Is it easier for Fe users to accept Christ as truth, and not just a myth??
- Thread starter grt$5vb
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Met too. I do know a INTJ who is christian though, because and I quote, "The Values logically contribute to a well functioning and efficient society"
I don't agree that the current model of Physics "highly supports" the idea of a God... but, an honest scientist must offer up that there is a non zero probability that outside the physical universe we exist within is a sentient being that created the universe we exist in.
However, a scientist who is equally as honest about the consequence of asserting that there's a non zero probability of a God must also offer up an honest sense of the probability that the God has anything at all to do with a man made God... once you lay out a few things on the table it quickly becomes apparent that the odds are really not very good for the existence of any God currently in the minds of man.
Taking into consideration the number of different religions with different Gods in our civilisation (all of whom claim theirs is the one true God). Taking into consideration the number of other planets that are out there and the probability of many many many other aware civilisations in our own universe. Taking into consideration multiple universes... etc. etc.
I've found though that in general for a religious person probability doesn't come into the picture at all... as soon as it's conceded that there is a non zero chance that a God may exist the discussion is over in their minds... for all they care you've completely supported their world view. Honesty can be crippling sometimes :-(
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[MENTION=4718]Sebastian[/MENTION]: Your right there there are a lot of things to make one question a God that interacts with humans and that most people really do not consider the facts, or probability when they are dead set on keeping their religious ideals. On the other hand, I would say "highly supports" because if you look at what we know as much less than people want to believe (aka: butterfly effect/chaos theory, tectonic forces within the depth of the earth that we try but fail to predict with any type of precision, evolution not turning out always the way that it "should" according to our most current theories, the climate as a whole system, and countless other things I am sure you can come up with yourself). Then we get into things that we do not have the theories to explain at all so we just stop talking about them because it is silly to talk about things that we cannot know or have no way to prove (multiverse theory) and other sudo-science theories, or things such as well documented and witnessed cases of miraculous/horrific things that cannot all be written off as hoaxes.... no one wants to talk about the things that we cannot explain. I would put much of that, or what we see as chaos theory as the workings of who/whatever created us because, otherwise, I don't think what probability supports and what actually happens in reality align what-so-ever.
In part too, without a somewhat theistic view of the world I tend to go towards total epistemological nihilism. That is where my scientific thought and technical training has lead me: there is nothing we can know for sure, not even our own thought processes. If I am just some random bits of higher form of ape than how can I even know my rational is accurate? If so many people do have mental disabilities such as schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, or even lessor ones like depression and bi-polar (that science, for all our great knowledge, cannot figure out fully or cure, and no they cannot despite what you see on tv, I have several friends who suffer from one or the other of the above mentioned and nothing the medical or phycological fields have said or done has really helped) than how do I know that my entire life is not just a figment of my imagination? How does anyone? We live as if it was real because that is the option open to us if we want to have a life at peace with ourselves and others. But we can never know, no one can. If you cannot predict anything on a cause and effect basis (which if you take Heizenburg and Quantum together you know) then how does anything we do matter/have meaning? We do not live in a Euclidean universe, we live in one far vaster than we can ever know. You never stop trying to question or know, but still, if you look at it the natural progression of a naturalistic worldview it is to a nihilistic one.
Okay, this is kind of a pessimistic view... sorry, today was a frustrating day, but hopefully you still kind of see what I am getting at. I try not to be fully nihilistic because I know that good comes out of things and that miracles do happen, even if I do not understand why. This allows me the hope to NOT go and destroy the world because all life is pointless. If it is pointless why not just be done with it and help the universe to its promised entropic death.
My understanding of why miracles happen is based that their must be a God because otherwise miracles would not happen and everything would constantly go towards entropic, universal death and chaos. It is much more rational for me to believe in an open universe, not a closed one. As an open universe precludes that there are outside effectors on our universe. Those must have some measure of control. With no control, even in an open universe, the rate of miracles would be the same as the rate of horrific, irrational occurrences (I do not see any rooms in which all the oxygen is suddenly concentrated in only one corner... or other peculiar happenings such as that...).
So do you sort of see where I am coming from? For our world to exist as we know it there must be external factors consciously pushing things one way or another, if this is so then I call those forces God because it has the power and desire to make rational changes both within and outside of our physical laws. If anyone has another explanation of these occurrences I would love to hear it. (Also, before trying to deny that unknown occurrences exist, find the scientific probability of mass hallucinations for me and then compare that too the actual number and distribution of such occurrences. I think you will find that the probability for such mass hallucination is much less than the number of well documented, but completely unprobable occurrences.)
Thank you for your time.
In part too, without a somewhat theistic view of the world I tend to go towards total epistemological nihilism. That is where my scientific thought and technical training has lead me: there is nothing we can know for sure, not even our own thought processes. If I am just some random bits of higher form of ape than how can I even know my rational is accurate? If so many people do have mental disabilities such as schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder, or even lessor ones like depression and bi-polar (that science, for all our great knowledge, cannot figure out fully or cure, and no they cannot despite what you see on tv, I have several friends who suffer from one or the other of the above mentioned and nothing the medical or phycological fields have said or done has really helped) than how do I know that my entire life is not just a figment of my imagination? How does anyone? We live as if it was real because that is the option open to us if we want to have a life at peace with ourselves and others. But we can never know, no one can. If you cannot predict anything on a cause and effect basis (which if you take Heizenburg and Quantum together you know) then how does anything we do matter/have meaning? We do not live in a Euclidean universe, we live in one far vaster than we can ever know. You never stop trying to question or know, but still, if you look at it the natural progression of a naturalistic worldview it is to a nihilistic one.
Okay, this is kind of a pessimistic view... sorry, today was a frustrating day, but hopefully you still kind of see what I am getting at. I try not to be fully nihilistic because I know that good comes out of things and that miracles do happen, even if I do not understand why. This allows me the hope to NOT go and destroy the world because all life is pointless. If it is pointless why not just be done with it and help the universe to its promised entropic death.
My understanding of why miracles happen is based that their must be a God because otherwise miracles would not happen and everything would constantly go towards entropic, universal death and chaos. It is much more rational for me to believe in an open universe, not a closed one. As an open universe precludes that there are outside effectors on our universe. Those must have some measure of control. With no control, even in an open universe, the rate of miracles would be the same as the rate of horrific, irrational occurrences (I do not see any rooms in which all the oxygen is suddenly concentrated in only one corner... or other peculiar happenings such as that...).
So do you sort of see where I am coming from? For our world to exist as we know it there must be external factors consciously pushing things one way or another, if this is so then I call those forces God because it has the power and desire to make rational changes both within and outside of our physical laws. If anyone has another explanation of these occurrences I would love to hear it. (Also, before trying to deny that unknown occurrences exist, find the scientific probability of mass hallucinations for me and then compare that too the actual number and distribution of such occurrences. I think you will find that the probability for such mass hallucination is much less than the number of well documented, but completely unprobable occurrences.)
Thank you for your time.
I can't figure out how to do the "Mentioned" thing so I'll just reply and hope for the best 
"Meaning" is subjective... if you want to split hairs then my world view is that no, nothing has any "Meaning".
Most of the time these religion/spiritual/science conversations skim about above a core issue... "Free Will".... so we have the ability to "Choose"?
It's seems to me that a requirement of most religions that one has "Free Will"... the God who has given the "Free Will" then judges the individuals based on the way they exercise their "Free Will".
My understanding of reality is that "Free Will" is but an illusion... see, my understanding of reality is that there is no "soul" or a special place in the collection of atoms that comprise my body that are exempt from the rest of the physical world that I have learnt about.
So, ultimately my world view is that choice is an illusion... which is quite a strange place to end up really, because it seems I'm absolved from any responsibility for my actions (because I don't have the power of choice, so the concept of "responsibility for actions" is null and void)... BUT, I also have no power to use that insight to do anything that I wouldn't have already done anyway.
Finally, as I'm typing these words that I had no choice to type ;-) the end result is that for all intents and purposes I exist in my day to day life as if I have free will... I experience the wonder of making choices as much as someone who thinks that free will is alive and well... I'm glad I had tea instead of coffee just now, even though I kind of really wanted a coffee I know that my body processes caffeine at about half the rate it used to since I have quit smoking so I'll go for a green tea instead... and I'm glad I made that choice... but, split hairs and talk about the guts of reality and what's what when it comes to existence, no, I am but a collection of atoms, no different from the cup I'm holding.
I've always thought that life is so much more precious and important to embrace because we DO die, because we have a finite time.
The meaning of life is to give life meaning... don't you just love those circular phrases ;-)
I suppose the wonders and miracles for me comes from an understanding of the universe I live in. I have only recently got a new phone, a Samsung Galaxy S2... which is a big step up for me, although I work in IT I've never been a "gadget freak" and I also try to recycle and keep things working so my "gadgets" tend to be quite out of date. Anyway, I was sitting outside learning about this thing... this device that has internal gyroscopes, muti-axis magnetic sensors, accelerometers, can receive signals from satellites that are orbiting thousands of miles above my head... on and on and on... it's truly incredible what is packed into that thing I'm holding in my hand.... THEN, look out at the trees and the sand and the bush around me... and thought deeply about it, the device I'm holding in my hand came from that.
Really, think about it, walk away from all civilisation so you can't see any houses, building, nothing... then look at the mobile phone in your hand and think about how you would go about making that from what you see around you.
That's the sort of wonder that grabs me... I just say "WOW" and feel that even though me, as an individual, can't make that device... I'm capable of it... and I have the deepest respect for those that can.
I have some understanding of physics given that I studies university physics... so that probably fuels my passion, some of the "ah ha" moments in University when I really got a grasp on some fundamental leaps of insight that were made by great minds in the past was an excitement I've only felt a few times since... not because I'm a "nerd" or because I've had a boring life, it was just a profoundly deep experience to grasp the threads of thought that all come together to understand something that no one had ever understood before.
It's truly astonishing some of the predictions that science has made, the "Standard Model" of Physics has been incredibly accurate. We'll find out by the end of this year if the Higgs Boson / aka "God Particle" exists (possibly the worst choice of naming for a particle ever made... but they've got to get the general public funding the project somehow ;-))... I'm betting they won't find it and that the "Standard Model" is incomplete.
Anyway, I'm getting way off topic and rambling... sorry :-(
I can't convince anyone to change their views of reality, I'm big enough and ugly enough to know that... just in the same way that someone couldn't change my perception of reality. From where I'm standing I have a deep concern about where we're going a species... because my understanding of reality is that this life is all there is and that we are the first species that actually has a realistic chance (on a good day) of getting our **** together and making it to the stage where we might not be limited to an existence on one tiny ball orbiting one star out of the billions in our galaxy... and the billions of galaxies that we already know about.
"Meaning" is subjective... if you want to split hairs then my world view is that no, nothing has any "Meaning".
Most of the time these religion/spiritual/science conversations skim about above a core issue... "Free Will".... so we have the ability to "Choose"?
It's seems to me that a requirement of most religions that one has "Free Will"... the God who has given the "Free Will" then judges the individuals based on the way they exercise their "Free Will".
My understanding of reality is that "Free Will" is but an illusion... see, my understanding of reality is that there is no "soul" or a special place in the collection of atoms that comprise my body that are exempt from the rest of the physical world that I have learnt about.
So, ultimately my world view is that choice is an illusion... which is quite a strange place to end up really, because it seems I'm absolved from any responsibility for my actions (because I don't have the power of choice, so the concept of "responsibility for actions" is null and void)... BUT, I also have no power to use that insight to do anything that I wouldn't have already done anyway.
Finally, as I'm typing these words that I had no choice to type ;-) the end result is that for all intents and purposes I exist in my day to day life as if I have free will... I experience the wonder of making choices as much as someone who thinks that free will is alive and well... I'm glad I had tea instead of coffee just now, even though I kind of really wanted a coffee I know that my body processes caffeine at about half the rate it used to since I have quit smoking so I'll go for a green tea instead... and I'm glad I made that choice... but, split hairs and talk about the guts of reality and what's what when it comes to existence, no, I am but a collection of atoms, no different from the cup I'm holding.
I've always thought that life is so much more precious and important to embrace because we DO die, because we have a finite time.
The meaning of life is to give life meaning... don't you just love those circular phrases ;-)
I suppose the wonders and miracles for me comes from an understanding of the universe I live in. I have only recently got a new phone, a Samsung Galaxy S2... which is a big step up for me, although I work in IT I've never been a "gadget freak" and I also try to recycle and keep things working so my "gadgets" tend to be quite out of date. Anyway, I was sitting outside learning about this thing... this device that has internal gyroscopes, muti-axis magnetic sensors, accelerometers, can receive signals from satellites that are orbiting thousands of miles above my head... on and on and on... it's truly incredible what is packed into that thing I'm holding in my hand.... THEN, look out at the trees and the sand and the bush around me... and thought deeply about it, the device I'm holding in my hand came from that.
Really, think about it, walk away from all civilisation so you can't see any houses, building, nothing... then look at the mobile phone in your hand and think about how you would go about making that from what you see around you.
That's the sort of wonder that grabs me... I just say "WOW" and feel that even though me, as an individual, can't make that device... I'm capable of it... and I have the deepest respect for those that can.
I have some understanding of physics given that I studies university physics... so that probably fuels my passion, some of the "ah ha" moments in University when I really got a grasp on some fundamental leaps of insight that were made by great minds in the past was an excitement I've only felt a few times since... not because I'm a "nerd" or because I've had a boring life, it was just a profoundly deep experience to grasp the threads of thought that all come together to understand something that no one had ever understood before.
It's truly astonishing some of the predictions that science has made, the "Standard Model" of Physics has been incredibly accurate. We'll find out by the end of this year if the Higgs Boson / aka "God Particle" exists (possibly the worst choice of naming for a particle ever made... but they've got to get the general public funding the project somehow ;-))... I'm betting they won't find it and that the "Standard Model" is incomplete.
Anyway, I'm getting way off topic and rambling... sorry :-(
I can't convince anyone to change their views of reality, I'm big enough and ugly enough to know that... just in the same way that someone couldn't change my perception of reality. From where I'm standing I have a deep concern about where we're going a species... because my understanding of reality is that this life is all there is and that we are the first species that actually has a realistic chance (on a good day) of getting our **** together and making it to the stage where we might not be limited to an existence on one tiny ball orbiting one star out of the billions in our galaxy... and the billions of galaxies that we already know about.
Well. . . Scientific thinkers are more likely to become atheists as they get further in detail with their research. God doesn't fit in the scientific world. I suppose that they either keep god seperate from their science, or they emotionally compartmentalize to keep thing simple.
It's all a matter of semantics. If you say "God", I say, "a force that exists within everyone aspect of life". If you say "Christ" I say, "A good guy who lived 2,000 years ago. If you say "The son of God", I'd say, "Aren't we all?".
As for the organized religious aspect of Christ, you're looking at an INFJ who bought into it and then traded it in for a more practical viewpoint. I asked too many questions at church and when the one about my pet going to heaven when he would die was never answered with a definitive "yes" or a "no", I lost my faith - I was 10.
So, in short, my Fe was ready to try to believe in God and Christ, but when a stronger Fe/emotion took the spotlight (my love for my pet) that won out. So, perhaps INFJs are more accepting of Christ providing that belief doesn't conflict with their values/feelings?
As for the organized religious aspect of Christ, you're looking at an INFJ who bought into it and then traded it in for a more practical viewpoint. I asked too many questions at church and when the one about my pet going to heaven when he would die was never answered with a definitive "yes" or a "no", I lost my faith - I was 10.
So, in short, my Fe was ready to try to believe in God and Christ, but when a stronger Fe/emotion took the spotlight (my love for my pet) that won out. So, perhaps INFJs are more accepting of Christ providing that belief doesn't conflict with their values/feelings?
[MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION]. Humans don't have all the answers, and we never will. I tell my daughter that grown ups don't always know the answers to her questions, and sometimes they make things up, or offer their best guess. I wish people would stop being afraid to say, I don't know.
Well spoken. I believe in God as a matter of faith and am not very analytical about it. I also don't try to analyze why I love my kids or my siblings. I just do.
It's not the same thing. We're not innately born with a love of Christ or God. We choose to love them.
I would even say that loving people who share your DNA is basically subjective, and a form of self love.
To me it's a constant process of discovering it again and again. Or un-covering it if you will.
Nevertheless - it's always there and always been there.
One analogy I've heard is this:
Even though you may see clouds covering up the sun - you know the sun is there behind them. Constant. Radiant. Pure.
We are all the same way. Constant. Radiant. Pure Being. Spirit in Human form.
Digging through the muck layered upon us from childhood is the process you're doing...and I'm doing...and Studebakerhawk is doing ...and millions of others are doing.
[i see you shining
]That sounds beautiful. It's just as a Christian, I am taught that we are born into sin. That we are innately prone to selfishness, and wickedness, and have to constantly rail against those impulses. I guess, I can see your description as the potential of our best selves. I hope I am nearing that, but it is not in me to believe that I have that without Christ. If there is good in me it is of Him. I can't own that.
sigh...I know I'm going to step on toes here...
The "born into sin notion" is part of the muck.
In your words: "The good in you is of him" - is right. Christ is also another name for our innate buddha nature.
Remember - buddha is a word that means Truth or Awakened One - which can also be said to mean "one has realized their true Spirit". Christ is a word for the holy Spirit.
They are the same.
According to the Mosaic Law in the Old Testament, in the portion called the Torah, the testimony of two or three witnesses is true. Jesus Christ was seen by 500 witnesses on one single occasion after His Resurrection. That's one serious eyewitness account!
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NYLilac: the witnesses must testify before a beit din (jewish tribunal) and must both be "kosher" jews. Even then, the witnesses must convince the tribunal. It is the tribunal that rules, not the witnesses.
There is a case in the longer canon of the prophet Daniel: the story of Susanna (Shoshana). Two elders conspire together to rape her and lie about it in court, and Daniel uncovers their plot and vindicates the woman. Obviously, while two witnesses is mandatory, two witnesses alone is not sufficient.
Please please please. My only request of Christians is to actually LEARN about Judaism first, before making these kinds of comments. Believe what you want, but don't misrepresent us.
There is a case in the longer canon of the prophet Daniel: the story of Susanna (Shoshana). Two elders conspire together to rape her and lie about it in court, and Daniel uncovers their plot and vindicates the woman. Obviously, while two witnesses is mandatory, two witnesses alone is not sufficient.
Please please please. My only request of Christians is to actually LEARN about Judaism first, before making these kinds of comments. Believe what you want, but don't misrepresent us.