times when divorce might have been contemplated. Those times now seem long gone and have only solidified our bond. I honestly cannot imagine life without him in it, and I don't think there is another person on this earth who knows me the way he does ... even though I still have the ability to surprise him. There are so many elements in maintaining a marriage, but I think one that is overlooked is the genuine ability to have fun with one another.
 
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Marriage is what the people involved in it make it. However, I have found these things very helpful: similar values, respect, sense of humor and the ability to laugh at oneself, flexibility, patience, trust, honesty, commitment, loyalty, interdependence, similar interests, acceptance, forgiveness, faith, and genuinely enjoying each others company. I have also found that if you ever want to test how strong your marriage is - have kids :becky:
 
I found this interesting and kinda relevant.

[video=youtube;7uYengUXFG0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uYengUXFG0&fmt=18[/video]
 
Marriage is a Facebook status, right above its complicated.
 
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[MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION]

I watched that video the other day but didn't have time to comment.

I agree with a lot of what's being said… I think it's extremely cynical and of course it's a generalization, but I can't really argue with it either.

We are sort of an extrinsically motivated society and I think that this means that men and women are probably alienated from the 'human' aspect of each other and are more interested in the 'product' aspect of each other-- basically, we're not looking to relate to each other and grow as people (if that were true, then all it would really take would be a willingness to work on and develop a relationship), we're looking for a product that can make us happy. If we can make ourselves happy, then why do we even need anyone else? Why put up with the annoyances, the stress, the grief of a relationship?

I don't think that everyone has fallen into this kind of thinking and I do believe that people are starting to see each other in different ways… but when you start opening yourself up to alternative kinds of thinking, there's still not so many logical reasons why you would want to choose only one person to spend the rest of your life with… I don't think that humans are necessarily naturally monogamous creatures and if you're not prepared to see a commitment through then why make it in the first place?
 
I think a lot of it has to do with how you were raised also.

I have no interest in relationships at the moment ie. There's no way in hell I would even want to be thinking of marriage anytime soon, but at the same time I can't say I don't want to get married.

I would like to be able to say it doesn't matter to me, because logically I can see all the pitfalls but deep down I know someday I would like to despite the fact most of my examles of marriage have been horrendous. Growing up in the church it's just what you did....you found someone and you got married.

Does that make sense to anyone else or does it sound like complete bullshit?
 
Actually, I don't see why divorce is such a big deal, seen as a "failed marriage", or a deterrent from getting married. What is wrong with the idea that some relationships end up not lasting forever? I don't see how people make the connection of "half of marriages end in divorce," to "that means I don't want to get married," or "marriage sucks". Why would that make people not interested in trying anyway? Or make them think that marriage is a bad idea?
 
Actually, I don't see why divorce is such a big deal, seen as a "failed marriage", or a deterrent from getting married. What is wrong with the idea that some relationships end up not lasting forever? I don't see how people make the connection of "half of marriages end in divorce," to "that means I don't want to get married," or "marriage sucks". Why would that make people not interested in trying anyway? Or make them think that marriage is a bad idea?

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If it doesn't work between two people, then it doesn't work out. Why does it have to mean that marriage doesn't last when there are so many people who're still married and have been for 20 or 30+ years? There's always this need to inflate divorce statistics to support the idea that marriage doesn't work. Marriage between two particular people may not work but it doesn't mean it wouldn't work if it was with someone else. And doesn't all this depend on things like relationship experience of each person, what they expect, why they're together, cultural factors, even family or other influences, extra-marital affairs, finances, children, personality differences, etc.? Why a marriage may not work has so many things which can affect it that to blame marriage itself as if there's only one universal reason why marriages don't work for everyone who is separated or divorced is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes, the reasons are so complicated that to oversimply why they don't work is also unfair if not unrealistic. People break up their marriage for the silliest or simplest reasons. A marriage may not even work out simply because of personality differences if you think about it.
 
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That's exactly what I'm thinking. If it doesn't work between two people, then it doesn't work out. Why does it have to mean that marriage doesn't last when there are so many people who're still married and have been for 20 or 30+ years? There's always this need to inflate divorce statistics to support the idea that marriage doesn't work. Marriage between two particular people may not work but it doesn't mean it wouldn't work if it was withi someone else. And doesn't all this depend on things like relationship experience of each person, what they expect, why they're together, cultural factors, even family or other influences, extra-marital affairs, finances, children, personality differences, etc.? Why a marriage may not work has so many things which can affect it that to blame marriage itself as if there's only one universal reason why marriages don't work for everyone who is separated or divorced is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes, the reasons are so complicated that to oversimply why they don't work is also unfair if not unrealistic. But I've heard people break up their marriage for the silliest or simplest reasons. A marriage may not work out just because of personality differences if you think about it.

There is a whole other element to marriage statistics throughout the generations, and that is a woman's ability to have options. Girls were married off because they were a financial burden on the parents, and 90% of the time they didn't have the option to leave an abusive relationship either. Women gaining independence is what has screwed up the fantasy that marriages can last forever. I think the good thing about watching the generations emerge, is they are always a product of the previous ... and hopefully on a positive note are ironing out old traditions that no longer work.
 
Actually, I don't see why divorce is such a big deal, seen as a "failed marriage", or a deterrent from getting married. What is wrong with the idea that some relationships end up not lasting forever? I don't see how people make the connection of "half of marriages end in divorce," to "that means I don't want to get married," or "marriage sucks". Why would that make people not interested in trying anyway? Or make them think that marriage is a bad idea?

You're asking 'why not?' when you should be asking 'why?'--remember 'burden of proof'?

If marriage is something where people go into it knowing that they'll just back out of it when it doesn't last, then it doesn't matter either way. Why spend 20k or whatever on a wedding, ring, honeymoon, etc? It's expensive! And all for something that could easily fall apart because neither of you are any more committed than you were before you got married.

A couple could probably spend 2 years backpacking around the globe for what my sister's husband spent on their wedding, ring, etc… you would be able to see every single continent and at least 50 or 60 countries, depending on how long you stayed, etc. If that's not your thing, then you could earn a degree, or invest in the markets, or even start up a business of some kind.

Sure, weddings can be done very cheaply… but even then, WHY?? What's the advantage? If it's not bringing anything new into your relationship, then it's just a way to kill an afternoon.

If you're talking about some of the hostility towards marriage ('marriage sucks', etc.)-- I think it's probably some sort of cover for people who are bitter about relationships in general, which I also think happens a lot more nowadays. It's pretty easy to keep yourself entertained/amused without even being in any kind of relationship… and I think once you settle into that kind of lifestyle then it can be pretty difficult to get out of it. I would imagine there are also more people who are older and still virgins, or older and have never had a real relationship. I knew a guy who had never been in a real long-term relationship (just lots of casual encounters) when he was 28… sure people change, but not everyone finds the proper incentive. I think it's also gotten a lot easier for people to just give up on relationships in general and it really wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people just never bother learning how to be in one.
 
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There is a whole other element to marriage statistics throughout the generations, and that is a woman's ability to have options. Girls were married off because they were a financial burden on the parents, and 90% of the time they didn't have the option to leave an abusive relationship either. Women gaining independence is what has screwed up the fantasy that marriages can last forever. I think the good thing about watching the generations emerge, is they are always a product of the previous ... and hopefully on a positive note are ironing out old traditions that no longer work.

Marriage was never supposed to be a fantasy in the first place. We came to see it that way mostly because of fairytales, courtly love, media and romance novels. Before that, marriage was a more practical institution. It assumed a certain level of responsibility going in, whether emotionally, socially, financially, etc. And to be honest, this argument that women were the only ones who suffered or sacrificed anything of themselves in marriage is misleading. There are probably quite a few men who didn't want to be married but because it was expected and it was the "manly" thing to do, and it was a sign of capacity to lead, they went along with it. I'm sure there were quite a few men who filled the role of husband and did what they were supposed to do because it was what was expected. This idea that only men had choices or power and all men were evil beings who lauded that power over women in marriage is not really true. It feeds into the tendency to present women as perpetual victims. Both men and women made sacrifices in marriage but in different ways. Men were always expected to do the physical or heavy labor whether or not they cared to or wanted to while women were always expected to fill the domestic roles whether they cared to wanted to. Marriage wasn't always a bad or negative thing for every woman in every society or culture. There were instances in some cultures or societies where women were not always some "victim" of marriage but gained fame, influence, or power from their marriage status and the privilege. Some marriages including political marriages, even if they were arranged, actually became great partnerships. Really depends on how people experienced their lives back then. People seemed more tolerant and capable of dealing with things then. Things we complain about today would be considered ridiculous by their standards. Of course in our culture looking back, we are judge and see only negative because the choices we have are different today. Of course, we believe in our modern world we are in a superior position but I a not going to speak for anyone from the past. Marriage is too often painted as some institution which is always only bad or oppressive in the past. But not everything was always so black and white. For some, it meant stability and survival. Statistics also show that people with partners tend to live longer and are usually healthier when they're older. So, there are benefits which go beyond financial, the supposed romantic aspects of love which is too glamorized, or other practical benefits. Honestly, people were more realistic about marriage back then before the medeival, courtly romantic period. Yes, in many cases, it was too much about filling roles, duties, and responsibilities but both sexes suffered disadvantages in one way or another. Those "women were the only victims of marriage" arguments fall too much into the category of men are evil, and women are pure and innocent. Many women took great advantage of their marriage status and made it work for them in times past. They were often the advisors or decision makers even if their partners were presented as the head of the house. Gender relations in marriage is a complicated thing. Both sexes have the potential to be abusive if not physically, they can be quite abusive emotionally. Again, since we are talking about marriage today, and clearly there are more options available to us than before, it's still going to depend on the two people in it and how it works out for them. Again, there are no guarantees.
 
Having married at what I consider a young age(22yrs) I have always valued marriage, but it is because I value long term relationships in general. I found it to be a very practical thing to do when I did it. I loved my lady and she loved me, went to the justice of the peace and it has been working out pretty good since then. We have our bumps, but I wouldn't want it any other way, and I mean that, especially since we have 2 wonderful girls. I love being a dad, it is seriously one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. I look forward to it everyday, even when I'm whooped and tired from work. Divorce would be just devastating, I hope it never even comes close to ever happening. Now I'm not saying that everyone should get married or that everyone that's married shouldn't ever get divorced, but I think marriage is very important in society. But whatever one decides to do, just honor your promises. My grandfather always says that a man is only as good as his word, but that applies to everyone really.
 
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Marriage was never supposed to be a fantasy in the first place. We came to see it that way mostly because of fairytales, courtly love, media and romance novels. Before that, marriage was a more practical institution. It assumed a certain level of responsibility going in, whether emotionally, socially, financially, etc. And to be honest, this argument that women were the only ones who suffered or sacrificed anything of themselves in marriage is misleading. There are probably quite a few men who didn't want to be married but because it was expected and it was the "manly" thing to do, and it was a sign of capacity to lead, they went along with it. I'm sure there were quite a few men who filled the role of husband and did what they were supposed to do because it was what was expected. This idea that only men had choices or power and all men were evil beings who lauded that power over women in marriage is not really true. It feeds into the tendency to present women as perpetual victims. Both men and women made sacrifices in marriage but in different ways. Men were always expected to do the physical or heavy labor whether or not they cared to or wanted to while women were always expected to fill the domestic roles whether they cared to wanted to. Marriage wasn't always a bad or negative thing for every woman in every society or culture. There were instances in some cultures or societies where women were not always some "victim" of marriage but gained fame, influence, or power from their marriage status and the privilege. Some marriages including political marriages, even if they were arranged, actually became great partnerships. Really depends on how people experienced their lives back then. People seemed more tolerant and capable of dealing with things then. Things we complain about today would be considered ridiculous by their standards. Of course in our culture looking back, we are judge and see only negative because the choices we have are different today. Of course, we believe in our modern world we are in a superior position but I a not going to speak for anyone from the past. Marriage is too often painted as some institution which is always only bad or oppressive in the past. But not everything was always so black and white. For some, it meant stability and survival. Statistics also show that people with partners tend to live longer and are usually healthier when they're older. So, there are benefits which go beyond financial, the supposed romantic aspects of love which is too glamorized, or other practical benefits. Honestly, people were more realistic about marriage back then before the medeival, courtly romantic period. Yes, in many cases, it was too much about filling roles, duties, and responsibilities but both sexes suffered disadvantages in one way or another. Those "women were the only victims of marriage" arguments fall too much into the category of men are evil, and women are pure and innocent. Many women took great advantage of their marriage status and made it work for them in times past. They were often the advisors or decision makers even if their partners were presented as the head of the house. Gender relations in marriage is a complicated thing. Both sexes have the potential to be abusive if not physically, they can be quite abusive emotionally. Again, since we are talking about marriage today, and clearly there are more options available to us than before, it's still going to depend on the two people in it and how it works out for them. Again, there are no guarantees.

"Trouble in the Tearoom" was the first thing that came to my mind when I read your post.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qy...A#v=onepage&q=trouble in the tea room&f=false
 
I've been with my partner for almost four years, having lived with him nearly 3 years. It's basically a marriage. We're monogamous, pay bills together, support each other, are held accountable to one another-- But we are not considering getting married. As OP mentioned, we both feel the only reason it would be necessary is for legal or tax purposes... To me, it is an outdated institution that only exists today because it is commercialized and marketed. There doesn't appear to be anything sacred about it--not now or ever. In the past men married to have children and women married to be provided for. That was the premise, despite any romantic element That those involved were lucky enough to find. It's not necessary anymore. It just becomes another phase of consumerism. You spend a fortune on rings, your friends and family spend a fortune on gifts, spend a fortune on the dress and the ceremony and the reception. It's just a huge expense and for what? Why is it necessary when you can still have a monogamous relationship and children outside of marriage? And the reality is that people do change and outgrow one another. If my boyfriend fell out of love with me and wanted to leave, I like to think I'd let him pursue his own happiness, and visa versa. We are together because we want to be-- not because we legally have stay together. It's not my intention to dump all over marriage for those who are married and those who believe in it, it's just my opinion.