Is fear the root of all evil?
- Thread starter Quiet
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Although, I think that Evil is nothing but a label we gave to everything that threatens us or our species and its existence, I think that most of what is perceived as evil stems from selfishness or lack of empathy. Personally, I would say it's more of the latter than the former.
I definitely see how fear and empathy/love can be two powerful motivators of human behavior. And they can come into conflict, for sure.
I agreed that fear was the root of all evil a short time ago but I've been talking it out lately and I'm changing my mind. As has been said, it's just not that black and white. Fear can protect us and give us strength. So can love. And both can cause us to make mistakes. But they don't really happen in isolation do they? One tends to come with the other.
I think both are valid.
I agreed that fear was the root of all evil a short time ago but I've been talking it out lately and I'm changing my mind. As has been said, it's just not that black and white. Fear can protect us and give us strength. So can love. And both can cause us to make mistakes. But they don't really happen in isolation do they? One tends to come with the other.
I think both are valid.
Thanks for all your imput!
I define greed as an excessive or unhealthy desire to have more than you need.
Here are some of the reasons I think that fear can lead to greed. Some of them are more abstract, and others tie in together.
Fear of not having enough
Fear of losing what you have
Fear of facing youself- fear of self awareness
Fear of losing face
Fear of looking stupid in front of others
Fear that people will not like you
Fear of being powerless
Fear of loving others
Fear of trusting others
Fear of the world and natural environement
Fear of not looking good naked (in essence this is how we come to the world, eveything else is our own creation and perception)
Fear that someone will harm your loved ones
Fear that someone may steal fom you
Fear that someone may hurt you
Fear of failure
Fear of admitting and dealing with past mistakes
Fear of being hurt
Fear of being in pain
Fear that no one will love you
Fear that no will accept you
Fear of being wrong
Fear of hunger
Fear of sickness
Fear of people
Fear of being disregarded
Fear of not being valued
Fear of not being understood
Fear that people will take advantage of you
Fear that you will be left behind
Fear of being alone
Fear of being lonely
Fear that you dont have control
Fear that you are not good enough
Fear that you are not capable
Fear of losing yourself
Fear of letting go of your ego
Fear of uncertainty
Fear of not fitting in
Fear of truth
I hate the terms good and evil as well. I dont belive in evil. I believe in effective and non-effective behaviour. Behaviour that creates harmony as opposed to behaviour that harms. I belive that all behaviour and experience is potentially useful and educational. And I belive in balance.
Im trying to use the term from its original context in the Bible
-For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10
Dealing with fear is a constant struggle for me as well. The hardest part for me is seeing the ugliness in myself. Love, grace, self awareness and acceptance is what will see me through.
David Zindell is my favourite authour. He writes sci fi- A Requiem for homosapiens. All his quotes are so good. I want to mind merge with him! (I know thats creepy, I wish him no harm). His writings are a big part of who I am today.
I love Donnie Darko!! I had forgotten until I saw the clip. And yes it is hilarious. It would seem that the dvd has been sitting on my shelf for years influencing my thought without my knowledge
I have always seen apathy as the opposite to passion, feeling, interest, emotion, empathy.
I dont think apathy can love or hate. Maybe apathy is what prevents us from knowing and experiencing love? I think apathy is as dangerous as hate.
I agree with what you've said. Fear coupled with disinformation and misinformation is constantly used to manage our perceptions and enslave us.
Overcoming ignorance and the lack of self awareness is critical in managing and overcoming fear.
I used to think that ignorance is the root of evil but then I realised that many people choose to be ignorant. You can provide people with information, explain things, prove things, even show them how to use critical thought but people will not accept this information or knowledge if they dont want to believe. Even highly intelligent people. They may not want to go against the staus quo, against their peers, face the lies they have been fed, face themselves, lose face - and all the other fears I mentioned above in response to Odyne's question. Ignorance is bliss for a reason- the truth can be painful and not everyone can handle it.
Sometimes we choose to remain ignorant because we are afraid. We are afraid of the truth and what might find
I define greed as an excessive or unhealthy desire to have more than you need.
Here are some of the reasons I think that fear can lead to greed. Some of them are more abstract, and others tie in together.
Fear of not having enough
Fear of losing what you have
Fear of facing youself- fear of self awareness
Fear of losing face
Fear of looking stupid in front of others
Fear that people will not like you
Fear of being powerless
Fear of loving others
Fear of trusting others
Fear of the world and natural environement
Fear of not looking good naked (in essence this is how we come to the world, eveything else is our own creation and perception)
Fear that someone will harm your loved ones
Fear that someone may steal fom you
Fear that someone may hurt you
Fear of failure
Fear of admitting and dealing with past mistakes
Fear of being hurt
Fear of being in pain
Fear that no one will love you
Fear that no will accept you
Fear of being wrong
Fear of hunger
Fear of sickness
Fear of people
Fear of being disregarded
Fear of not being valued
Fear of not being understood
Fear that people will take advantage of you
Fear that you will be left behind
Fear of being alone
Fear of being lonely
Fear that you dont have control
Fear that you are not good enough
Fear that you are not capable
Fear of losing yourself
Fear of letting go of your ego
Fear of uncertainty
Fear of not fitting in
Fear of truth
I've not heard of this "Zindell" - but I sure do like their quotes!
I'm not into calling things good and evil. Life is lived in the grey areas and "good" and "evil" seem too black&white....
I do agree the root of grasping/clinging/greed is fear. It can usually be found at the base of anger and hatred too.
The fear I will not survive drives me crazy.... In other words - I do harmful acts when I'm reacting from the position of fear. Harmful acts to others - maybe. Definitely harmful acts to myself. :nod: It holds me down - keeps me frozen(in fear) - blocks my energy - damps down my creative thinking ability.
I also agree that Fear is the other side of Love.
Every day that I show compassionate love to myself while noting my current fear state - is a victory over my Fear. It's a constant struggle...
I hate the terms good and evil as well. I dont belive in evil. I believe in effective and non-effective behaviour. Behaviour that creates harmony as opposed to behaviour that harms. I belive that all behaviour and experience is potentially useful and educational. And I belive in balance.
Im trying to use the term from its original context in the Bible
-For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10
Dealing with fear is a constant struggle for me as well. The hardest part for me is seeing the ugliness in myself. Love, grace, self awareness and acceptance is what will see me through.
David Zindell is my favourite authour. He writes sci fi- A Requiem for homosapiens. All his quotes are so good. I want to mind merge with him! (I know thats creepy, I wish him no harm). His writings are a big part of who I am today.
I love Donnie Darko!! I had forgotten until I saw the clip. And yes it is hilarious. It would seem that the dvd has been sitting on my shelf for years influencing my thought without my knowledge
That is interesting. I will give it more thought. I think I see where you are coming from.
I have always seen apathy as the opposite to passion, feeling, interest, emotion, empathy.
I dont think apathy can love or hate. Maybe apathy is what prevents us from knowing and experiencing love? I think apathy is as dangerous as hate.
I agree with what you've said. Fear coupled with disinformation and misinformation is constantly used to manage our perceptions and enslave us.
Overcoming ignorance and the lack of self awareness is critical in managing and overcoming fear.
I used to think that ignorance is the root of evil but then I realised that many people choose to be ignorant. You can provide people with information, explain things, prove things, even show them how to use critical thought but people will not accept this information or knowledge if they dont want to believe. Even highly intelligent people. They may not want to go against the staus quo, against their peers, face the lies they have been fed, face themselves, lose face - and all the other fears I mentioned above in response to Odyne's question. Ignorance is bliss for a reason- the truth can be painful and not everyone can handle it.
Sometimes we choose to remain ignorant because we are afraid. We are afraid of the truth and what might find
Thank you, very true.
Please elaborate on this, I would love to see you flesh this idea out.
I still think that the love of money comes from greed but I will think about it more. I can see how the love of money and greed work perpetuate each other. They are certainly entwined together.
Where do you think that the love of money comes from?
I have a sense of what the Bible explains as evil, having been around it all my life. Good and evil have a place in my vocabulary, as well as my mind. To me, trying to say evil does not exist might actually be a way of saying, "I do not want to believe in evil." We believe in what we want to believe in, do we not? It seems alright for me to want to believe in evil. I often wonder, though, if it is a belief at all.
"Main article: Augustinian theodicy
Augustine of Hippo proposed a theodicy reconciling God's goodness with evil present in the world. He argued that evil does not exist in itself, but is a privation, or going wrong, of goodness. He argued that evil exists as a result of free will of either humans or angels and, as a result, all evil is either sin or the punishment of sin.[SUP][6][/SUP] Aquinas agreed with Augustine and suggested that evil must exist for the appreciation of goodness: if there is no suffering, freedom from suffering cannot be truly appreciated.[SUP][7][/SUP] Like Augustine, Aquinas believed that evil does not exist independently and can only be understood in terms of goodness, which does exist. He thus saw evil as a deviation from goodness." copied from WIKI...
also,
"Privation in philosophy
In philosophy, privation is used to describe the absence of a necessary quality in the universe. The Augustinian theodicy denies the existence of evil as its own entity. Rather, evil is described to be a privation, or going wrong, of good.[SUP][5][/SUP] Conversely, Maimonides argued that privation is not necessarily a bad thing: it would be trivial to regard the privation of hair - baldness - an evil. Moreover, it has been suggested that not all evil is due to a privation; malaria, for example, is due to not a lacking, but an excess (in this case, of disease).[SUP][6]" copid same place[/SUP]
I therefore see the turning away from goodness as that which is deemed as evil, leaving me with no problem in understanding evil.
"Main article: Augustinian theodicy
Augustine of Hippo proposed a theodicy reconciling God's goodness with evil present in the world. He argued that evil does not exist in itself, but is a privation, or going wrong, of goodness. He argued that evil exists as a result of free will of either humans or angels and, as a result, all evil is either sin or the punishment of sin.[SUP][6][/SUP] Aquinas agreed with Augustine and suggested that evil must exist for the appreciation of goodness: if there is no suffering, freedom from suffering cannot be truly appreciated.[SUP][7][/SUP] Like Augustine, Aquinas believed that evil does not exist independently and can only be understood in terms of goodness, which does exist. He thus saw evil as a deviation from goodness." copied from WIKI...
also,
"Privation in philosophy
In philosophy, privation is used to describe the absence of a necessary quality in the universe. The Augustinian theodicy denies the existence of evil as its own entity. Rather, evil is described to be a privation, or going wrong, of good.[SUP][5][/SUP] Conversely, Maimonides argued that privation is not necessarily a bad thing: it would be trivial to regard the privation of hair - baldness - an evil. Moreover, it has been suggested that not all evil is due to a privation; malaria, for example, is due to not a lacking, but an excess (in this case, of disease).[SUP][6]" copid same place[/SUP]
I therefore see the turning away from goodness as that which is deemed as evil, leaving me with no problem in understanding evil.
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you got me thinking now too.
certainly greed and money are old pals, but we can be greedy with other things as well. our food, our time, our generosity, our attentions, etc. (stinginess is just another form of greed to me)
so in that respect the root of greed is not only money, but many other things.
it seems that your original statement is correct afterall lol.
without greed money would not be an issue. greed was around before money was, right?
Yes true but ignorance of our true condition is what leads to the fear you are talking about
Also there is the world of difference between knowing something and truely understanding it.
For example i was involved in a union dispute where i saw how people reacted in different ways. Its at times like that that people show their true colours.
Some recognised the need for unity amongst the workers to resist the oppressive move of the coercive hierarchy whilst some gave into fear and crawled on their bellies to management and licked their jackboots.
Those that gave into fear might have known that unity amongst the workers would have provided the desired response (fairer conditions that didn't compromise the ethics of the workers) on a conscious level because this had been explained to them but they didn't really understand it otherwise they would have agreed to it.
Their failure to truelly understand the opportunity that was presented to them has meant that they are now trapped in an environment in which they are miserable
I see that situation as a microcosm of the wider societal crisis macrocosm that we are all facing at the moment.
People are still appeasing the bankers in the hope that the economy will be rescued. They are failing to understand that the bankers will just keep taking and that is exactly what they are doing. One day everyone will wake up owning nothing but the shirt on their back because all the laws they thought protected them, their rights and their property have been rewritten.
This failure to grasp the wider implications and look at the long game is born out of an ignorance of the truth
Its true that there is a world of difference between knowing something and understanding it. What do you mean when you say ignorance of our true condition? Do you mean the harsh reality of our world with all its coercive power plays and lies? Or do you mean our 'true condition' in terms of our humanity and true self awareness?
What makes you certain that the workers would have agreed and not given into their fear if they had understood? Is it possible that they failed to understand because of fear?
Sorry if we're going around in circles. I do think that ignorance and fear are symbiotic and somewhat hard to separate.
In a sense both
If they had truely understood then they wouldn't have been afraid
You're right we shouldn't waste our energies on such a minor point. You have identified a very real aspect of the human condition which is fear and i don't want to derail a great thread, i just wanted to put in another perspective
You are of course right that all these things blend together and perhaps what some spiritual teachers are doing is blending them even further to the point where light and dark are part of the same thing, distinguishable only when perceived as a duality?
I'm still getting to grips with these concepts myself so i don't have complete understanding....yet!
In a sense both
If they had truely understood then they wouldn't have been afraid
You're right we shouldn't waste our energies on such a minor point. You have identified a very real aspect of the human condition which is fear and i don't want to derail a great thread, i just wanted to put in another perspective
You are of course right that all these things blend together and perhaps what some spiritual teachers are doing is blending them even further to the point where light and dark are part of the same thing, distinguishable only when perceived as a duality?
I'm still getting to grips with these concepts myself so i don't have complete understanding....yet!
Agreed. I'm glad you brought in another perspective. Very intriguing thoughts.
Phew
Probably not, I don't have enough experience to make such statement with "oomph", I would say that it courage maybe the root of most change, and that fear has lost its affect in our day and age, but it works pretty well onna erme...a coward....We all seen a bit of fear, and it doesn't necessarily lead to evil, I think......maybe not.
Last time I thought about this, I concluded that ignorance is the root of all evil. Ignorance and/or laziness.
Greed is more or less ignoring the fact that you don't need that stuff.
I think of the evil that men do and then think that if they would actually think, they probably wouldn't do such evil.
Fear is being too lazy to be courageous enough to overcome said fear.
Fear of truth is really just deliberate ignorance of truth, too lazy to handle the truth.
Etc.
Fear of trusting someone. That's a hard one. I guess, if I don't trust someone, I just don't trust that person. Fear or being afraid to trust someone else... I guess it is quite abstract.
I guess I don't get it.
Ignorance and laziness, it is convenient. Maybe convenience is the root of all evil.
Slavery was/is convenient. Stealing things is convenient if you have no money. Randomly murdering people isn't convenient... Where does that evil come from?
Am I defining evil wrong here?
I should go sleep
Greed is more or less ignoring the fact that you don't need that stuff.
I think of the evil that men do and then think that if they would actually think, they probably wouldn't do such evil.
Fear is being too lazy to be courageous enough to overcome said fear.
Fear of truth is really just deliberate ignorance of truth, too lazy to handle the truth.
Etc.
Fear of trusting someone. That's a hard one. I guess, if I don't trust someone, I just don't trust that person. Fear or being afraid to trust someone else... I guess it is quite abstract.
I guess I don't get it.
Ignorance and laziness, it is convenient. Maybe convenience is the root of all evil.
Slavery was/is convenient. Stealing things is convenient if you have no money. Randomly murdering people isn't convenient... Where does that evil come from?
Am I defining evil wrong here?
I should go sleep
I wasn't going to say anything but I decided to do so anyway. I might regret it but here goes: Am I the only one who notices, that quote is one example of fear?
One of the reasons I have "issues" with much of what you post, Muir, is that it is fear-mongering at its finest. Fear based on greed (after all, without greed, one would not care about one's property at all. One would be a lily in the field. Personally, I am not a lily and I do care about my property. I don't think this makes me evil, do you?)
Fear of "the power elite" runs through so many of your posts that I am surprised to see you posting in a way that implies you would like people to be less fearful. Usually you seem to want people to be more fearful and to be convinced management/rich people are out to get them.
It is almost like you normally say "Be Afraid. Be VERY Afraid." and now all of a sudden you're all "Oh, be brave -- and don't compromise! And show solidarity, except not solidarity with management because they are out to get you" Another theme that runs through your posts is "Money! The power elite have it and you are their slave!" If this is not fear and greed, please tell me what it is?
Perhaps the issue is that I do not think rich people or managerial types are automatically evil. (Nor do I think that about poor people) Sometimes they are, to be sure, but more often than not, they are just human, and perfectly aware of the need to work together and compromise.
I am not intending to be confrontational, even though it probably sounds that way. And I was not even going to mention this since I am fairly confident it will result in me being called stupid or a sheep. But I've resigned myself to that inevitability.
I see his admonitions as a warning about the Greed of the elite. Sure there is fear in that motivation. Fear of becoming almost slaves. Fear of losing the freedom to think and take action upon those thoughts. Fear that people like us - INFJs - will be boxed into a corner with no windows. For example: the apa is considering putting introversion and shyness into the new DSM-V. Many of us here are introverts and shy - according to majority standards.
You are right to call him on his fear. Fear is usually the base from where we humans react - if you dig down deep enough. Let's face it - we have lived and still live in a scary world. The monsters have just changed from beasts in the wild - to the beasts within. I heard a talk recently that explained we are hardwired to be afraid. That's how we survived to now. We are very adept at fine tuning and honing our abilities to be fearful and allegedly recognize something to be afraid of.
I do not feel that Fear is Evil. Fear in of itself has it's place in our lives just as any of our emotions/feelings do. Our task is to study it. Respect it. Know it for what it is. Learn how to recognize the truth when Fear shows up.
If muir is using Fear to call attention to the truth of how the elites are increasing their power so as to subjugate us - then so be it. What else is he going to use to get our attention. We are managed that way. The elites use Fear to run us as herds of horses into the canyon corrals. He provides as many perspectives as he can find out there to give others the chance to make up their own minds.
And for the record - I don't think the rich people are evil. I think they are just as ignorant as many are ......that we are all one. And that what they do to us(the masses) - they also do to themselves. Same ole shit...just more glitz.
Thanks for sharing this.
I think the better informed people are the more liberated they are even if that means getting to grips with uncomfortable truths.
I've already explained earlier in this thread that i don't think fear is the biggest problem, i think ignorance is the biggest problem; i believe fear stems from ignorance
I would like to see money done away with altogether.
In the meantime we should recognise money for what it is.
Here's a good documentary called 'the money masters' that was made in 1996 and predicted the 'crisis' that we are in; it explains the part money is playing in things pretty well: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936#
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Selfishness and lack of empathy lead to 'evil'. I totally agree with this. The inability to see yourself reflected in others and to undertand that their life is as valid as your own. People that are selfish and have no empathy cannot love. I think that selfishness and lack of empathy are not innate, but they are learned behaviours, products of culture and environment. We live in an indivualistic culture that praises and rewards selfishness and lack of empathy. People that are selfless and more community orientated are labeled communists, matyrs, naive, unrealistic, idealsitic, ignorant of the 'real world', enemies of libertainism and 'freedom'.
The culture of capitalism is one of fear and competition. Capitalism- if you dont play the game you will be left behind and starve. If you play the game you have to compete against others and be ruthless. It then becomes illogical to be concerned about the welfare of others, and all this becomes justified because at the end of the day there is only so much pie to go around, so if you dont snatch your piece you will go hungry. It is me against you, us against them, our country against the world. In essence it is feeding your family at the expense of other families going hungry.
I think that at the root of selfishness and lack of empathy are fear, ignorance and laziness. I feel sorry for people that are like this beacuse they are missing out on the essence of being human, to love and receive love and the ability to achieve their full potential, unhindered by fear and disinformation.
Both are certainly valid, can hinder us and give us strength. Fear serves a valuable purpose essential to survival. The problem is when the fear is excessive and misguided based on false information or beliefs. 'Love' coupled with ignorance and selfishness can be a very dangerous thing as well. Human behaviour is complex and many actions that may be well intentioned can have harmful consequences because they are borne out of ignorance.
Sometimes I feel so frustrated because I feel that I can't hold anyone responsible for their actions because there are so many contributing factors that the action stems from- environment, culture, ignorance etc. I do believe that people have power to be more than just a product of their environment though. This can only happen when they realise their own role in their life and take control of their existance. This takes a lot of courage, strength and knowledge.
I will share a story that always makes me happy- One of my friend's flatmates used to be an ice addict. He and his sister lost their mother when they were younger than 5. Their father took not interest in their lives and was not in the picture. They were raised by the grandmother who was alcoholic and abusive. They witnessed ridiculous amounts of drug abuse, violence and often went without food, love or care. They hardly ever went to school and failed to complete up to a junior high level. Never worked a honest job. Collected goverment assistance and spent days glued to the TV. They both became involved in the criminal world, stole, bashed, sold drugs and perpetrated the cycle of abuse onto others. Eventually, when this guy was 26, he started getting sick of himself and wanted to get out of the criminal world he was involved. He said that he had felt like he needed those people but he was really more afraid of leaving them than anything else. He went to a bookshop and bought a self help book based on buddhist principles. He read the whole thing with difficulty- in all truth this guy was very poorly educated, not intelligent or intellectually inclined. He was ridiculed by everyone in his life for reading some lame book and was threatened for not partcipating in criminal activities by the group. Upon finishing the book he never used ice again, got a job, saved some money, moved location, got a better job, found a home and put his past behind him. He is still a bogan - but he lives a good life now, and he is happy. He still has contact with his sister and she is in the same place as when he left, but she is considering moving as well. Most people that meet him just assume he is dumb and are disrespectful towards him- he talks in swears and slang, is very innappropriate and uncouth sometimes, smells, has bad teeth. But this guy is amazing! All this from a book! He chose to leave his life even though he was afraid, he found the tool- his book- and educated himself and had the courage and strength of mind to change his path. Hearing his story was such an inspiration to me. If someone had asked me is such a change was possible for him I would have assumed probably not and Im so happy to be proven wrong.
I think that fear, ignorance and laziness are all related and equally implicated in 'evil'. Convenience is responsible for much of the destruction in the world.
I dont know about the 'evil' of murdering random people, I think a part of that comes from culture, environment and individual choice but then there are factors such as psychological disorders. The human brain is a fragile piece of organic equipment. There are things that can go wrong during development and because of damage throughout the lifespan. The brain has localised regions that perform certain functions. All these functions are interdependant and work together, but damage in a critical area can have horrific consequences on someone's personality and behaviour. Sometimes the damage can be fixed if the brain than relocate a particular function to a different region but this is not always possible and not without unintended consequences and significant effort on part of the individual. Retraining a brain is hard work.
Many serial killers are psychopaths who suffer from anti-social personality disorder. They do not have the capacity to empathise. This is very tragic and painful thing- for the particular individual and his/her victims. People with anti-social personality are not necessarily 'born that way' and it is possible that their maladaptive and dangerous behaviour may be a result of ignorance, lack of guidance and support as well as fear. It is also possible that these people can live productive lives with out harming anybody. Unfortunately the behaviours associated with anti-social personality disorder are nutured, rewarded and even praised in competitive environements such as war, aggressive sports, corrupt leadership and capitalism.