Low self-esteem vs. healthy self-esteem in INFJs

[Entyqua]

No problem... keep me informed of your happenings. Love to you and I'm always here, my strong lady!

-- Completely awesome!

I will... thank you...

 

[GaiaGraha]

I am an INFJ with an incredibly low self-esteem, and to be blatantly honest, I have no idea why. Im not sure if it's a genetic thing, because both my parents are very confident people, at least on the outside. A big reason why I never want to perform piano, or sing or dance, was because I didn't think people would clap when I finished. I try to tell myself that I don't care, but on the inside, I'm not as inhibited, not as outgoing because I am scared of how people will perceive me. A lot of the time I feel isolated, like I feel as though no one understands me, and so I hide away somewhere like in the library. I hate shopping with friends in case they think I have bad taste in fashion, I never let them look through my iPod. And tbh, I don't know why I am like this. It's not as though I am hideously ugly, or stupid. I get good grades, I am smart and talented (I will admit) and I try to be nice to everyone. However, in online communities such as this one, I almost say whatever I feel, I'm funnier, and I feel relaxed. I have a pretty healthy self-esteem online.

I think this last part is interesting. I am extremely shy with real humans, but online I am more Mind, I don't know much about psychology or personality traits, but I read somewhere that INFJ's communicate better through writing.

Maybe I have that Avoidant Personality Disorder thingy...
Yeah. I don't think that helped much. I don't know any big words

You do seem to have an unusually low level of self-esteem, so perhaps you are right and you do have a Personality Disorder. You should see a therapist to sort this out.

Many people will low self esteem are so afraid that they will fail and are so negatively affected by failure/etc that they never try things, and so they develop "Learned Helplessness", which is the feeling that you have no control and so you may as well not try, and you become helpless. This is a MAJOR part of depression. The therapy for this involves empowerment. I suggest you look into it.

I DEFINITELY suffered greatly from AvPD in my younger years. I have been seriously close with suicide in my past on multiple occasions. Strangely enough, the only thing that kept me from doing it was the thought of anguish it would cause for whoever discovered me and had to clean the mess up. Yes, I even considered which way would cause the least amount of mess.

My struggles in life have always been internal. Kids are cruel when they are young. Shit, people are cruel in general. People like you and I are very malleable in our youth and it devestates us. I hated my childhood, yet it wasn't bad. I had good parents, a normal life, a few decent friends. Yet, I could never find solace.

When I enter depression, I go deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of isolation. I don't want to see anyone, I don't want to interact with anyone. I don't want to experience life, what is there to experience but more anguish???

I dealt with this for MANY years, I highly doubt that I am done dealing with it. I had to finally realize my self worth without the help of anyone else. I had to find solace in the fact that I am not like anyone else around me. I had to start taking peace in the fact that I was helping others without anything in return. As I stated in a different post, I believe my good deeds in my life will pave the way for a good future. I believe my good deeds WILL be noticed, regardless of whether I can tell or not.

If you are anything like me, this has nothing to do with anyone else in your life but yourself. It took me moving away after graduation from my alternative high school and leaving my whole life behind to really get over all my childhood issues and find peace with myself. But also, once you get out of school, your personality flourishes in many cases in the outside world. Mature people are much more affectionate to your selflessness. If you can make it through your teenage years, it gradually gets easier, even if you aren't able to find peace with yourself.

I still hate being in crowds. Every time I hear someone I don't know laughing, I get the small voice in the back of my head telling me they are laughing at me. I have anxiety with many people that I don't know. However, my college and the experience of working in a office setting has really helped me to grow my interpersonal skills, yet at work no one knows much about me, I am very private. One thing that has helped me to cope with A LOT is exercise. Believe it or not, keeping my body in shape gives me TONS of energy! This really helps to curb my depression and greatly increases my self confidence. I am not talking intense routines, just put on some hip hop/Rock music in your basement and dance! That will certainly get the cardio up!

It is definitely a journey for all of us, I still feel like I am just beginning. I am just glad as hell I didn't end it all! I am not particualarly comfortable sharing this, and it is in fact the first time I have shared it with anyone in my life. I do so in the hope that it may help some of you to cut through some of the BS we all go through.

I also have that problem where if I hear someone laughing in a crowd/in public/etc., I think that they are laughing at me. I HATE it. But I have tried to train myself to stop it by reassuring myself that they are NOT laughing at me, because I am NOT the center of the universe, lol. And knowing that I have been involved in many laughs that were not directed at someone.

I don't really know about low self-esteem just coming from you, I believe that it is from something or a lack of something during your formative years. I think it is important that people are pointing out that many of there issues have or had to do with their care-givers, as this is generally the pattern that we see. And it is obvious why- when we are developing and we need others, those are the people who are there and who we rely on.

Studies have shown that someone cannot love themselves until someone else has shown them unconditional love, which we are supposed to receive when we are young, from our parents. ALSO: The ability to be oneself is also from the presence of someone in your life who loves you unconditionally- someone who would love you and think no less of you no matter what you did, even if you killed 100 people.

I applaud you for taking the humanistic approach and being proactive in your own process of growth.

wauw, this could be me :loco:

I was starting to believe I'm ENFJ because I'm much more outgoing and social then most of the INFJ's. But my childhood was exactly like this. So I think I have just learned to be more extraverted.

School was a hell for me untill my 18th. Not that I was picked on a lot. I walked up the schools playground thinking that when someone was laughing, she was laughing with me, or that nobody would want to talk to me or that they would shut me out of there conversation (actually that happened a couple of times). So for not to have to walk alone, I locked myself up in the toilets (yeah I know, patetic!). And when we had to pair up for an assignment or for a bus drive, I was always left over. Every day at school I was terified that we had to pair up again and nobody would want me. And all my friends dropped me one time or the other. No one sticked with me. So I thought that I must be the most boring person ever.

This went on untill finaly I found a friend who took me just as I was and sticked with me no matter what, so there I gained a lot of self esteme and I never had to walk the playground alone again . After that I went to a different school and to me it was a whole new start. I started off being more social then before, trying harder to interact with people and it worked. They accepted me, liked me, became friends with me. And now at work I could almost past for an ENFJ because I try to interact with everybody, always say hello or smile when I pass someone. And they accept me too. Not that I'm the most popular, not at all :becky: But I don't have to be.

So don't despare, there is life after highschool! Like NeverAmI says, grownups are more friendly and accepting then teenagers!

Oh dear, considering your experience in school when you were younger, I think it is very safe to say that *THAT* experience is the one that was altering your personality, and that you didn't *learn* to be an extrovert, but, rather, you were an extrovert all along and were only able to be yourself when you acquired someone in your life who liked you for you and loved you unconditionally. (here, I'll quote myself from above: "The ability to be oneself is also from the presence of someone in your life who loves you unconditionally- someone who would love you and think no less of you no matter what you did, even if you killed 100 people.")

Of course, it is still possible that you many be an INFJ. I think it is less dependent on the I or E (they can be ALMOST even for some ppl) but more on the type as a whole- and ESPECIALLY the functions. So you should look into those.

As people who are naturally attune to the needs and desires of others, and are really good at reading others, I think it manifests itself in the form of hypersensitivity and paranoia about being continually rejected. We become terribly frightened of the judgment of others, and either attempt to become people we aren't (super extroverted social butterflies) or we withdraw completely. Throughout childhood, I did both at points. I never really had that hard of a time accepting others as they were - I had an exceedingly difficult time accepting myself.

I think that in order to have a healthy self-esteem, it is vital for INFJs to accept themselves on some level. Yes, we will always (doubtlessly) try to continually improve ourselves, and understand ourselves, but I think that a healthy self-esteem starts with the ability to accept our short-comings - and to learn to laugh at them. I didn't learn to accept my own short-comings for years. Others laughing at you becomes a lot less frightening when you learn to laugh at yourself. For example - please feel free to mock - I am deathly afraid of slipping and falling. It's a phobia. It's just as bad when I'm walking on marble when it's raining and I'm not wearing slip resistant shoes as it is standing on the edge of a cliff with no barrier. As long as there's a barrier, it's OK. Is this ridiculous? Absolutely. I haven't broken a bone in ten years. I lived in Utah for a few years and it snowed there ALL THE TIME, and yet I still have this fear. But I could laugh about it, or cry about it. I choose laughter and self-deprecation.

We're Js. Every single one of us has at least a few great friends, whose personalities we know ridiculously intimately well. With each person, you know their shortcomings, and what makes them great individuals. When we learn to realize that other people see us this way as well - that they know our flaws and our strengths and accept us nonetheless - we realize that there is less to fear from others.

As far as how it differs from other personality types...I think it tends to make us more extreme. We withdraw from our society entirely, claiming we don't care about the rest of the world, or we try to hard to win others over that we let them walk all over us and try to project the exact opposite of what we truly are (something we're very bad at doing).

I can relate to a lot of this: the hypersensitivity, the withdrawal, etc.

I wanted to point out, as I have before, that it's been shown that one cannot actually love oneself unconditionally (accept oneself, etc) until someone else does. And so I think that one cannot laugh at one's flaws unless someone else has accepted us for them, and loved us in spite of them. And this becomes much harder if we are rejected for said flaws- than the acceptance needs to overthrow that somehow.

This may sound depressing, but I still feel that there is room for the humanistic approach and a can-do attitude to growth in self-love and self-esteem.

my answer is a resounding no as well...it doesn't change my self image...I could give a crap what anyone thinks of me...But inside...i still have troubles accepting me for me...On some level I will never be good enough

I used to always say that, but I think that it's not entirely true. If you really didn't give a crap what anybody thought, then you really wouldn't have so much trouble accepting yourself. We are social and cultural creatures, and we are basing the judgments of ourselves based on the society we were groomed to take part in.

no...I give my everything to everyone around me, and save nothing for myself...I am not as important to me as they are...I can wait. They need me now!

I realize this...but I give her my all...I build her up...if I have anything to feel good about its her...Dont underestimate my ability to love myself, and an inability to mold her...She will have everything I never did...

People-pleasing is no way to go about being happy. It is draining. And you say that you give your daughter your all, etc, and that you don't need any more happiness but her....but you need to see that regardless of what you say to her SHE WILL pick up on your low self-esteem, people-pleasing, lack of self-love, etc, and she will learn it from you.
My mother was always a VERY strong woman, intelligent, funny and loving, etc. But she had a problem with staying in a relationship that was NOT good, and even though she directly taught me otherwise, in the end her actions taught me to settle. It caused me a lot of trouble because I did the same thing and got stuck in a horrible relationship, but I stayed, not valuing myself to look for more, instead favoring the "this is it, make it work" mentality. Thankfully through much counseling/gestalt/etc I was able to realize these things and break free. But I still have this problem.
You should buy this book that I am reading: "How to Say No Without Feeling Guilty"- it's great!

Thank you for sharing this with me, And I do understand...completely...I know parts of me are healing, parts of me are starting to see me clearly...but other parts...deeper buried parts...still hurt...and newer parts are hurt every time I talk to my parents. I know I need to stop looking to them to fix it...stop looking to them at all. I want to move away from here...far away from them...It would help me i know.

She lives 10 minutes from me, and can still guilt me into coming over and spending the day being taunted and antagonized about what a horrid daughter I am...God I'm almost 30 it shouldn't matter so much... All I ever wanted was her approval that something I did in my life was right...But she can never do that...

My husband wont move...so Im stuck here...Too weak to tell her to go to hell...

You should really consider therapy or even group therapy.
And possibly going to a counselor with your mother so she can learn that she is verbally and emotionally abusing you, and she needs to stop.
And possibly go with your husband so he can hear you out on how important the move is to you.
Of course, resolving the relationship with your mother may be impossible, depending on whether she is willing to face herself and change, but it might be worth a shot. And, if not, than go for yourself so that YOU can move on.

I love you and I wanted you to know this! --- Sweetie, the "hurt" will always be there. But, it is them... never you.

I love that fact that you want to move. Weird as it may sound... This shows your strength! (You are strong)

Remember that "line" between you and them. (That helps me alot.) So, that you remember it's okay to say "No" and "I choose different." Their job is to respect it.

I love you and am so very proud of your progress... your never alone!

I also wanted to point out that though the memory and source of the "hurt" may always be present, the pain/anger/etc does NOT need to linger. In fact, that is exactly what one should NOT do. That is why I advocate for therapy, especially Release Work. When one can fully express those emotions and release them, than one is free to move and to take the steps forward that those emotions had previously held them back from.

 

[Entyqua]

...I have tried going to sessions with my mother, her sessions...NO never again. I am done trying to make her see...Shes too selfish to ever worry about anyone but her self...

 

[GaiaGraha]

...I have tried going to sessions with my mother, her sessions...NO never again. I am done trying to make her see...Shes too selfish to ever worry about anyone but her self...

I know how that is. I have had troubles with my mom- as the more she got into trying to save her relationship, the more neglected we became. And the verbal and emotional abuse, and sometimes physical abuse, my sisters and I endured is just swept under the rug.
She is selfish, unwilling to change, unable to hear criticism, and incapable of learning from a differing opinion. Honestly- I am ashamed that she is my mother. She is so...so much less than I had thought she was when I was growing up.
But I have expressed my anger and pain and shame through group therapy and release work. And now I accept her for who she is as a person and as a mother. I may not have the greatest amount of respect for her, but I can appreciate the things that are good about her. Also- not hanging out with her all that often certainly helps. So I am glad you think that is a good plan too, and I sure hope that you can figure out a way to move farther away.

 

[Entyqua]

I know how that is. I have had troubles with my mom- as the more she got into trying to save her relationship, the more neglected we became. And the verbal and emotional abuse, and sometimes physical abuse, my sisters and I endured is just swept under the rug.
She is selfish, unwilling to change, unable to hear criticism, and incapable of learning from a differing opinion. Honestly- I am ashamed that she is my mother. She is so...so much less than I had thought she was when I was growing up.
But I have expressed my anger and pain and shame through group therapy and release work. And now I accept her for who she is as a person and as a mother. I may not have the greatest amount of respect for her, but I can appreciate the things that are good about her. Also- not hanging out with her all that often certainly helps. So I am glad you think that is a good plan too, and I sure hope that you can figure out a way to move farther away.

I agree my opinion of her is so much less than it was as a child...but an opinion based on fear is no opinion at all...

I try to stay away, but she can still guilt me into seeing her. I hate that she can do that...

Moving away...I doubt I will accomplish that unless its through divorce court. My husband refuses to move away from his mom.

 

[GaiaGraha]

I agree my opinion of her is so much less than it was as a child...but an opinion based on fear is no opinion at all...

I try to stay away, but she can still guilt me into seeing her. I hate that she can do that...

Moving away...I doubt I will accomplish that unless its through divorce court. My husband refuses to move away from his mom.

My mom guilts me too. I f&$%ing hate it as well. >_<

.....You're husband sounds......dumb, and sorry for saying it. Maybe he needs to realize that he has his own family that he is supposed to look after now. argh. Couples Counseling?

You should definitely get the book I suggested, "How to Say No Without Feeling Guilty". It is important that you are capable of putting up boundaries to protect yourself, and your daughter, from your mother's poison.
Ya know, I had the same problem with taking care of others and not myself, and a veeerrryyyy intelligent lady told me "You need to find the mother in yourself that will protect you as your daughter", and I really like that. I think you should do that. And, also, you can realize that your little girl is an extension of you and is affected by you and your life, so by protecting yourself, you are also protecting her.

 

[Entyqua]

My mom guilts me too. I f&$%ing hate it as well. >_<

.....You're husband sounds......dumb, and sorry for saying it. Maybe he needs to realize that he has his own family that he is supposed to look after now. argh. Couples Counseling?

You should definitely get the book I suggested, "How to Say No Without Feeling Guilty". It is important that you are capable of putting up boundaries to protect yourself, and your daughter, from your mother's poison.
Ya know, I had the same problem with taking care of others and not myself, and a veeerrryyyy intelligent lady told me "You need to find the mother in yourself that will protect you as your daughter", and I really like that. I think you should do that. And, also, you can realize that your little girl is an extension of you and is affected by you and your life, so by protecting yourself, you are also protecting her.

Couples counceling HAHAHA with an INTJ/P HAHAHA The very idea of counseling is illogical to them...Feelings are nothing more than secretions of the brain...He stays, and I quote "Because you are good lookin, you can put up with my garbage, And I enjoy your mutal company" HOW EFFING ROMANTIC RIGHT!! No that will never happen...He thinks I should just man up and tell my mom where to go and how to get there...but honestly I think that would kill her...and as much as I revel in the thought of being free of her forever...my concious would be forever tortured...

I will totally look into that book...I know its hard to beleive, but if you all could see me with my daughter, you would know the strength I have to give her...even if its only her. I have never let her hear me say anything negative about myself.

 

[NeverAmI]

...I have tried going to sessions with my mother, her sessions...NO never again. I am done trying to make her see...Shes too selfish to ever worry about anyone but her self...

You should redirect all this effort to yourself.

 

[Entyqua]

You should redirect all this effort to yourself.

I shall, but it will not be in a therapy session, I dont believe in them...

 

[GaiaGraha]

Couples counceling HAHAHA with an INTJ/P HAHAHA The very idea of counseling is illogical to them...Feelings are nothing more than secretions of the brain...He stays, and I quote "Because you are good lookin, you can put up with my garbage, And I enjoy your mutal company" HOW EFFING ROMANTIC RIGHT!! No that will never happen...He thinks I should just man up and tell my mom where to go and how to get there...but honestly I think that would kill her...and as much as I revel in the thought of being free of her forever...my concious would be forever tortured...

I will totally look into that book...I know its hard to beleive, but if you all could see me with my daughter, you would know the strength I have to give her...even if its only her. I have never let her hear me say anything negative about myself.

Sounds like your husband needs his head cracked open a little bit. A tad narrow-minded, are we not? Hm.
Well perhaps you can give her an ultimatum: STOP BEING A BITCH OR WE'RE DONE.
heh...heh.....

That is GREAT about your daughter. I'm sure you are very careful. But children are smarter than they looks, they don't just learn from our words.
But I am sure that your love for her will inspire you to be all you can be for her.

I shall, but it will not be in a therapy session, I dont believe in them...

You...don't 'believe' in therapy? Or just one-on-one with a psychologist. Cuz honestly, if you don't believe in it at all than that is being narrow-minded, like your hubby. But if you don't believe in just the one-on-one, then I can understand that. I don't really get much out of it- it's too awkward to share like that. I MUCH prefer utilizing the Reciprocity Norm and doing group or gestalt-style therapy. Where a group gets close and shares personal things together and expresses those emotions together and helps each other through it. You build a lot of trust, and it is SO effective. Ya just gotta find the right group, led by the right person.

 

[Entyqua]

Sounds like your husband needs his head cracked open a little bit. A tad narrow-minded, are we not? Hm.
Well perhaps you can give her an ultimatum: STOP BEING A BITCH OR WE'RE DONE.
heh...heh.....

That is GREAT about your daughter. I'm sure you are very careful. But children are smarter than they looks, they don't just learn from our words.
But I am sure that your love for her will inspire you to be all you can be for her.



You...don't 'believe' in therapy? Or just one-on-one with a psychologist. Cuz honestly, if you don't believe in it at all than that is being narrow-minded, like your hubby. But if you don't believe in just the one-on-one, then I can understand that. I don't really get much out of it- it's too awkward to share like that. I MUCH prefer utilizing the Reciprocity Norm and doing group or gestalt-style therapy. Where a group gets close and shares personal things together and expresses those emotions together and helps each other through it. You build a lot of trust, and it is SO effective. Ya just gotta find the right group, led by the right person.

One on one...There are people here who have helped me more than any session i have ever been to. I am not closed minded I have been. I left him once...he changes for...I dunno, a couple months...now were back in the ole saddle again

 

[water]

One on one...There are people here who have helped me more than any session i have ever been to. I am not closed minded I have been. I left him once...he changes for...I dunno, a couple months...now were back in the ole saddle again

Hi Sweetie,

How did I know that we would perhaps go to the husband that repeats the Bad behavior? Sometimes, although the pain is terrible, at least it's familiar... because we know what to expect. And once we get whole, we begin to part with both. Spouse and childhood past. (He will change as you change... it's weird, but it works that way.)

You will show it through example, and usually the partner will fallow suit; without you even saying a word.

--- Have a awesome day/night!

 

[Solongo]

What are signs of low self esteem in INFJs?

I can only speak for myself. I have a lot of doubt in my abilities even though I am good at lot of things. But in my head I always think I can do better and if I can't do better then I get depressed. But I would say feeling down about one's appearance, not having courage to change what one don't like about themselves and bad posture are signs of low self esteem. Also not making eye contact and carrying one's weight with balance and positive energy.


Do you think the characteristics of an INFJ with low self esteem would be different from the characteristics of another type with low self esteem?

Maybe. I don't know enough about other type's low self esteem. Might be general all aboard.

Do you think the characteristics of an INFJ with healthy self esteem would be different from the characteristics of another type with healthy self esteem?

Perhaps. In this society many people consider extrovertedness a sign of confidence and high self esteem. I would think all the IN types with healthy self esteem possess a quiet power. That power is portrayed through calmness, reason, care and not being afraid to speak their minds in the face of scrutiny. I think Males would be stable, strong and dependable. Females could shy, sultry, passionate and intelligent.

 

[NeverAmI]

Females could shy, sultry, passionate and intelligent.

Yes. That works.