INFJ & Enneagram
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RetardedMonkey
Community Member
- MBTI
- ENFJ
I'm a balanced 5 female. All the tests I've taken never gave me a wing. 
There was no option on the poll for that one. 
There was no option on the poll for that one. 
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
Sorry, retardedmonkey. I know this poll is kind of sucky. I started it and somehow hit 'submit' before I was able to collect my thoughts and never came back to it. I wanted to know about femininity/masculinity issues and the 4 & 5 INFJ.
On this forum we seem to discuss in great detail male-INFJs and their need to defend their masculinity. Are these 4w3s? Because I would suspect a 4w5 or 5w4 male wouldn't need to as much...although I can certainly see the alpha-male world poking at them for some perceived 'softness.' What about female INFJ 4w5? There's certainly a harder-edge to these women. INFJ 5w4...harder edge or lacking sexuality altogether? From the posts I've checked out, it's not a topic previously discussed.
It seems 'INFJ' is regarded as a very feminine type to most, but to me it seems more like a sexually-ambiguous type. Add INFJ to Enneagram 4 and there seems to be sexual ambiguity everywhere. I can't help but think of the parental orientations of the 4 and being frustrated by both parents...not getting enough of them...them and the child distanced too soon, and the child clawing to find the love of both parents. So the child grows into adulthood, and regardless of sexual preference, seems to attract both men & women.
Okay, here's my mini-profile:
Parents put me on a plane at 1-year-old by myself, and shipped me off across the world to another country to be raised by an assortment of relatives until I was 5. At that time, parents picked me up and we move to the US. Although they never distanced themselves from me in my formative years after that...too late, damage done.
When I was a teenager, just finding my sexuality and sensuality in high school, I remember this chick (ESFJ) starting a rumor about me that I was a lesbian because she couldn't get over the fact that her football-player-blockhead-of-a-boyfriend was attracted to a weirdo like me and I wasn't attracted to him. The bitch made me suffer for it (and I hold her personally responsible for my instant distaste for ESFJs in general.) Anyway, at the time I remembered feeling violated that my sexuality seemed to be the topic of discussion. Other people speculating about my personal business was an invasion of privacy. This made my blood boil. Who were these assholes to tell me who I was and was not? Anyway, that same year, I was also a victim of an attempted rape and was told my 'provocative clothing' was the cause.
The first time I went to college I was there with practically all gay men (studied fashion design). I regularly 'fell in love' with them and enjoyed the club scene at that time, both gay and straight. My wardrobe was crazy and androgynous, and I never thought about dating anyone seriously. My imagination was so powerful and erotic that I felt nothing in real-life could compare. When I made attempts to date the rare straight boy it felt so wrong and uninspired.
In my young-n-nubile 20s, I was very unaware of my tendencies to draw both men and women. I had been hit-on by more couples in my life, and at the time if you asked me, I had nothing to do with it! It was just a fairly common occurrence in my life. Seriously, I never knew what I did to attract some people. When it became too absurd, I finally asked some friends why both men and women believe I'd be attracted to them. The answers I received were a) there's something about me that looks like I would have sex with both a male and female and b) I talk to men and women in exactly same manner.
Still, to this day, I regard myself as weird and awkward, so I had no idea what they were talking about. Especially since love and relationships have eluded me my whole life. When I became more aware, I realized this could certainly be true. After many years of seeking to understand myself in relation to the world, I do make more of an effort to let the male population know that yes I'm attracted to them. I wouldn't be totally honest if I didn't mention I am also attracted to sexual ambiguity. I guess it's one of those cases where like-attracts-like. Although I think I've solved this on my part, it still makes it pretty darn hard to have a relationship with guy who is a bunch of mixed-messages.
Anyway, I'm not as 'girly' as most INFJs would describe themselves. On the surface I am, but with a hard-edge. Everything I like...whether it's film, music, books, fashion...it's definitely flavored with a dash of masculinity, in a similar way that, say, a male-INFJ 4w3, would be seen as effete (therefore homosexual) regardless of his actual sexuality.
So I'm not sure what my point was here, or if I even have a point, just wanted to get a conversation going...
On this forum we seem to discuss in great detail male-INFJs and their need to defend their masculinity. Are these 4w3s? Because I would suspect a 4w5 or 5w4 male wouldn't need to as much...although I can certainly see the alpha-male world poking at them for some perceived 'softness.' What about female INFJ 4w5? There's certainly a harder-edge to these women. INFJ 5w4...harder edge or lacking sexuality altogether? From the posts I've checked out, it's not a topic previously discussed.
It seems 'INFJ' is regarded as a very feminine type to most, but to me it seems more like a sexually-ambiguous type. Add INFJ to Enneagram 4 and there seems to be sexual ambiguity everywhere. I can't help but think of the parental orientations of the 4 and being frustrated by both parents...not getting enough of them...them and the child distanced too soon, and the child clawing to find the love of both parents. So the child grows into adulthood, and regardless of sexual preference, seems to attract both men & women.
Okay, here's my mini-profile:
Parents put me on a plane at 1-year-old by myself, and shipped me off across the world to another country to be raised by an assortment of relatives until I was 5. At that time, parents picked me up and we move to the US. Although they never distanced themselves from me in my formative years after that...too late, damage done.
When I was a teenager, just finding my sexuality and sensuality in high school, I remember this chick (ESFJ) starting a rumor about me that I was a lesbian because she couldn't get over the fact that her football-player-blockhead-of-a-boyfriend was attracted to a weirdo like me and I wasn't attracted to him. The bitch made me suffer for it (and I hold her personally responsible for my instant distaste for ESFJs in general.) Anyway, at the time I remembered feeling violated that my sexuality seemed to be the topic of discussion. Other people speculating about my personal business was an invasion of privacy. This made my blood boil. Who were these assholes to tell me who I was and was not? Anyway, that same year, I was also a victim of an attempted rape and was told my 'provocative clothing' was the cause.
The first time I went to college I was there with practically all gay men (studied fashion design). I regularly 'fell in love' with them and enjoyed the club scene at that time, both gay and straight. My wardrobe was crazy and androgynous, and I never thought about dating anyone seriously. My imagination was so powerful and erotic that I felt nothing in real-life could compare. When I made attempts to date the rare straight boy it felt so wrong and uninspired.
In my young-n-nubile 20s, I was very unaware of my tendencies to draw both men and women. I had been hit-on by more couples in my life, and at the time if you asked me, I had nothing to do with it! It was just a fairly common occurrence in my life. Seriously, I never knew what I did to attract some people. When it became too absurd, I finally asked some friends why both men and women believe I'd be attracted to them. The answers I received were a) there's something about me that looks like I would have sex with both a male and female and b) I talk to men and women in exactly same manner.
Still, to this day, I regard myself as weird and awkward, so I had no idea what they were talking about. Especially since love and relationships have eluded me my whole life. When I became more aware, I realized this could certainly be true. After many years of seeking to understand myself in relation to the world, I do make more of an effort to let the male population know that yes I'm attracted to them. I wouldn't be totally honest if I didn't mention I am also attracted to sexual ambiguity. I guess it's one of those cases where like-attracts-like. Although I think I've solved this on my part, it still makes it pretty darn hard to have a relationship with guy who is a bunch of mixed-messages.
Anyway, I'm not as 'girly' as most INFJs would describe themselves. On the surface I am, but with a hard-edge. Everything I like...whether it's film, music, books, fashion...it's definitely flavored with a dash of masculinity, in a similar way that, say, a male-INFJ 4w3, would be seen as effete (therefore homosexual) regardless of his actual sexuality.
So I'm not sure what my point was here, or if I even have a point, just wanted to get a conversation going...
Nausus
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 1w6
I'm a 9w1, apparently, so i'm not in depth of knowledge about 5w4s or 4w5s.
As for masculinity, I have some. I have always been a bit of a tomboy, and hate most girly-type-things. I'm a bit of a feminist, so I guess I dress in a more boyish fashion is to prove that I can act like a guy, and i'm as good as they are. I don't know whether tomboyish-ness occurs regularly in INFJ females though...
As for masculinity, I have some. I have always been a bit of a tomboy, and hate most girly-type-things. I'm a bit of a feminist, so I guess I dress in a more boyish fashion is to prove that I can act like a guy, and i'm as good as they are. I don't know whether tomboyish-ness occurs regularly in INFJ females though...
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
I can see it happening in a 9/1. Are you a straight female? I'm definitely more of a tomboy, not on the surface...rather in the way I make art...the way I express myself... but in a girly way. Every career/hobby has been male-dominated.
(I should have included a range of types in my makeshift poll. Apologies to the other types. Please speak.)
rainrise
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
i test as 5w4 according to the enneagram. you mention that INFJ women of this type may have a harder edge or lack sexuality all together and i am inclined to follow your train of thought.
in terms of having a "harder edge", i'm not quite sure what you mean by this. what i can say is that i am not as emotionally expressive or expansive when i compare myself to the enneagram 4 model, with wings of either 3 or 5. it does not mean i am less emotionally attune or less empathetic.
4s seem to experience emotions by deriving significant personal meaning from them while as a 5w4, i find myself primarily observing emotions from a more impersonal position. when i feel isolated or rejected i do not tend to emphasize certain individuals who may have brung about these emotions in me, but rather i tend to feel that the outside world is indifferent or to blame.
i can see how it makes general sense to associate Feeling with 4s and Thinking with 5s and 4s are more emotionally comfortable. however, i think it is much more complex than that; not as black and white. certainly there are traits in each that seem more masculine or feminine when measuring them against the overall culture, but on the whole they should not contain gender bias as they illustrate two of nine types that are all supposely equally valid depending on personality (which is not gendered in itself).
therefore, the "harder edge" may manifest in different areas for e.g. the 4w5 or 5w4 female. perhaps the 4w5 exhibits more culturally feminine traits due to their preoccupancy with feeling (less edge). however, the 5w4 may be more analytically detached and less comfortable with open expression of positive feelings. you may then find that they are rather fragile in the wake of emotional expression and not as apt at mastering control when strong ones do arise.
as for sexuality, it may seem like 5s have less due to their more reserved (and perhaps more introverted?) nature. yet, i don't find i lack it. i tend to generally keep it low-key in public and when initially familiarizing to people or a situation. it may seem on the surface that i am not very sexual nor interested. i think that couldn't be further from the truth because sometimes my feelings take on such intensity i have become quite apt at guarding them within so as to not overwhelm others nor myself...but maybe that's more an INFJ trait than a type 5 one.
it's so interesting how you've described your tendencies to draw both men and women. i have the exact opposite problem...certain men think i'm attracted to them when i am not and certain women never think i'm attracted to them even when i am. i've constantly wondered why this was so. i'm not at all 'girly' in the traditional sense, though i do describe myself as feminine.
in terms of having a "harder edge", i'm not quite sure what you mean by this. what i can say is that i am not as emotionally expressive or expansive when i compare myself to the enneagram 4 model, with wings of either 3 or 5. it does not mean i am less emotionally attune or less empathetic.
4s seem to experience emotions by deriving significant personal meaning from them while as a 5w4, i find myself primarily observing emotions from a more impersonal position. when i feel isolated or rejected i do not tend to emphasize certain individuals who may have brung about these emotions in me, but rather i tend to feel that the outside world is indifferent or to blame.
i can see how it makes general sense to associate Feeling with 4s and Thinking with 5s and 4s are more emotionally comfortable. however, i think it is much more complex than that; not as black and white. certainly there are traits in each that seem more masculine or feminine when measuring them against the overall culture, but on the whole they should not contain gender bias as they illustrate two of nine types that are all supposely equally valid depending on personality (which is not gendered in itself).
therefore, the "harder edge" may manifest in different areas for e.g. the 4w5 or 5w4 female. perhaps the 4w5 exhibits more culturally feminine traits due to their preoccupancy with feeling (less edge). however, the 5w4 may be more analytically detached and less comfortable with open expression of positive feelings. you may then find that they are rather fragile in the wake of emotional expression and not as apt at mastering control when strong ones do arise.
as for sexuality, it may seem like 5s have less due to their more reserved (and perhaps more introverted?) nature. yet, i don't find i lack it. i tend to generally keep it low-key in public and when initially familiarizing to people or a situation. it may seem on the surface that i am not very sexual nor interested. i think that couldn't be further from the truth because sometimes my feelings take on such intensity i have become quite apt at guarding them within so as to not overwhelm others nor myself...but maybe that's more an INFJ trait than a type 5 one.
it's so interesting how you've described your tendencies to draw both men and women. i have the exact opposite problem...certain men think i'm attracted to them when i am not and certain women never think i'm attracted to them even when i am. i've constantly wondered why this was so. i'm not at all 'girly' in the traditional sense, though i do describe myself as feminine.
Bored Now
On Holiday
- MBTI
- *blows kiss*
I'm a 5w4, I definitely have a harder edge than most, I think. A bit more detached too. But I look feminine, but there's also something slightly playfully boyish about me too. I like it. I relate more to descriptions of 5w4 than I do being an infj sometimes.
Warrior Therapist
Regular Poster
- MBTI
- INFJ
I'd say I'm a 4w5. I initially saw myself as a 5, but I knew I had the tendencies of a 4. One test showed me my true colors, so to speak, and deep down, I knew that I was more of an artistic and worldview-creating type than a cerebral observer type, though I imagine that I come off as such around other people (being widely known as quiet and a very good student).
- MBTI
- INTP
- Enneagram
- 5
I'm a balanced 5 female. All the tests I've taken never gave me a wing.
Me too (apart from the being female bit)
Balanced 5 with no wings.
Poll needs to be changed
[Edited to give me a penis]
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Nausus
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 1w6
Yes, i'm straight
I just prefer jeans to skirts etc. I despise the fact males think they can dominate everything. Females kick ass too ;D
Eric86
Community Member
- MBTI
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 9w1 sp/so
I've never felt this need....but then again, very little about me, aside from my physical appearance, would be considered masculine, and I have no problem with that, nor has it ever made me feel insecure. I don't like most things that other guys like (Many of the things that I like would probably be considered feminine, or at least the reasoning behind why I like them would be, for the things that wouldn't inherently be considered feminine.), or think even remotely the same as them, so I have a difficult time relating to them at all, even including other male INFJs....I've only ever really been able to relate to female INFJs, and extraordinarily well, I might add. One INFJ girl I know from a different forum and have talked to a lot said this about me, which I found very endearing.
"I feel like I can be a giddy, excited, bubbly school girl around you." I think that describes my interactions with girls pretty well.oh, before I forget to mention it, I'm a 9w1.
I've always been able to relate to girls much, much better in general, and a large majority of the people I've been close to over the years have been girls. It's kinda weird, though...cause it's like we're on the same wavelength or something, and we can form these really intense connections. For instance, I'll be sitting somewhat near a girl at a table or on individual chairs, in a relaxed atmosphere (like outside around a campfire or something), and we'll unconsciously synchronize our fidgeting and posture (even though we're facing and looking in directions that wouldn't put either of us in our field of vision...most of the time this behavior gets pointed out to me by other people), and when I'm talking to them, a lot of times we'll end up talking at the exact same time (which produces a lot of those "haha, you go first!" "No, that's ok, you can go." situations lol), and even say the same things at the same time, and with a certain few girls, we'll occasionally even have eerily similar dreams in the same night.
I also quite often get mistaken for being a girl when I talk to people online, whether on forums or through instant messaging, even when I don't have an avatar or any sort of personal information available (95% of the time of the several years that I've been on forums it's been a female character of some sort, the rest being symbols.)....and even when I do have my name or gender displayed, people still end up thinking I'm a girl! And when I show them how they missed something soooo obvious, they're like, "um, oh...never mind.... *facepalms*" :lol: A few times, some guys actually flirted with me...I hope the truth didn't disappoint them TOO much, hahaha!:bounce:
I've personally noticed that my sentence structures tend to use more passive and indirect phrasings as well (My English teachers all throughout school harped on me about this, but I can't help it...it was SO annoying!
The way they wanted me to write is just....blehhh...), and I write a lot of long sentences that can go on and on (while still staying grammatically correct), sometimes with several different aside statements in just one sentence; some of them can be at least as long as a whole paragraph!:lol: I also ran a bunch of the larger posts that I've made on several different forums lately (around 700 words or so) through the Gender Genie, where the subject of what I'm talking about is more personal to me and I'm being more expressive, and for every single one of them, it said I was female, and by quite a substantial point margin too--about 200 points average. I dunno how much that really means, though, but I just thought it was interesting. lolI also think my natural voice inflections and mannerisms would probably be considered more feminine as well, though I'm certainly not flamboyant or anything like that...that stuff really annoys me. The way that I show how I care about people, and experience and express emotions, love in particular, would probably also be considered very feminine. Any sort of personality test that measures how masculine/feminine you are always shows me as being extremely feminine. I could keep going on about more things, but I think that's enough for today, haha.
A lot of girls who've gotten to know me at all have actually told me that I'm way more feminine/girly than they are, and they weren't even tomboys!:lol: That's ok, though, cause I'm perfectly fine with who I am
....even though it does quite often feel like I was born with the wrong body!
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I think I'm a 6w5, so I'm kind of out of luck with the poll. I was pretty isolated throughout school, so when the homosexual rumor started somehow, I was in a position to laugh at people. Someone told me in 6th grade that if I didn't start dating people, people would think I was a homosexual. I laughed then because I couldn't believe that people would be so stupid, but I laughed later because he was right.
I don't really see myself as an masculine person. I think I am probably more masculine (by societal standards) than most women, but less so than most men. If I had to pick one, I'd rather become less masculine than less feminine. On some level I do feel need to be "manly" in order to feel confident with myself, but I take this part of myself very seriously. I find other ways to feel confident with myself and focus on those, while at the same time I can identify with people who try to be manly because that drive is still part of myself in some way.
I don't know what you should make of that but there it is.
I don't really see myself as an masculine person. I think I am probably more masculine (by societal standards) than most women, but less so than most men. If I had to pick one, I'd rather become less masculine than less feminine. On some level I do feel need to be "manly" in order to feel confident with myself, but I take this part of myself very seriously. I find other ways to feel confident with myself and focus on those, while at the same time I can identify with people who try to be manly because that drive is still part of myself in some way.
I don't know what you should make of that but there it is.
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
Obviously female
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
Absolutely. There is a range in sexuality and it in no way lives in just one type or another. Nothing is set in stone. But there seem to be more role-resistant types than others. 4s (INFx) & 5s (INTx) seem to be more sexually-ambiguous than the other types and least apt to be restricted by their gender. However, female 2 (ESFx) and male 8 (ESTx) seem very alpha-female and alpha-male, the embodiment of
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
This makes perfect sense Rainrise. 5s seem to reject people as both the
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
Bored Now, that's the thing I can't entirely reconcile about the MBTI. It seems so random to me. It's easier for me to see correlations between 5w4s vs. say, INFJs.
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
Poetic justice, how can I change a poll that's already submitted? I'd gladly change it.
- MBTI
- INTP
- Enneagram
- 5
PM an admin or just post your request right here. They are always watching
sedna
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
I've often wondered if males exaggerate thinking/females exaggerate feeling function.