INFJ vs. INFP: My/Your journey to accuracy! | INFJ Forum

INFJ vs. INFP: My/Your journey to accuracy!

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  1. Hinsoog

    Hinsoog Community Member

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    So the context is already clear for many of us, there are a lot us who are genuine INFXs who are split on whether or not we share INFJ patterns or INFP patterns. It doesn't seem like it shoud be hard to discern from the surface, but I am now accutely aware of the once almost paradoxiacal source of confusion for me, and I suspect it's the same for many of us. I want to encourage people to post up how they have come to be certain of their type as well. Hopefully my story will resonate with a few people in a way that will help them dig up their true type. Stick with me through this and I think that you will agree that this is valuable, and does delve into the sources of the problem...

    First off, I am indeed an INFP, and I am completely sure of that now in a thorough way, and that is a large reason for this study. Now, when I was younger and new to MBTI, I discovered that I was an INFP and was of course blown away at the power of my new found tool. As a very thougtful teenager before I discovered MBTI, I take pride in knowing that I had my own fledgling awareness of serious differences between people that I was always trying to articulate for myself. So, it became part of my eyes, because, in a lot of ways, it was already part of my eyes. So, without getting too nitty gritty at that point, I took what I found that was valuable in the system and ran with it. It was always so useful to have that construct, fully equipped and ready with the wonderful language that came along with it!

    Then later, as time passed I knew that if it was going to be putting so much time and weight into it, then I need to start to explore it much deeper. And that's when I started digging much deeper into the functions themselves and their order. So it's easier to start general. I am a person who identifies strongly with my type as something that is perfectly thoughtful, and perfectly sensitive(these values perhaps placed on my shoulders by Fi). I would, almost as though I was hooking it up to my pride, idealize my type even. So, without having seen it quite as clearly as I do now, I started seeing things in the INFJ that I identified with. Suddenly that "J" seemed to represent the FIERCE perfectionist in me when it was really Fi, the dominant function of an INFP. This is also following a time when I met a very unstable INFP who was far more wild and adventurous than myself. Soon, the "spontaneous", less scheduled, more opportunity-probing parts of me had less weight than this part huge burning part of me that didn't value the sloppiness that I had seen in this other INFP(and a couple of INFPs to follow). All of the sudden, the INFP type seemed like a type too emotional and too sloppy to be given to the sort of perfect thoughtfulness that I represented. It was always so sooo important to me that the clarity and integrity of my thoughts were not sullied in any way. This was idealized ferverishly by Fi. This responsible sort of thinking started to give weight to that "responsible" and attractive-looking J. Afterall, even though "scheduling" as a comfortable trait was always so unrelatable for me, there were a LOT of things I did identify with. I am always so conscious of time, am a perfectionist on a disturbing level with many things, I would SCHEDULE my friends a consistent time to do stuff with me(this was so they didn't take TOO much of my time), and could never really relate to the sort of spontaneity that other Ps seemed to just drip. So I had my little list, and with those things in mind, I had found that Ni was the INFJ dominant trait, and Fi was the INFP dominant trait. This seemed resonated with my unstoppable bent on deep DEEP thinking and a need to have clarity and integrity in my thoughts. I thought, perhaps it's this Fi that is making these INFPs seem soooo irresponsible... I could not tolerate the thought that "feeling" was compromising the depths of my thoughts... I'll explain.

    So this became especially complicated to discern because of the language of Ni vs. Ne. You see, in my journaling, well before I was into the language of the functions, I would write feverishly about "perspectives" and actually have several entries where I harped on this general idea that "everying connects to everything." I would get so excited about linking perspectives together and would be filled with pride to basically feel like I was seeing through ALL perspectives. You can find language to make this sound like Ni or Ne. I am a thinker, and these profound thought-journeys were always the pinnacle of my experience, and I was always sooo EXCITED to articulate them to myself and to others!!. That writing there really sort of represents a huge part of why I felt that my dominant function had to be Ni, when it was what I felt I held most dear to me, and was unstoppably concerned with the clarity of it all. Ne does seem to be a fluency for exposing depth and asking suggesting that implies awareness and exploring of the various sources of possible answers..... Those ideas mostly support this to be Ne, and it is my face to the world being my "expressed" function(introverts' auxilary function is extraverted), and believe me, it really is my face to the world. I think the expressed nature of Ne, and a lust an INFP has to express big abstract ideas with such haunting suggestiveness is what makes them/me seem so "weird", and ultimately, take a lot of pride in that "weirdness". It seems like INFJs largely don't pride themselves in the "weird" that you get when you are huge into Ne... But, I just couldn't shake that Ni must be my dominant, because how UNDIPENDABLE Fi MUST be... All of this sense of concern and digging around myself for the valuable things that I identify with and the "direction" I'm going turns out to be the strong conviction of Fi... Sure I'm thoughtful, and that "concern" and thoughtfulness represents something healthy and good sniffed out by the cynical endless sea of self-exploring that is Fi, with byproducts of being aware of other's "direction", value, and source of "ego".

    So then there was the way I justified Fe. I always did take care of people's thoughts in the way that Fe seems to. I self-disclose myself wildly, and I work myself up in expressing strong opinions like you would notice an ESFJ doing(they are dominant Fe). It seemed so perfect, because I was always so accutely aware of the egos of the people around me, and I tailored all of my thoughts for them to react to them in predictable ways. I would even use it to sort of stirr people toward ideas that I would want them to confront in the way that I was. It always seemed so much like taking care of their feelings, when I was sort of cradling their perspetive into an idea I was getting them to approach. I will even often feel kind of mischievous, and sort of provoke parts of their perspectivs that I was aware of out of them, so that I could laugh raciously and start sort of ping-ponging back and forth about it with them. In fact this was not Fe, it was the Ne of a person inflicted with a deep carefulness brought on by Fi.

    So then there is the "leadership" question as mapped out on INFJorINFP.com . INFJs are supposed to be more "directing" and INFPs are supposed to be "informing". The idea is that INFJs can basically feel comfortable delegating when it makes sense to. So, I'll take a good example presented by Vicki Joe(the author of that site): When a light turns green, a directing type will say "go" while the inclinination of an informing type will be to say "the light is green". Always, an informer will want to bring about action naturally in the person by informing them, and a director will have less a problem being, well, direct, and delegating. For me, I am CLEARLY an informing type. I am never direct with people, there is always a layer of "padding" always. Besides being a student of psychology and Japanese, I am part of a management team at a videogame store, and I just do not delegate directly. Even there, I merely equip people with the information they need to be sucessful and show them why they should form certain habits, and then hope wildly that I can inspire those good actions without pressing, or else I'm in BIG trouble.

    So the next thing that complicates this question with leadership that gave me hope in being an INFJ was this idea that INFJs are map-makers and INFPs were behind-the-scenes leaders. The INFJs are about ANTICIPATING and then forming a plan to meet those goals with that bent on anticipating, and INFPs are about basically about sort of coralling the team's perspective together and motivating them in whatever area "behind-the-scenes". For me, anticipating was always such a big part of my persuasion. Like any INFJ, I could talk myself out of anything for problems I was anticipating, and when forming plans and equipping coworkers, it could be argued that I was mapping out a course of action by sort of accounting for expected future problems. So, the idea is that INFPs sort of integrate ideas together a lot, and it's part of their very leadership. I have people tell me regularly that I can never give a simple ANSWER, it is always about consolidating pieces of information wildly until the person is back to demanding an answer. This is very much INFP.

    The fact is, my bent on informing and sort of consolidating and integrating important information far outweighs the passing resemblance of "map-making" that I have... I caught myself doing the INFP thing recently, when a couple of co-managers were going at it, deep into conflict, and coming to me separately and alone to make sense of it, where at that point, I did sort of baby them into the other person's perspective to inspire that feeling of common ground, which motivated both of them to sort of listen to eachother and try to be tolerant once again... The usefulness of my "behind-the-scenes" leadership could not be any more overt.

    So then there is making peace with Fi... Fi is a tricky thing, and it's obviously not readily relatable even for a genuine INFP. Some of what I have to say may not be exactly related to Fi, but you may get a sense that Fi is the feeling of weight and depth behind the wild rambling of an INFP that they think should be apparent, and why INFPs get disinterested with details irrelevant to the weightiness of the true depth of a person or idea. To say that a type is always digging into themselves and how they "feel" to decide the "value" of something is not a pretty idea for a a couple of reasons. To say it is contributing to a deep sense of "identity" doesn't help either. It even seems offensive, because it should be about the validity of the thoughts that INFPs have so dear to them. How can someone who prides themselves in bounding about perspectives with ease and then helping others to do so to approach ideas more idealisticly be taken seriously with such a sloshy-sounding function? It even comes accross as self-centered in many people's perspective of it. My explanation for this is that when an INFP is sort of talking about themselves again within the context of a discussion, it's as though I expect the way I have figured myself out to map to the other person in an abstract way, which, honstly, the connection can always be made. Well, after a lot of digging around, I have my own description of Fi as I relate to it. Fi is a judging/deciding function, and it is the dominant function of an INFP, it's just an inward-facing one. Fi is a particularly powerful deciding function, and it has been said that INFPs may actually be the most judgemental of all of the types for the strength of their Fi... In some circles, it would actually make sense to call INFPs the Js and INFJs the Ps, because the INFPs dominant function being Fi. Which actually makes a lot of sense for why a person who is INFP, with this weighty and thick deciding function with huge demands of their identity, would feel like a J, because of the sort of perfectionism that Fi sort of demands of the INFP to identify with that thing that they find valuable. The "identity" and "value" that the Fi represents and seeks is described as an endless ocean with convictions that are not necessarily clear and easily articulated.

    For me, the very quest for accuracy is met with a sort of deep weightiness that is hinted at by Fi. I know that ideas are valuable for their ability to get at a deeper meaning, and that deeper meaning is defined with great weight by the convictions of value inherent in the "feelings" of Fi. It is a sea of a sense of value that I am always scanning for in the masses of ideas so liberally layed out before me. It is about scanning those perspectives, and noticing parts of them that offend that sense of value, and then needing to sort of TEAR through them to figure out exactly why... I AM judgemental, and regularly I will have to sort of calm my need to condemn that ill-willed and "animal" sense I get from people's attitudes and how they reinforce their "ego". This sort of heightened sense of "will" and "direction" in the perspectives and attitudes of those around me is profoundly loud, and isn't one I articulate readily. It's easy to imagine that this is like Ni and has startling parallels in the weighty and almost "psychic" perspectives they conjure up. Fi works quickly, and is piercingly cynical for the speed that it wants to sort of fire forth the INFP into a particular direction about an idea or person, and from their the INFP bounces off the walls excitedly articulating big ideas and helping people to approach them.

    To me, Fi had appeared to represent a "perceptiveness" in that it sniffs out people's "direction" as I describe it, and also the way their ego is. I can smell ego, and how a person is saying what they are saying often directly because it. This "direction" that a person is going is what I try to impossibility explain to them and to others. That "direction" is something that I believe is conjured up by Fi teamed with Ne. Fi enables that sort of exploring of my own value and way I reinforce my own ego, and from their I find many ways to map that to other people. There are very bad directions that people take, and I can just feel them, and have to hold my self back from condemning people for them. I sniff it out in part by being very aware of how someone is handling the general idea of "ego". People are always reinforcing their ego in some fashion, and I can sense their "direction" quickly in how they sort of go about that, surely amoung many other things just as difficult to articulate. Perhaps it is the way that Fi does cause an INFP to dig within their sense of self to find meaning do I come to see "ego" and "direction" with psychic clarity, because of how I witness constantly the way that I manage my own, and with conviction that it is in a GOOD direction. I imagine that the weighty and perceptive way that an INFP is about their own ego, their sense of self, is why they are so ready to approach others to discover how they seem to be holding themselves up... To be a healthy, well-adjusted, and effective INFP, is to have a very flexible ego in order to battle the convictions, directions, and egos of other types. So anyway, Fi is about smelling value, and not necessarily about being emotional, or having perspectives sullied by emotion. An INFP sees that perspective itself IS driven by the various values people hold, directions they are going, or way they are handling their ego.

    So, in the end, it was as I had feared, there were things about my Fi that were disrupting the accuracy of deciding my type because of the boggling weight I placed on certain things, but it was not like I expected. The integrity of my thoughts weren't necessarily compromised when the very depth and value of the thoughts themselves could not be decided and applied by anything less than Fi...

    Besides, I am a percieving type, I can hardly read through an article without skipping around to different paragraphs on impulse! I try hard to make my schedule as open as I can to avoid a confined feeling, and so I can explore things as freely as I want to. I was always suspicious that stucture, as it worked for SJs, was different for intuitive types who were judging. I think that I have sort of taken it upon myself to begin to have a dependable order amoungst a depth-inspecting chaotic mind. It has been important to me to have physical things in my life that I could deem perfect, and organize my various collections meticulously. I even always had that sort of concern and "safeness" that many SJs seem to drip, but in fact it just isn't about whether I am a J, and complicated by the weight of the judging function of Fi.
     
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    #1 Hinsoog, Jul 22, 2009
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  2. OP
    Hinsoog

    Hinsoog Community Member

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    So, the rest of it maybe isn't as loud an example as the way that little story panned out, but there is indeed a lot of other things. Like INFPs having this sort of bent to be drawn to dark and morbid thoughts and ideas. I relate to this. I think it has a lot to do with the I, as an INFP, searches myself so thoroughly and cynically, to find that "good" direction, that I sort of sniff out the more menacing and ugly parts, and sort of need to infuse these parts, or my awareness of them, with pride at various junctures. So, if I look at my friends and curl my face into a haunting and menacing gesture, it's to suggest that I am aware of the haunting, sordid, and menacing parts of all of us. This smells thickly of Fi to Ne.
     
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    #2 Hinsoog, Jul 22, 2009
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  3. AUM

    AUM The Romantic Scientist

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    If your INFP type is accurate, then you're making me doubt my own type. Everything you described resembled most of my thoughts too.... PLEASE NOT AGAIN!!Lol , i will do more research on it then.
     
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    Hinsoog

    Hinsoog Community Member

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    Heh, I can relate to that... And I'll take this is an opportunity to flesh out more of the trouble areas. There are some things that make it difficult to swallow. I want to quote a post I found from Satya:
    This: "I will only tolerate those who tolerate me because only those who can tolerate me are worthy of my tolerance." This seems like it would be nearly impossible for an INFP to accept. Afterall, myself as an INFP, I take a lot of abuse for the sake of supporting the various angles on ideas I know to be most valuable, for more responsible attitudes, for the defense of the more downtrodden, and for various forms of idealism in general. Though, of course, being a well-adjusted INFP, I know that when some people are doing everything they can to try and rip my ways apart, it is often still clear that I have their ear and cooperation still, and so I continue on in defense of a better idea knowing that they are not an unnacceptable sort of closed and intolerant.

    But, in spite of how well I take on resistence, it's always amidst what I sense to be a tolerance, especially knowing that they are at least open enough to be still be arguing and in a dialogue that has hints of cooperation. I have noticed that I often take an attitude, that if someone is completely closed off or intolerant of something that didn't deserve that intolerance, I will regard it as a sort of "filter". For people to be a certain kind of "closed" and intolerant, I will condemn them readily as if they have failed a VERY important test....
     
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    #4 Hinsoog, Jul 23, 2009
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    Hinsoog

    Hinsoog Community Member

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    By the way, if anyone reads this and has an argument that this all sounds very INFJ, I'd love to hear it(and of course anyone's ideas on their journey to accuracy). I am certain that I am an INFP, but I can think of why I would sound like an INFJ. Afterall, the self-transformative, explorative, and perspective-scaling ways of Ni are relatable for me and I suspect many other INFPs, and then it's not hard to imagine that possibly just being excitedly communicated through the sensitive, decisive, and opinionated Fe. I am sure of my INFP functions now, but it is still pretty interesting to explore how that was difficult to discern.
     
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  6. Wyote

    Wyote Dad of the Ded
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    This has also been good in further solidifying my INFJness heh. I do feel P-ish frequently, but it is not my natural way.

    I plan, direct, and I do bask in the anticipation of it all.
     
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    #6 Wyote, Jul 26, 2009
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  7. Horsehop

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    Totally unrelated to your post, but I'm going to write it down before I forget it.

    Am I ENFP or INFP? As an INFP, I know my mind can be fairly closed off; yet I identify with being "suckered" quite frequently as an ENFP. Additionally, which is more dominant? Ne or Fi? I'll maybe edit this later if I remember what I was trying to say, but I had it neat enough in my head to instantly forget it :p

    At any rate, even if I can't remember waht the original niggle between XNFPs was, I was getting to this: I had a brainwave to stop juggling the two, trying to find an answer, and instead move elsewhere. That lead me to read up on INFJ. I realise the reason my mind can be blocked off is because what I talk to during communication is the little streaks, sparks, and whizzy spinny things that thoughts passing through my mind radiate. One of my most consistent problems in communication (that I'm aware of. There are probably a lot more, like my vocabulary (which broke the WAIS :D)) is that I tend to want to just throw out vast quantities of unfiltered, unstructured information, and have the other person do the work of figuring out how to mediate between that and what they're saying.

    As an example, I was recently trying (and obviously failing :p) to discuss my IEE typing with another IEE. On Planet HoHo, the conversation was panning out something like this:
    IEE: "Here are my observations."
    HoHo: "Cool. I think you're not operating with enough information though. Here's some more!"

    On her planet, it was working out something like this:
    IEE: "Well, I don't really want to talk about it, because I haven't observed enough yet, but you did ask..."
    HoHo: "I think you're wrong. Here's what I think. It's right. Also, I'm a passive-aggressive little weasel."
    IEE: "*ragequit*"

    It then degenerated into me shutting down even more (possibly the only downside of being a Nine) and her attempting to psychoanalyse me. Anecdote over :p (Later thought: substitute "Andromedans" for "IEE" and "Earthlings" for "HoHo", and we have another cool entry for Exit Mundi!)

    Now for your post!

    I'll address how I view J: balancing the need for stockpiling preparations with taking and directing action (this has only become an "issue" because I find myself in the holy grail of human happiness, a Nine couple, and one of us unfortunately needs to wear the pants; luckily since Socionics works, this works well for my Extraverted, Ethical self :p). Forming goals and making sure they're hit; preferably not "eventually" (where circumstances permit). Generally just being the action man, even if the two of us are the most annoyingly feckless and drifty people you'll ever meet :p

    Additionally, I identify with "setting a goal and working backwards". Recently (and ok, I was sort of panicking here, so try not to cringe as you read it :p), I had goal: "pursue life with my Nine". I can't remember what my reasoning for thinking the plan was needed was, but I had "if I can't get into psych, go gold collar, get group housing, get involved with amateur theatre/radio stations and leverage a sustainable career". Then there was juggling that with how to fix things up with her ex, or if I even should, seeing as how she was fairly ambivalent about said situation herself, and where I'd go or what I'd do if said ex was un-exified, or if we didn't really work out. Whew.

    Amusingly, it hadn't occurred to me to just hop around in colleges, since she could stay with her mother, and we could have a halfway normal relationship. Then I could bail out back to where I'd be going if we weren't madly in love, best friends, and wickedly compatible 8] (off in another state).

    That's my sort of thinking process. Goals? Obstacles? Solutions? I can also fall prey to obsessively planning, and then getting bored with actually doing anything, because suddenly I've had all the thrill of discovery in my own mind :p

    I also think I can basically be a bit impulsive, since the way I see the world makes me tentative about acting without having "enough" information. Kickstarting things and diving right in is a good way to stir the winds a bit and throw more things to decide upon up in the air. Plus, random adventures can be fun, and fun feels nice, so I indulge in it :p

    Random tangents aside (Nine ftmfw :D), you identify with clarity and depth of thought strongly. In my case, I value not being a hypocrite. I feel free to let my mind be as fuzzy and wooly as the hair sitting outside it. I'm proud of how neatly groomed the bits I've set a brush to are, but the activity in my head is probably not rigidly structured at all. Any sort of structure is more of a thematic rhythm that pops out, moreso when I'm relaxed.

    Against Judging is possibly that I avoid schedules like the plague. MY confidence in facing the world is based entirely off my currently physical state (or negligence thereof in the face of excitement, inspiration, or a need to just be an oddball for laughs). Nothing feels worse than having to trundle off to an appointment when you're feeling like falling asleep where you stand. As I said earlier, though, due to my Niney, I'm having to hold myself to more obvious decisiveness.

    From what I understand, Fi is used to ascertain what people need "from their perspective". When I'm working inside someone's mind, I suppose I take a more gestalt approach: "What are you feeling? What experiences led you to feel this? What can you do about it?" One idea I've picked up from nonviolent communication is that it's a good idea to take a stab at it yourself, as this opens them up to clarify, expand, or correct. It takes being a bit pushy before you can walk hand in hand. In other words, what you see as a trajectory, I understand I view as a sum; generally one that's balanced to the negative. I have less clear a picture of where my Niney is heading than I do a vision for where that should be, ie, happiness and ease. Preferably with me :p

    Additionally, and I'm not sure if this is for/against Ne, my intellectual approach could best be described as "Approximate, appropriate, assimilate." I identify with "everything can have an answer", but once I've boiled the "everything" down into something that I can use, I toss it. Rather than being a holistic thinker seeking the connections between everything, I'd say I'm always at risk of getting caught in the contrasts between things. Assuming my mind is like a pool of oil or lead sulfate (if you're feeling really fancy ;)), and thus always spreading and assimilating, I have a tendency to dip into cracks and become incredibly, well, stuck. I contrast and get stuck in nuiances that I can't objectively weigh the things agains the other.

    Random aside: GIGANTIC POST IS PRETTY BIG, GUYS. There goes my evening :p I'll try to keep soldiering on, though.

    How I understand Fe is that my Extravert face is one of warmth, albeit warmth coming from a politely distanced fireplace :p I play up me crazyface at school largely because that's what's expected, and gives me freedom to be weird, but in an endearingly eccentric way. Elsewhere, to my detriment, I tend to be "affably quiet" (which is a polite way of saying "disengaged stoner" :p)

    On that, I asked my mother about what my most observable trait was. "Abstract? No, I'd say you're quite concrete and practical, though I agree you seem to be more dreamy than openly empathetic." These are pretty cruddy definitions of FJ and NP, though, so I don't want to use that as an example or conclusive evidence or anything :p

    As for directive or informative, I think directive is a good fit, but I can see informative. There's even been an ugly fight based around me actually being too pushy in dealing with one of my friends. There was mutual interest between himself and a girl, and he'd been stalling for months or something. When he didn't do as I said (because I knew he was going to get all screwed up over what was inevitably going to happen--and lo and behold, my predictions came true), I went and pushed things by telling the girl for him. That didn't end well :p

    That said, I'm more likely to give advice flavoured with "I think you should probably" or "Have you tried?" My natural temptation is to flee to the Enneagram to field this one (it's a major epidemic in the socionics community I'm a part of, and I've gone and caught it myself). I'll definitely have to think about this one more, though. As you said, it's one of those obnoxiously tricky cracks that tends to make me get stuck :p

    Possibly in favour of INFJ is that, while I'm apt at dealing with groups by amalgamating the various ideas into some hideous chimera, I much prefer one-on-one and directing people thus. In various projects that I've never bothered to complete, I will confess to viewing people as contributing resources. This is probably why most of my projects fail, since I lose interest or can't track down said resource-providers. My follow-through is abysmal :p (50 characters in WoW and counting, probably two thirds are under level 30).

    I just read what you said about anticipation being a way of integrating lots of information. Yes, I'm definitely guilty of the dreaded Infodump. Our posts are living monuments to that :p

    Anyway, that's about my limit of responding to your post. I'm going to go off and acquaint myself with the functions and report back, hopefully with some usable information :p

    And you're right, reading your posts is like reading myself typing :p Funky!

    EDIT

    Sorry, had word wrap on :p

    MORE EDIT

    I took the cognitiveprocesses test. I scored highly on Ne and Ni and Fe and Fi, and middlingly on Ti and Se. Si and Te were negligible, and I confess that they're both things I'm really, really bad at :p

    I actually scored on Ni over Ne, but I think that's because of misunderstanding the questions (which are laden with almost impenetrable jargon). Fi > Ni > Ne > Fe. Additionally it's fun to note that I have basically even development between simple and advanced usage of all of those functions.

    http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/jft.htm <- useful, maybe
    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/ <- the site
    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/develop_old.html <- the test

    On Ne and Ni:

    Even if I do have my brilliant *click* moments (like what happened as I was reading about the functions to produce this post :p), it's because something entered my awareness, and crystallized the otherwise Niney fog of hazy mist and mystery (not saying it's related to Nines, but 'Niney' is my new favourite word :p). My predictions and images of the future are always produced by something that was or is happening. Like my Niney saying "hey" instead of "hey :)". That's an instant red flag, but it's a red flag that pops up after I notice something. I understand that Ni has these things bubbling up out of nowhere--hence the introversion.

    I think that's basically the limit of my concentration (three hours or something?) I dunno if any of this helps. Any questions, ask :p

    I'll go through and try and Ne my way out of any contradictions I made later. Maybe :p

    MORE EDIT

    One thing you will start noticing about IEEs, assuming you're looking for them of course, is that we have this style of thinking not unlike a Katamari.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/infj.html
    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/infp.html

    INFJs have access to Fe: "Connecting and considering others and the group" While empathy (and in my case, overidentifying with the other person to the degree of being unable to unmix my experiences and emotions from theirs (again: Nines :p)) is a big part of an INFP (I think), there's less of a group focus. I'm not sure what "group" or "group focus" means, so if an INFJ could pop in and clean up my jargon-riddled mess, it'd be much appreciated. Or anyone who knows what Fe is :p Also, I read somewhere that INFPs can have difficulty with groups because each individual requires a different mode of interaction. The only solution is to switch off, or alternately inhabit !!VAPID SOCIALITE MODE!! (not that there's anything wrong with vapid socialites :p)

    I suppose I also imagine that the INFJ is the necromancer dude, waving their arms around, sending waves of the undead to devour living civilisation, while the INFP is the dude in the floating fortress, sipping on lemon, lime & bitters, striking off "pit the Necromancer King against the Western Rebel Alliance" and smiling to themselves. And I'm one of the clouds, drifting along, watching the show :3

    A couple of aspects of my behaviour betray my dominant Fi. I think it would be fair to say that INFPs are living in a state where there's a big F5 hanging over their identities. In my case, bits of the above post were attempts at contradicting you, just because I thought I was INFJ. I wasn't lying, I was just operating on my own idea of the truth :p Also, that doesn't invalidate anything I've said. I took an escape clause by sidestepping a lot of the painful nuances my Ne seems to be able to find. I believe this is what I mean when I say my mind tends to fall into nooks and crannies: I inherently see lots of microscopic subtleties everywhere.

    Also, on Ne. I've read that Ne seeks things to be an integrated whole. That's how I see things to begin with, but then I see start seeing contrasts, and bounce down between those, much like a ball rolling around a funnel. The most common trap of this nature is "in some situations, foo holds; but in others, bar does. Which one works in general? *implodes*"

    More functions to think about...

    Se is "immediate reations to a context". I like thinking about this from a Socionics perspective (as I think a lot of INFPs are going to turn out to be fellow IEEs, though of course there's no neat way to map the types of the two systems). I'll be using the Socionics terms here, so if I use some funky definition of Ne or something, it's because I'm not using the Myers-Briggs functions. That I'm an idiot doesn't factor in this once :p

    As I said in my Socionics thread, Ne-bases (of which IEEs are a representative) have a tendency to be in their minds. A lot. It's even visible when my body switches off and I sink back into my imagination. In Myers-Briggs, Se is being fully drawn into a physical experience. In Socionics, that's Si. For Ne-bases, Si has this amazing ability to switch off the ever-spinning world of Ne. Amazing, because it's a good experience. Really! Every Ne-base comes with some ability to induce this in themselves, but eventually they sink back into Ne. I once went on a two-hour trek to take snaps with my camera. About halfway through I started thinking of going home, getting back online, and talking to one of my friends about going out and taking photos. Oops :p

    Why do I mention this? I would say I value Myers-Briggs Se! I read somewhere that INFJs can sometimes turn into "wannabe SPs", and this is something that initially threw me in favour of INFJ.

    I *think* that's all for now. HoHo, signing out! And sorry if I'm derailing your thread!

    MORE EDIT again

    Not that I'm definitively one way or the other... just yet. That in of itself could well be your Ne and Fi that you mentioned. Call it an interesting exercise in externalising thinking processes. Bonus points if I *do* turn out INFJ.
     
    #7 Horsehop, Aug 7, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  8. OP
    Hinsoog

    Hinsoog Community Member

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    Good sir, yours is a communication I really appreciate. Before I begin, let me tell you that your sort of intuition is the kind that is the most vibrant and relatble for me, and it's not a kind that you can really expect to find. I just want to say I feel a sense of clarity on this that I now will have to try to get a comforable grip on enough to communicate properly, so I hope you will have patience with me as this fleshes out into a more complete picture...

    I can see parts of myself in you in a large way, and it may or may not only be the Ne. I have to say, it almost looks like you've set up a puzzle and layed out the pieces while already basically knowing what the picture is, and, being a fellow Ne user, our puzzle's pieces are a little wobbly, but still. I want to emphasize that I in no way want to downplay how much I relate to you, and in a jarring way, but, long story short, I'm starting to think that there is the possibility that you are an ENFP, even with all of your comments about socializing in mind(I'll launch into fussy counter-examples later). You have such a wild breadth of ideas that you are springing around confidentely at all times, and the confidence at which you use and display your Ne and how liberally you do so just screams it to me.

    I have thought of a test.......It has occured to me that this could end up feeling a bit... offputting... But it's out of a VERY cooperative effort. So please bear with me. Shun those dissillusioned feelings for a bit. I am going to say something that would cause a pretty strong stir in me in one direction(a decidely INFP one), and I think in an ENFP, the stirring would be in a whole other direction....... So here it is: When I read your writing Horsehop, it causes me to feel insecure. It's like I'm looking at someone I really relate to, and that they roughly have my same tools, but at the same time, it's as though they have some kind of key... It's as though they are flaunting a key to enter a space that I simply do not have access to. I covet that space, and see why they would enter it, but I myself can not cannot maintain view of the entrance, or simply do not have the key to enter... You seem to be fluent with my tools, and seem to be wielding some that are alien to me. Or, perhaps I just cannot throw mine down in defeat...

    So, before you think I'm crazy or something, know that I'm much too mature to really enter the insecure space that I have produced with that picture. I have simply grown too much. Though it is the way an ENFP of my past had made me feel, and I suppose I'm still not immune to that sort of pitifullness. But, depending on how it provokes you, I think could be a dependable sign. You actually have possibly already displayed this a little, but, as an INFP, if someone wrote something like that to me, I would be shaken hard and would want to enter a completely sober and rational space to show them that they are NOT missing ANYTHING, and that everyone has the tools available to them to enter a complete space that also isn't missing anything. I would strip myself down to it's horrible small basic pieces to reveal a less intimidating picture and show them the steps I've had to take to realize and ensure my own confidence. With ENFPs, I suspect that while they do not intend harm on anyone, this is the kind of thing that they feed on and spurrs them on wildly, to then know that they are the sage they were trying to display and then to be the champions of their great quest that they know their breadth of tools will back up.

    So here's the thing, I think that you have sort of demonstrated that section of yourself that wants to remain congruent, that has that anchoring sober space that worries immensly about the "validation" of others, coming back to that basic humbled space that is the weight of Fi. More on that later...

    I think that Ne just keeps getting more and more excited be certain interactions, and just keeps flying toward that juicy intuition meat that they see in their minds, and know that others should value and be inspired by that bright and engaging vision. I relate to it as an INFP with HUGE Ne. But I think that Fi has this HUGE need to make myself and others feel "validated"(unless of course I've a sense of a person that does not deserve that respect because of some glaring ill-will). That sense for "validation" congruent with good directions and good-will I think cannot be overestimated...

    So I want to focus in on some things you said to get deeper into a point I'm trying to nail:

    So with saying that I believe that you have eyed something that I believe underlied my concern for the entire duration of my writing of those ideas, and I suspect that you are somewhat aware of it. It's what "hypocracy" represents that is horrifying and keeps me never far off from completely sobering myself to decide that something just isn't consistent. I had effectively related strongly with the merrits of certain types to the point where I was identifying with them. It's not to say that those merrits aren't a part of me, but it does bother me to know that my thoughts are connected to my identity and ego in a way to obscure the actual thoughts and I could produce anything that ever seemed hypocritical. I think that Fi of the INFP and of the ENFP keeps us genuine, and has a weight to it to anchor us down from the sky-surfing of Ne...

    I can see it in your writing. You are so proud of your tools and display them confidently, but also seem to have that mind to come back down and sort of fuss over that weighty feeling that needs whatever the Fi values, and will search itself until we know we can rightfully at least feel comfortable. Maybe I'm crazy in thinking that that mess of an idea is Fi, but I think it is.

    Here's the thing, as an INFP who knows the pride to be had in the skillful display of Ne, it does bother me to admit to myself that the weight and nature of Fi does keep me from fully realizing the uninhibited full-flight of Ne... And I think that's where ENFPs come in... But, you have that sort of sobering concern that I relate to. So either you are an ENFP, of just a really fucking smart INFP. Hahaha! I don't mean to say that in a dividing way whatsoever. Hahaha! In fact, I doubt an ENFP would settle down and devote that much time as you did to excite themselves into entering these ideas with an INFP. But, of course, maybe you are just a really fucking smart ENFP. Hahaha!

    As for the Enneagram, I am probably not as fluent as you are there, but fluent enough to know that I am a type five with a four wing(I suspect that many enneagram folks despise the existence of wings) and not the other way around. And I also know enough to be a little surprised that you are a nine, but I have a lot to learn. You seem like me in that you are dangerously close to being almost entirely cerebral, and that just seems so five. I actually have enneagram books on my shelf waiting for me to invest time into them.

    Yes, I can definately relate to this, HARD. If I map out the fruitfullness of everything in my mind, and then explore those big viewing moments to sort of feel out the all or many of the angles I coud possibly expect, even the negative ones that take some battling, it can get to the point where it's like I have already gotten the meaningful fruit out of it without having to bother with actually experiencing it. I feel like I only need to "understand" something as completely as possible before I'm ready to move on from it... Which actually feels ugly to the point that I have a hard time writing it, that last part, so I know there really is a lot more to it, so I'll just stop that idea there for now.

    So of course, feel free to disagree, but it's clear to me that neither of us is the Fe type. Fe to me is a more tangible and expressed sort of caretaking that has its gives and its takes clear. At no point are you and me showing our "warm fireplace" ways in any natural way like the INFJs. I think that Fi wants to enter a space that can assume cooperation without whatever it is that Fe manages in an expressed way. Fe seems to make itself known with more weight on the warm gestures. But, don't pay too much attention to that if it seems too out-of-touch with what Fe more basically is, because I spend a lot of time with Fe dominant people, and the idea gets bigger and starts mixing together with a mess of other things.

    And with that I think I'm going to chill, because at least at this point, I feel like maybe it's a bit more clear that I may represent a sort of thoughtfullness that you do, even if you are an ENFP. Which by the way, I think that even with a seemingly introverted lifestyle, an ENFP can sort of find tricks to engage the outward-facing stirring and stimulation that Ne demands, which seems like an unfair way to introduce too much convolusion, but I'm having a hard time kicking the possibility that you might be an ENFP, or maybe that you are like me, a confident and comfortably weird INFP and just proudly displaying that Ne to whatever consequence.
     
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    #8 Hinsoog, Aug 8, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
  9. GaiaGraha

    GaiaGraha Community Member

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    [FONT=&quot]One letter changes SO MUCH.
    I mean, sure it is difficult when you just say: "Am I a Judger or Perceiver?" when you are 50/50 on just that part- but that is taking it out of context.
    If you relate it to the 3rd letter you will see if you Extrovert or Introvert your Feelings- which is a really easy way to help decide.
    FJs Extrovert their feelings- so they readily show the emotions that they feel. They are the first to laugh, the first to cry, and have far less emotional control. They also are supposed to have sparkly eyes.
    FPs Introvert their feelings- so they hide their emotions and seem on the outside to be Thinkers- calm and collected. These are the people who seem fine- but on the inside they have a LOT going on.

    This goes into The Functions:
    Your Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, and Inferior.
    [/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]TiNeSiFe - INTP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]NiTeFiSe - INTJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]NeTiFeSi - ENTP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]TeNiSeFi - ENTJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]FiNeSiTe - INFP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]NiFeTiSe - INFJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]NeFiTeSi - ENFP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]FeNiSeTi - ENFJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]TiSeNiFe - ISTP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]SiTeFiNe - ISTJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]SeTiFeNi - ESTP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]TeSiNeFi - ESTJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]FiSeNiTe - ISFP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]SiFeTiNe - ISFJ[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]SeFiTeNi - ESFP[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]FeSiNeTi - ESFJ[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]These are not just random letters- they describe so well how we interact with information and the world.

    INFJ:
    Dominant- Introverted Intuition
    Auxiliary- Extraverted Feeling
    Tertiary- Introverted Thinking
    Inferior- Extroverted Sensing

    INFP:
    Dominant- Introverted Feeling
    Auxiliary- Extroverted Intuition
    Tertiary- Introverted Sensing
    Inferior- Extroverted Thinking
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]ENFP:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Dominant- Extraverted Intuition
    Auxiliary- Introverted Feeling
    Tertiary- Extroverted Thinking
    Inferior- Introverted Sensing
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    So although INFJs and INFPs share 3 of 4 letters- they really aren't very alike at all. They have the same strengths- but they apply them in completely different ways.

    The INFJ first takes knowledge in, processes it, fits it into their knowledge stores. Then the next function comes in and the INFJ can assign a feeling to that information and emotionally react to it.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    The INFP lives first and foremost in their Introverted Feeling world of essence and ideals. Then their Extroverted Intuition greets the world on behalf of that feeling, collecting information.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The ENFP first is constantly scanning their surroundings, seeing things not as they are but as they could be- they see the connections and possibilities. Then from this they draw in feelings. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The important thing is that when the 3 lower functions serve the dominant function it causes problems through very different processes. Although the end result may be somewhat similar, these really are very different people.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Example:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]INFJs and INFPs can both become close-minded about other peoples
     
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  10. GaiaGraha

    GaiaGraha Community Member

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    Oh and I couldn't figure out myself for the longest time- even though I read like 3 books on MBTI and could type anyone.
    The problem was that I thought I was Perceiver for sure- but then none of the Perceiver types really fit me. I thought I was an INF- but I really wasn't an INFP- I'm just not that nice. But then I wasn't an INTP because I am really not a rational person and I hate puzzles.
    But then I got adderol for my horribly bad ADD and I was like "I want to make LISTS!!!!" and I realized I was a Judger and it ALL fit into place. ^_^
    So my suggestion is: Focus more on the OVERALL type and the other methods of typing rather than letter-by-letter if it doesn't work.

    <3 INFJ <3
     
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  11. daydreamer

    daydreamer Permanent Fixture

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    I forget
    http://www.infjorinfp.com/ Here's a website that might help.
     
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  12. bs98r3kjf

    bs98r3kjf Well-known member

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