If there is one true religion... | INFJ Forum

If there is one true religion...

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Vendrah, Feb 19, 2020.

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  1. Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    It would be good to start saying that I am agnostic. I do think in two ways: What if God exist/what if dont? Same for afterlife and stuff related to that.
    I have been philosophically thinking into "what if one of these religions is right?" and this started to make me conceptualize what one true religion is.

    This is may sound weird but I had tried to put myself into the God shoes, even if, of course, no human can truly do that. First thing, sorry if this sounds a little offensive to religion people, but God printing his wills into one bible at a specific language for a specific people didnt sound a wise decision to me. Then I actually already brainstormed into how I would pass my message to the humanity if I were a God, by what means. This is a good think to be thought at. There are some possibilities, instant shared dreams is one interesting thing (a dream everybody has), and after some thought I realize that God could write a Bible into our own intuition and create a sense of right and wrong printed into our own intuition. I think, at least from my own ideas, that would be the best form of it. That was months ago.

    In my life I have been observing that there are some stuff that happens that I can only explain by a ghost... I mean, some behaviours and stuff seem to quite repeats themselves, patterns repeating themselves despite the place and time being completely different and disconnected with each other. Different and independent sources carrying the same spell. I have been calling, but not speaking much about it, the thing that generates these things as "Ghost". Some years ago I even questioned myself if it was the product of some secret agency of some sort, bbuuuttt I realized that perhaps not, I always were unsure of.

    Then, two or three weeks ago, I had some strange dream being bitten by a snake in the afternoon and dying in the evening. Looking for the meaning of this dream on the internet, since dreams with snakes does have some meaning for Freud and for Jung (but none truly convinced me and I dropped the quest), I got introduced to the concept of Jung Archetypes and Jung collective unconcious (Im not talking about the Ne-archetype, Ni-archetype, but archetypes popularly known as "the trickster", "the ruler", "the wise old man", etc...). And I am also not refering to the misuse of that concept into cognitive function stack, so Im not talking about the demon function that is on the 6th position of "the stack", not at all like that. For those who doesnt know, I read partially from here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

    Someday perhaps Ill read right into the original source that it is difficult to get in my native language (that isnt english).
    But continuing, even reading a very poor resumes of the critiques of the concept, I realized that Jung actually catch something at that, even if it is not at all collective unconscious but some product of genetics. He got my ghosts. It was the first explanation so far connecting repeteable patterns of behaviour in completely disconnected places and context.

    I realized that Jungs archetypes can be anything: Collective unconscious, genes, ancient powerful souls, Gods (in a religion with multiple Gods like on the Greek one) or my ghost I was so looking for, but at least they should be something. And they explain some disconnected behaviours: People subscribing to the same archetype, and to be honest, thats not something I would link to a behaviour from MBTI or enneagram type.

    This seems like a derail but it isnt. What I realize is that people, at least in Jungs point, subscribe to something without realizing they are doing it. And thats exactly what I think the true religion, if there is one, should be.

    I think the one true religion, the real truth in a quite literal way of speaking it, must be universal, like the Jungs archetypes are supposed to be (universal at least from an human point). It doesnt need to spread: It should be something we adhere to by our own choices without even realizing it. It must be something that you are free to adhere whenever you lived your whole life in the forest in the middle of the Amazon in 1300 ac or in Europe or in Asia or 21st century in America, basically, anywhere.

    The one true religion should be universal and my strong case against religions we know is that they arent universal. For many religions, an indian that lived his whole life isolated (not the country of Asia, Im talking about the indians in the Amazon forest) cant be saved because he didnt passed through some sort of process in some building mediated by some sort of institution and didnt read and follow a certain holy book. I dont think a reasonable God would reserve the salvation to some small fraction of humanity, some folk in the middle of somewhere or nowhere in the earth while leaving the rest of the humanity (perhaps more than 90%) in the dark while waiting the priviliged folk that received his words to spread them and start translating the holy book in other languages. I think that, instead, the religion is rather universal, and that anyone in anywhere anytime can, without even realizing, subscribing to sub-aspects of it or create his/her own salvation (if there is really such a thing like that). This may sound weird at first, but just look into Jung archetypes: We more or less subscribe to a few of them, without even knowing it. One possibility is, instead of going into a heaven or hell, we would go to the same place where the subscribers of our favorite archetype goes, and depending on that, that place could be one kind of heaven, hell, or something different than that.

    It started as just a thought but as week passes I become more and more strong convinced to. I hope I was clear enough. So, thoughts? Despite me being agnostic, im also growing a belief that there is life after death, but of course I am no sure of eat. I would bet for life after death.
     
  2. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    Try reading up on Shamanism if you can access it in your native language. It may shed some more light on your quest. The Shaman in tribal communities is similar to the Holy man or woman of structured religions. ;)

    Also, Jungs writings of Syncronicity.
    It's my belief that everything is connected, As above, so below. As within so without.
    Another great topic to consider is Quantum Entanglement. Best wishes to you in your journey of understanding.

    Welcome to the group. :D
     
  3. OP
    Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    What do you mean by welcome to the group?

    Yep, Ill try to check these things out later, although I dont like when people transform modern physics and uses words like "Quantum" in a way that disgusts people that actually work with that. Now I have remember that my country actually already has Quantum Coaches, geee!
     
  4. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    Beg my pardon, I thought you new to the group.

    Well wishes.
     
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  5. OP
    Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    You meant this forum?
    Yep, a few months old here. Thanks.
     
  6. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    Yes, my intent was to welcome you.
     
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  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf Regular Poster

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    Hey, i completely agree with your idea that there must be one true religon or belief that all people will be witnessing its truth after death.
    But to comment on what you mean that it is wrong that some 10% or 30% of people will follow the true religon and go to heaven while all who is left will be casted to hell, don't you think that there is very critical concept which is The environment/the media/the way we were raised , all have effects on the way we think of diffrent things, religon itself is one of them, our parents may be telling us that their religon is the one right religion, and when we become unable to find the meaning in them it gives us a concept that all religions are same and they are used to make our living in the world easier.

    As an agnostic you have questions in your mind, why somethings are the way we are ? why somethings are not the way they should be ? And at end when you don't find answers for those questions you choose to serve the questions and use them as basis of your belief. I don't blame you for thinking so, i don't blame if whatever the religon you followed or thought of following couldn't answer your "whys?" .

    It is improper to judge what other religions think and believe when we don't actually have knowledge of what other religons are like and what they lead to.
    Mostly religons present their idea by faith
    "Have faith in the words" ,
    but faith itself is just a claim if not supported by Answers and evidences.
    For me iam muslim, and i find that my religon has filled the holes of my doubts and didn't leave a blank space for them.
    You can search in the internet that Islam is the only religon which supports its "faith" by logical and scientific proves of its truth.
    It doesn't stop on that, yet, it in the "holly quran" it challenges the unbelievers to disprove it and no one could disprove a single verse from it until this very day.
    If i can give you an advice , study the religons and compare them yourself, then atleast you will find out which believe gives the best answers for your questions.
     
  8. Aneirin

    Aneirin AKA, David
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    to answer the question.. no
     
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  9. OP
    Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    Thanks for advice =). I have some PS although.

    Doing statements that cant be disproved is easy. Inventing statements that cant disproved isnt that difficult.
    Just one example, let me tell you: "At all corners of universe, there is a beautiful colorful unicorn." Can you disprove my random statement? Well, nope, you cant. The fact that you cant disprove doesnt make my statement true (I invented it, but perhaps I coould be lucky enough to be right, but thats quite unlikely).
    The question of improper judgement is quite of a problem in both political and "religionary" fields. These areas create big fat books and, despise/despite of them wanting to spread, they only want to get any critical view after all big fat content are all read, which creates a huge waste of time in studies that wont mean much. Just another random example, I could put a computer to write a random books with random words (there are already programs that creates filler texts) and say to you: Only discuss with me if you read my 1,000,000 pages book. Nobody will qualify to challange me and I will state myself as the holder of the truth in the world, since everybody that contested me is an ignorant for not reading my 1,000,000 pages book. For other side, discussing things we barely known is quite hard. The lack of objectiveness into these doutrines that have long books that could be summarized in a few pages is quite a problem.

    Which question...?
     
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  10. Aneirin

    Aneirin AKA, David
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    Is there one true religion..the one asked by the starter of this thread. . no
     
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  11. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Community Member

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    I like the Blind Men and Elephant a good example for religious dfferences

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

    Its different parts of the same animal.

    That said, I don't believe in a God or Gods anyway, or at least no benevolent ones so makes little difference to me.

    I'd just prefer the religious wars and bias stop so we can progress as a species together...
     
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  12. OP
    Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    If there is one true religion...

    Its an hypothesis, not a question. "Supposing that there is one true religion, then...."
    Im the starter of this thread by the way =O
    =)

    Its a cool and good parable.

    One of my strong arguments in the first thread is kind of against these religion wars indirectly.

    If one given religion is with the "universal truth", for real, then, if you burn every book or trace of that religion and if every religion follower of that religion dies, the religion doesnt die and it will just be born again in the future. Many religions start wars into fear of being exterminated or extinct, as many were in the past; These religions are very unlikely to be the real ones. The real one, if there is any, shouldnt have that fear. At the same time, if there is one, it shouldnt really be that noisy. The "real truth" doesnt need any followers at all to be the "real truth", it doesnt need to be expanded and spread because it is already present anyway.
     
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  13. Ren

    Ren Pin's android

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    I think the idea of a 'true religion' is a bit of a contradiction.

    Faith explores what lies beyond the possibility of scientific certainty.
     
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  14. Yusuf

    Yusuf Regular Poster

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    You are welcome, thanks for pointing out that for me, i wasn't clear with my talk when i said that there are scientific evidences mentioned in the quran, what i mean is if i used the Unicorn as an example, if someone said 1400 years ago "At all corners of universe, there is a beautiful colorful unicorn." It be will no more than a claim at that time, but what if the scientists discovered in our modern day that there are beautiful unicorns in all corners of universe ??
    It can lead to two answers , we can say it is either by luck, or we can say that this person had some external source of knowledge at that time , which is .. unlikely ? So we would rationally go with Luck as an answer. But what if that person at that particular time mentioned more than thousand statement like that which we only came to prove when science discovered in this very day ?
    The answer will not be between Two at this point, it will be clear that this person had an external source of knowledge and that what he spoke weren't empty statements of faith but rather supported by basic human logic and evidences.
    That person was prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) , he didn't claim divinity nor anything like it , instead, he believed these words (The Quran) were given to him are from a one and only god which created this universe. We refer to that god as Allah.
    Islam doesn't contradict with science.
    Quran speaked about Astronomy, geology, water cycle, oceanography, Botany, Biology, zoology etc .
    Almost , whatever quran has mentioned more than 1400years ago, 80% of it was 100% proven to be true by science, the remaining 20% wasn't proved nor a single verse of it could be disproved by established science, it is ambiguous, which if we advanced can prove at future.
    So it's a logical believe.
    Oh yeah it's logical to say at this point that the quran has been modified through time to make it seem as subject which surpassed future, but no, ever since the muslims from that day til this day recite and memorize quran then learn its meaning, its agreed that the words of this single book haven't undergone any change through time.


    I can give alot of examples on these these matters including the bigbang theory, but it would be easier if you watched this clip :



    The clip above mentions these stuff in general so if you are interested to see various examples of scientific miracles that were mentioned in Quran you can watch these two clips as well :

    1-
    2-
     
  15. OP
    Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    Sorry for taking long to answer, I have been busy creating my own MBTI quiz (I tried to make it super B and creative; But at least is quite decent and creative) and modifying it to partially correct it flaws (in case someone is curious, link: https://www.quotev.com/quiz/12501474/Sum-Typing-MBTI-Test-with-cognitive-functions).

    Im not so sure, but I already heard speech like these before. Now, Im actually a little afraid to enter into a deep religion discussion because that risks me of being banned (since the heat part always boots in), so, shortly, some of these evidences might be old knowledge, for example this you tube comment:
    "the first person to discover that the moon reflected light was Anaxagorous, a Greek philosopher and scientist who lived from 500-428BC. That was approximately 1000 years before Islam."

    Besides these that I dont even want to argue with, there is still my main argument in this topic: Why a Holy book?
    These Holy books fight each other and the real God, here it is for example the Holy Bible fighting Quran (from another YT comment):
    "God's name is not God or Allah! -- God’s name is “Jehovah”! Read (Exodus 3: 14, 15), (Psalm 135: 13), (Isaiah 42: 8). "
    And that phrase is like 2% of that comment.
    Supposing there is one God, doesnt seem to do much except very casual and point revelations, while, for example, God could solve all this problem making us all to dream the same dream, over a week, giving everybody the clarity we need.

    Thats my point, really. Pointing a specific Holy book, with a specific instituition/religion, doesnt seem to be a decent solution to a problem that could be solved making us dreaming at the same time. I still believe it must be something universal and "being saved" must be something to be reached for a citizen in the middle of New York and for a native citizen in the middle of the amazon; Either Asian, Arabic, European, African, whatever... And not something that is, "ponctual", perhaps? Of course I dont know much about Quran, but for the stuff you posted it really seems that the only "way to be saved" is through Quran and muslim religion.
     
  16. barbad0s

    barbad0s Regular Poster

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    I don’t believe that people are inherently religious, except that people tend to be bitches who want to please others and get off of being told what to do and following it disingenuously to the masochistic/sadistic obvious detriment of themselves and others.

    I can accept some level of spirituality, however.
     
  17. Ren

    Ren Pin's android

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    Nietzsche, come out of this body
     
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  18. barbad0s

    barbad0s Regular Poster

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    No please, he adds the secret ingredient to my yogurt.
     
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  19. Yusuf

    Yusuf Regular Poster

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    I have token the personality test and it seemed like you have done alot of work on it, unfortunately it mismatched with my infj personality, but i appricate the effort, keep going !
     
  20. Yusuf

    Yusuf Regular Poster

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    You are right, the fight and the rivalry between religions still goes on, which is really wrong because we shall respect other religions as well. As for Islam, it is against this kind of disrespect to other religons. Actually one of it's defination of the word "Islam" next to Peace is Sincerity, so unless a person is sincere he can't be a muslim, and in the same way can't force anyone to accept it as well.

    1- So why didn't the god make all of this easy to humans and took them all to heaven if he truely exists?

    2-Why religon is not accessible to everyone anywhere?

    3- why there has to be a book?



    Those are three questions which i may give the proper answer from Islam's point of view. If you think that this conversation will turn into mess and cause us to be kicked out then we can talk in private and i can hopefully meet your doubts unless you don't feel like continuing, then you can just take few minutes of your time and add this to your thoughts stock.

    1- why didn't god make all of this easy to humans and took them all to heaven if he truely exists?

    Because it's test, the thing is that we only have one opportunity in this life, we don't come back after we are dead to correct the things we have done. God tests different people in diffrent ways,
    Let's suppose in a primary school the teacher wants to take a test from the students.
    In the exam there is question 2+2=?
    If during the exam the teacher saw a student writing 2+2=5 then will it be fair if the teacher went to correct that student?
    No, it wouldn't be fair, in the same manner when god created this universe and created trees animals and then created us with this privilage of brain and rationality, it wouldn't be fair if all of us go to heaven without testing us.
    That's why there is this darkness and unfairness in our lifes, he created us to see whether in our own will, we will choose the right path which is believing in him in both good and bad times, in both poor-ness and richness, in both health and sickness, And it is mostly harder for those who were givin wealth, good life and happiness to pass the test more than anyone, Because their test is to appricate what they have and thank him by praying to him since most of us don't appricate things until they are gone.
    It was mentioned in the quran (Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving)
    This verse means that He brought creation into existence from nothing in order to test the creatures. He examines them to see which of them will be best in deeds, and which one of them truely deserves the heaven. He is the Most Powerful and the Most Honorable. However, along with this He is Most Forgiving to whoever turns to Him in repentance and seeks His pardon after having disobeyed Him and opposed His commandment. Even though god is Almighty, He also forgives, shows mercy, pardons and excuses.

    2- Why religon is not accessible to everyone anywhere?

    Allah says in the quran (We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?)

    We will focus on the first part only of this verse. It says that the truth will be accessible to every single human who lives in this world, either through themselves or in the horizons.

    Every child is born pure of thoughts, by time, the child becomes influenced by his parents and his environment, and at end it produces a person who is either healthy or has wrong thoughts and beliefs.
    through all of that, the person will be shown the truth of this world, its science and miracles, the person will look in the sky and ask himself how did the moon and the sun got up there ? What makes them capable of rotating in this way? Who or what made this possible?
    The person will look at himself and the see the way his body functions, he will wonder how his body regains skin after it has been wounded? How amazing it is for a human to come out of another human?
    The truth will be visible to them and infront of their eyes.

    God has sent many messengers to transfer his message, by name only 25 are mentioned in the quran, starting from Adam, jesus until mohamed, new info?
    So islam is not 1400 old, it was there since the start of humanity.
    And for every generation there was a messenger and sometimes a book, however those books were only meant to be used in their particular time and particular people, and as for mohamed (the last messanger) the quran was there, and the religon was complete in quran.

    Why iam mentioning this ?
    Islam could have reached faraway places since it claims it is the right path, but unfortunately the biggest enemy for islam is not christianity nor jews, currently it is the massmedia which makes muslims be seem as torrests although muslims make 20% of the world, yeah we could have bombed the whole world with this number if it was our aim, fortunately our only purpose is spreading peace.
    As for anyone in this age we are living who has never heard of islam and quran, will it be fair to them in that case?

    if he was truly ignorant, and the call of Islam never reached him at all, or it reached him in a distorted manner in such a way that proof is not established against one like him, then with regard to his fate on the Day of Resurrection, there was a lengthy debate among the scholars.

    The most correct scholarly view concerning him is that he will be tested on the Day of Resurrection. Then whoever obeys Allah will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys Him will enter Hell.

    3- why there has to be a book?

    Let's assume that there is new machine which you found in the road, this machine no one really knows how it works or how it is used for, who will you go to to know its mechanism?
    Probably you will say the inventor, the scientist behind it or the creator, whatever you call him it indicates that he only knows how this will function.
    In the same way when we were born and given the opportunity to live, it isn't just to achieve dreams or enjoy it, i mean there are those who are born blind and can't move as well, is it fair for them as well ?

    So when god created us he as well give us the quran, in which he clearly showed the Purpose of life (its mechanism),
    The right and wrong, the good deeds in which we all shall have, not through mere claim, but also supported by reason and evidence.
     
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