Is the fantasy genre and fantasy gaming racist?

[Lark]

Racial distinctions, effective seperatism and race wars are effectively features of the fantasy genre pretty much, whether its World of Warcraft or table top gaming or game books or novels like LOTR, you are very unlikely to find goblins fighting for the empire, order, the realm or coming to the aid of hobbits and men in LOTR, what's your view about this?

I never gave it a lot of thought and I think it was an essay by either Alan Moore or Michael Moorcock which made me have second thoughts about it, I know that there are authors who have written fantasy books (but also science fiction books its got to be said) like Poul Anderson who were raving right wingers (although I would argue that its not thematically powerful in his storytelling for the most part, not even when he writes the story about the last communist and the last republican in a post-industrial apolitical america strangling one another and drowning in an accident in a river) but I never thought of the genre itself as being at fault. Which ever one of those two it was that wrote that piece I'm thinking about compared LOTR to Mein Kampf, they thought that sci fi was instrinsically more progressive, with the exception of Ayn Rand (although I wouldnt really class Rand's books as sci fi you know).

What are you views? Or is this just overthinking things?

 

[Faye]

Maybe, but is being racist against orcs and goblins that bad of a thing?

As far as real world racism is concerned, games and the genre itself has become much more diverse and accepting.

 

[Cosima]

Just overthinking. I don´t think it is effective to force modern pseudo-multiculturalism opinions into every aspect of life. Races in fantasy works, because they are archetypes of our thinking. We like to identify with hero and his special kind and we want our enemies to be monsters.

 

[Lark]

Just overthinking. I don´t think it is effective to force modern pseudo-multiculturalism opinions into every aspect of life. Races in fantasy works, because they are archetypes of our thinking. We like to identify with hero and his special kind and we want our enemies to be monsters.

My first reaction to that critical appraisal of the genre was that it was pretty diverse to begin with, I know that there's at least one book which turned to criticism on its head and suggested that no it was the sci fi and particularly post apocalyptic genre that was racist with the "book by Hitler" called The Iron Dream, which I think is a mockery of Judge Dredd.

The idea that the species are archetypes of thinking is much better though, I do agree with that now.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Race is associated with ethintisity. The main distinctions you are noting in the body of your post seems to be more based on political ideals. So naturally the question is, was that your intention?

 

[hk427f3]

Usually in fantasy 'races' are different anthropomorphic species, pretty much. And speciesism is totally okay.

 

[Rcs6r]

Over-thinking it. Some authors who write fantasy could be racist and have racist undertones in their work, but fantasy as a whole cannot be racist.

The reason you see those species depicted as evil is because lots of modern fantasy (largely thanks to Tolkien) deals in black-and-white, where the "good guys" are beautiful humanoids clad in white and the "bad guys" are ugly, grotesque creatures who wear black and lots of spikes.

That, and creatures like goblins and trolls are actually malevolent creatures in their original folklore, so it makes sense they continue to be depicted as bad to this day. Not all works are like this but many are because it's trendy.

 

[Lark]

I found some links for the thread, probably should have had them at the outset:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moorcock#Views_on_fiction_writing

http://recollectionbooks.com/siml/library/Moorcock.htm

 

[Tin Man]

I don't it's racism (or speciesism), just lazy writing. Elves are often flighty and attracted to nature. Dwarves are stubborn and traditional. Orcs are evil and brutish. Tolkien had a huge influence in the fantasy genre and so writers will use his ideas as it's far easier than crafting an interesting, believable world.

The are, of course, plenty of good fantasy writers who try to create more unique interesting landscapes, with their own flora and fauna. But even these can have the markings of Tolkien upon them, albeit in more subtle ways.

 

[Trifoilum]

Yes, that is racism. When ALL goblins encountered are [insert trait here]. or all orcs encountered are [insert trait here]..... it is.

I don't it's racism (or speciesism), just lazy writing. Elves are often flighty and attracted to nature. Dwarves are stubborn and traditional. Orcs are evil and brutish. Tolkien had a huge influence in the fantasy genre and so writers will use his ideas as it's far easier than crafting an interesting, believable world.

The are, of course, plenty of good fantasy writers who try to create more unique interesting landscapes, with their own flora and fauna. But even these can have the markings of Tolkien upon them, albeit in more subtle ways.

At the same time there's this. Yep, a lot of stereotypical beliefs in many fictions are truly symbols of bad writing / bad research.
Sometimes there's also a type of stories that follows the plot, not the character. Where characters are serving the plot only-- not as individuals of their own. Sometimes easy identification is all that mattered in such a case.

 

[the]

Why are elves a race but rabbits or cows are not referred to as the cow race.

 

[Lark]

I don't it's racism (or speciesism), just lazy writing. Elves are often flighty and attracted to nature. Dwarves are stubborn and traditional. Orcs are evil and brutish. Tolkien had a huge influence in the fantasy genre and so writers will use his ideas as it's far easier than crafting an interesting, believable world.

The are, of course, plenty of good fantasy writers who try to create more unique interesting landscapes, with their own flora and fauna. But even these can have the markings of Tolkien upon them, albeit in more subtle ways.

Have you ever read Michael Swanwick or Poul Anderson's Elves or fantasy writing? It will blow your mind.

In The Iron Dragon's Daughter Elves are about the most terrible and terrifying thing you'd ever have the bad luck to meet, child molestors and jaded uber mensch who hate and are obsessed with humanity, in one scene in a swave club a horse or unicorn is drowned in a tank of water inset in a wall for the entertainment of the clubbers ordering drinks at the bar, that's not even the most disturbing thing happening in that book and in Poul Anderson's Broken Sword book the Elves messing with human children and stealing babies results in an elaborate incest plot and all because the sick so and so architect of it all is bored with their longevity.

Terrifying. The characters are kind of like Muir's illuminati class of people.

 

[Lark]

Yes, that is racism. When ALL goblins encountered are [insert trait here]. or all orcs encountered are [insert trait here]..... it is.


At the same time there's this. Yep, a lot of stereotypical beliefs in many fictions are truly symbols of bad writing / bad research.
Sometimes there's also a type of stories that follows the plot, not the character. Where characters are serving the plot only-- not as individuals of their own. Sometimes easy identification is all that mattered in such a case.

I think that some of the pulp fiction novels, particularly a lot of Heinlein's, dont really deserve the depth of deconstruction or analysis which Moorcock gives them but its an interesting point about the kinds of mindsets they could be encouraging in innoxious ways preparing the ground for a meaner, badder sort of "ideological creep".

 

[Lark]

Why are elves a race but rabbits or cows are not referred to as the cow race.

In David Brin's Uplift Wars maybe.