Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with a person who has low self esteem/worth?

[flower]

I think it is about going into relationships, not to change someone, but rather accepting who and where they are as a person. there is no reason not to fully love a person of low self esteem. .but it is not you job or place to try to "fix" them. . if you dont love the the way they are, then you dont love them

We shouldn't try to change anyone and I do agree with you that, you either accept someone or then don't accept. It's their own journey of self-growth and healing and only if it's something they want to do etc.

 

[David54]

We shouldn't try to change anyone and I do agree with you that, you either accept someone or then don't accept. It's their own journey of self-growth and healing and only if it's something they want to do etc.

amen sister. .

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I agree. But I think hos has some very specific to him gender roles he likes to follow. From what I can see he is very fixated on gender.

Lol. Honestly I think it's a very useful category for understanding life, but most people are wary of being drawn into less productive contemporary political debates so try to avoid it. This is not where I'm coming from, however - my reflections on gender are much more idiosyncratic.

So basically women seek someone strong for support. Men are ok with providing support or putting up with issues. Because a person with low self esteem is usually vulnerable.

So it becomes like a protector sort of dynamic. Is it really an unequal drain though? It must have an impact on men.

Idk. Personally I think women can be just as strong as men and that equal partnerships are hot. One doesn't need to be more vulnerable.

Oh an 'equal' partnership between peers is ideal, but that doesn't mean that the division of labour (physical, mental and emotional) needs to be or ought to be exactly split in half in all aspects. In fact, I don't think that works for the majority of straight couples.

What I'm getting at is that I think most women have a much keener sense of 'safety' than most men, and that this sense is actually quite sensitive to being disrupted by the dispositions of their partners, for example.

Just from my own life, I've witnessed many examples of men being stressed and depressed from work, with the result being that their wives totally switch off from them, start to despise them, look elsewhere, &c. I've seen female colleagues be disgusted by, and as a result actively avoid, male colleagues who are struggling. The opposite scenario doesn't really happen and wouldn't be socially acceptable in any case.

So yes, I think there is an 'unequal drain' depending on the genders involved, with perhaps the key element being this additional 'sense of safety' resource that women have to manage in addition to the emotional reserves everybody has - a struggling man is going to damage that sense of safety much more than a struggling woman, multiplied by the degree of intimacy in the relationship.

These are just my subjective life heuristics, though, so take all that with a grain of salt. They are simply principles which seem to play out in reality more than they do in the theoretical world of ideals.

 

[slant]

Would you be able to share examples of what you're wondering is starting to get into negative territory? Or what you think is normal about your friendships?

I have a friend, Luke, who asks my opinion on a lot of topics. He's very complimentary and has imitated a lot of the things I do. At first it was flattering but then I started feeling weird about it. He did eventually take those things and make them his own. When we speak I just don't like how heavily he weighs my opinion. Feels like a power imbalance and he is often unwilling to disagree with me or if he does he backpeddals.

Then there's this guy I went on a date with who was apologizing a lot and very self conscious. I told him just to be himself and that it was fine but he couldn't stop doing it. I liked him as a person and we have common interests but he was again putting too much weight on what I had to say.

I have this friend, Marc, who won't communicate what he does or doesn't want to do. We had plans to do something and I cancelled because I didn't feel up to it- he had forgotten about the plans anyway- but he told me that he would have gone anyway even though he didn't want to, and I told him I don't want him to do something he doesn't want to do and he said eh he'd find a way to make it beneficial for him too and I was just very disturbed by this behavior.


And I guess that's what bothers me the most about people with low self esteem. They seem to overvalue your opinion and over prioritize your needs so the power imbalance is off. I feel uncomfortable. I try to correct the power imbalance but try as they might these people are incapable of it because they don't value themselves, so they can't behave as if they do.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I have a friend, Luke, who asks my opinion on a lot of topics. He's very complimentary and has imitated a lot of the things I do. At first it was flattering but then I started feeling weird about it. He did eventually take those things and make them his own. When we speak I just don't like how heavily he weighs my opinion. Feels like a power imbalance and he is often unwilling to disagree with me or if he does he backpeddals.

Then there's this guy I went on a date with who was apologizing a lot and very self conscious. I told him just to be himself and that it was fine but he couldn't stop doing it. I liked him as a person and we have common interests but he was again putting too much weight on what I had to say.

I have this friend, Marc, who won't communicate what he does or doesn't want to do. We had plans to do something and I cancelled because I didn't feel up to it- he had forgotten about the plans anyway- but he told me that he would have gone anyway even though he didn't want to, and I told him I don't want him to do something he doesn't want to do and he said eh he'd find a way to make it beneficial for him too and I was just very disturbed by this behavior.


And I guess that's what bothers me the most about people with low self esteem. They seem to overvalue your opinion and over prioritize your needs so the power imbalance is off. I feel uncomfortable. I try to correct the power imbalance but try as they might these people are incapable of it because they don't value themselves, so they can't behave as if they do.

You've said elsewhere that submissive men (people? Or just men?) tend to be attracted to you, right? Is this what's going on here, do you think? That this is just the position they prefer to be in? How are they with other people?

 

[slant]

You've said elsewhere that submissive men (people? Or just men?) tend to be attracted to you, right? Is this what's going on here, do you think? That this is just the position they prefer to be in? How are they with other people?

They are the same way with everyone.

Yes, submissive people tend to be drawn to me. I don't like submissive people, either.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Yes, submissive people tend to be drawn to me. I don't like submissive people, either.

You're fucked.

 

[slant]

You're fucked.

That's helpful thank you hos.

I know I can always count on you for your optimistic encouragement

 

[Deleted member 16771]

That's helpful thank you hos.

I know I can always count on you for your optimistic encouragement

Alright, I think I have enough on this to give you my actual advice:

Power imbalances in friendships are tricky, since they are by nature relationships of peers. Both parties spend time together by choice, with no other obligation or motivation, and hence it's more than a bit weird when 'power' of any kind seems to be involved. I understand your discomfort.

I think the appropriate course of action here is communication - you simply need to have conversations with these dudes about what it is that's making you uncomfortable. They're probably unaware that what they're doing is not to your taste, and might even think that this is how you like to be interacted with. They may even have personal histories where they've learned that people like them when they're deferential and complimentary, and maybe especially so to tiny women like you, slanty.

At bottom I don't think this is about trying to figure out general principles of self-esteem & relationships, but in learning to navigate your own friendships more openly and robustly.


I had a situation like this once with a female friend, where it seemed like nothing I was was impressive to her, and everything I did was 'wrong'. We were incompatible personalities really, forced together by a daily carpool to and from work. At one point I'd had enough and simply confronted her about it, and as it happens she was behaving like this because she felt intimidated by me (and my 'big words') and so leant into trying to give me advice all the time in order to address the perceived power imbalance. Once we had that conversation, things were much better and more comfortable.

I suspect that if you don't address this actively, slant, you'll instead try to address it passively like my friend there, and just ruin the friendships even further.

Just talk, that's all. You know what the problem is and you are skilled enough to communicate it to them.

 

[slant]

Alright, I think I have enough on this to give you my actual advice:

Power imbalances in friendships are tricky, since they are by nature relationships of peers. Both parties spend time together by choice, with no other obligation or motivation, and hence it's more than a bit weird when 'power' of any kind seems to be involved. I understand your discomfort.

I think the appropriate course of action here is communication - you simply need to have conversations with these dudes about what it is that's making you uncomfortable. They're probably unaware that what they're doing is not to your taste, and might even think that this is how you like to be interacted with. They may even have personal histories where they've learned that people like them when they're deferential and complimentary, and maybe especially so to tiny women like you, slanty.

At bottom I don't think this is about trying to figure out general principles of self-esteem & relationships, but in learning to navigate your own friendships more openly and robustly.


I had a situation like this once with a female friend, where it seemed like nothing I was was impressive to her, and everything I did was 'wrong'. We were incompatible personalities really, forced together by a daily carpool to and from work. At one point I'd had enough and simply confronted her about it, and as it happens she was behaving like this because she felt intimidated by me (and my 'big words') and so leant into trying to give me advice all the time in order to address the perceived power imbalance. Once we had that conversation, things were much better and more comfortable.

I suspect that if you don't address this actively, slant, you'll instead try to address it passively like my friend there, and just ruin the friendships even further.

Just talk, that's all. You know what the problem is and you are skilled enough to communicate it to them.

I think that's a weird thing to talk about though, and also not accepting of their authentic selves.

"Hey, friend. I don't like aspects of you." I don't think that's appropriate.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I think that's a weird thing to talk about though, and also not accepting of their authentic selves.

"Hey, friend. I don't like aspects of you." I don't think that's appropriate.

But you don't accept their 'authentic selves', whatever that means.

Either you address it, or you continue to hang around with people who actively creep you out.

In any case, I think your perception here is off in that you're equating behaviours to 'self'. Behaviours can be corrected, especially in social contexts where it's absolutely acceptable to negotiate a middle-ground of mutually agreeable conduct.

 

[Lady Jolanda]

The thing for me is that I don't like how people with low self esteem behave.

No one does, right?

I don't mind it at all. I just feel empathy and care.

But it's fine that you dislike how people with low self esteem behave. (Although I question that they all behave the same, and that you dislike all behaviors. It's probably a specific behavior.)

So this seems like contradictory information. Yes, it's possible to have a healthy relationship with people with low self esteem, no you shouldnt be friends with someone you expect to change/ don't like.

It's not contradictory.

I think the clue is in that you said "no one does, right"? so you think noone likes people with low self esteem, which isn't the case. If a person doesn't mind the low self esteem of the other person, and doesn't expect them to change, then it's possible to have a healthy relationship. (And paradoxically enough, from that place the person with low self esteem will start to grow and get healthier too.)

f you dont love the the way they are, then you dont love them

Precisely.

Relationships that are balanced. It can't just be one person getting all the benefit. That's not a partnership.

Indeed.
You don't have to both bring the same thing to the table, it can be complementary, as long as you both bring something and there's an overall balance.

Oh an 'equal' partnership between peers is ideal, but that doesn't mean that the division of labour (physical, mental and emotional) needs to be or ought to be exactly split in half in all aspects. In fact, I don't think that works for the majority of straight couples.

Yes, this.

ust from my own life, I've witnessed many examples of men being stressed and depressed from work, with the result being that their wives totally switch off from them, start to despise them, look elsewhere, &c

My first instinct is to swear at these women in anger and disgust.

But then I remember all the research I've read, and I need to ask this hard question. Is this because of the stress / depression from work per se, or because the men in question withdraw as a result? For example, Sue Johnson's research says this happens when people don't turn towards each other when it gets hard, but instead turn on or away from each other.

They seem to overvalue your opinion and over prioritize your needs so the power imbalance is off. I feel uncomfortable. I try to correct the power imbalance but try as they might these people are incapable of it because they don't value themselves, so they can't behave as if they do.

They overvalue your opinion because they want your acceptance. They prioritize your needs cause they either feel they don't deserve to have any, or it's a indirect way of getting their own needs met. (I give to you, so you give back.)

"Hey, friend. I don't like aspects of you." I don't think that's appropriate.

But they already feel it though, that you don't like those aspects. Humans are pretty good at picking up such vibes. Having this conversation may actually help bring it out in the open and make them more comfortable. Trust is built upon honestly and stuff.

 

[slant]

But you don't accept their 'authentic selves', whatever that means.

Either you address it, or you continue to hang around with people who actively creep you out.

In any case, I think your perception here is off in that you're equating behaviours to 'self'. Behaviours can be corrected, especially in social contexts where it's absolutely acceptable to negotiate a middle-ground of mutually agreeable conduct.

Hmm.

"I notice you agree with me a lot. I want you to know I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. New perspectives help us grow as people."

"I know that you said you would do our plans even if you didn't want to. I appreciate your commitment to our plans, but I only want to make plans that are mutually enjoyable. Is there a different activity or time that would be more enjoyable for you?"

"You ask me my opinion about things often and seem very influenced by it. I am flattered, but I want to know what you think about the topic."

 

[slant]

I just know that if someone had these dialogs with me I would be a little prickly.

"If you don't like me... Don't hang out with me. I am what I am."

Then again I'm incredibly self reflective. I know myself well. I don't think many people do.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Hmm.

"I notice you agree with me a lot. I want you to know I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. New perspectives help us grow as people."

"I know that you said you would do our plans even if you didn't want to. I appreciate your commitment to our plans, but I only want to make plans that are mutually enjoyable. Is there a different activity or time that would be more enjoyable for you?"

"You ask me my opinion about things often and seem very influenced by it. I am flattered, but I want to know what you think about the topic."

You are awesome, slant, that's got something to do with it. You'll notice that a lot of us are very complimentary to you, too. It's not because we're submissive sycophants, but rather that you're behaving and thinking in ways which we approve of. You're cool, and that's a fact.

As for your broaching sentences there, originally I thought 'soft, but good', but actually none of them communicate what you actually feel. You may need to be a bit blunter.

 

[Lady Jolanda]

I think those examples sound great Slant. They affirm both your position and theirs. It's respectful and leaves room for the both of you.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I just know that if someone had these dialogs with me I would be a little prickly.

"If you don't like me... Don't hang out with me. I am what I am."

Then again I'm incredibly self reflective. I know myself well. I don't think many people do.

Hmm, yeah. Tricky.

 

[slant]

You are awesome, slant, that's got something to do with it. You'll notice that a lot of us are very complimentary to you, too. It's not because we're submissive sycophants, but rather that you're behaving and thinking in ways which we approve of. You're cool, and that's a fact.

As for your broaching sentences there, originally I thought 'soft, but good', but actually none of them communicate what you actually feel. You may need to be a bit blunter.

"I don't like that you value my opinion so highly. Go find your own opinions."

"It irritates me that you are willing to go participate in plans you don't want to do. I don't respect people who don't have a spine."

 

[Deleted member 16771]

My first instinct is to swear at these women in anger and disgust.

But then I remember all the research I've read, and I need to ask this hard question. Is this because of the stress / depression from work per se, or because the men in question withdraw as a result? For example, Sue Johnson's research says this happens when people don't turn towards each other when it gets hard, but instead turn on or away from each other.

No, in one case it was because he was sharing too much. He (her colleague) wanted to talk about his problems, so he brought her down and she avoided him as a consequence. The same woman's husband got into difficulties and she ended up wanting/trying to have an affair with me around the same time. By comparison I was the 'rock' in her life, running the department at work during a crisis.

Hard not to take that lesson at face value.

 

[Lady Jolanda]

I just know that if someone had these dialogs with me I would be a little prickly.

"If you don't like me... Don't hang out with me. I am what I am."

Hmm... I see what you mean, and I have definitely felt like that in the past. You say you're very self reflective so this should be an easy one to answer: do you feel attacked? Is this a psychological defense?