If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally | INFJ Forum

If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally

CuriousEn

CuriousEn

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I know that a lot of you are thinking there is no way you're wrong. But then I realized that no matter what the odds were. If it were all true, then burning in hell for eternity would be no fun for anybody. Nobody could tolerate it. It would be the suffering of suffering. Just think about that setting for one minute. You cannot say it wouldn't phase you. It does concern me. My question to Christians is this. About 5 years ago, I attended church. I was open minded, I went with my born again christian friend. And I asked Jesus to forgive me. But I only half believed it. I mean I wasn't even questioning whether I believed it or not. At the time I just said whatever I believe anyone for the sake of it. So if it were all true and we do go to hell, would I be forgiven since I already asked for forgiveness? Or do you have to believe it 100 percent?

My other question to Christians is this. If you are already forgiven for all of your sins and you pleaded to Jesus, why must you go church still and pray? Why do you need to pray if you are already forgiven? Is it to socialize and eat with friends? Or be a part of something? Because I mean wouldn't you just be able to forgo it and watch football if you wanted to? All sins are forgiven once you asked right? Why does Jesus want you to constantly pray? Does he really need that?
 
Not all christians believe people will burn eternally in hell. I myself believe people God doesn't chose will be "deleted". Also the new testament never states that non-christians will be condemned. You should pray because god can help you, you love God, and because it reminds you that you are mortal and life is precious. Church should be about having communion with brethren i.e. socialize and eat with friends while studying the bible. Just because you ask for forgiveness doesn't mean you have it. Do not increase sin to increase grace.

I honestly believe that God created man to love him. Sin was introduced into the world as a way for man to truly love God. If you are innocent and someone takes care of you the love you would have is not real love. If you have a choice and choose to love God despite physical temporary suffering then you have made the choice to love so it is a true love.

Just because someone preaches does not mean they believe. Remember that christianity is a compassionate faith; anyone who wants to scare you into belief does not understand christianity.
 
I don't believe people would go to hell for no good reason.

I can understand a just god not letting people into heaven for whatever reasons, but having the alternative be complete damnation and suffering is spiteful and unnecessary, which I don't think god would be, and if it is then I'd not follow it out of principle.

But I trust that if there is a god, it is more intelligent and sensible than that.
 
For me personally as an atheist I pretty sure I'm not wrong. There has been no evidence to show me either philosophically or scientifically that God exits. And that any kind of after life or deity isn't a result of human limitations to accept truth. Or the human need to give order and reason where there is none, IE anthropomorphizing the universe and its laws.

But if there is a hell. To me it would be more that God isn't present. In that you can't commune with god in hell. I think it like heaven without god hovering over you "enlightening you" hell is just like heaven. But is awful for believers who can't survive without an Idea of God.

So I'll see you all in hell for the orgies, Hellcon, great bands, great food, and any other fun "bad things" I can think of.
 
Kessler said:
Not all christians believe people will burn eternally in hell. I myself believe people God doesn't chose will be "deleted". Also the new testament never states that non-christians will be condemned. You should pray because god can help you, you love God, and because it reminds you that you are mortal and life is precious. Church should be about having communion with brethren i.e. socialize and eat with friends while studying the bible. Just because you ask for forgiveness doesn't mean you have it. Do not increase sin to increase grace.

I honestly believe that God created man to love him. Sin was introduced into the world as a way for man to truly love God. If you are innocent and someone takes care of you the love you would have is not real love. If you have a choice and choose to love God despite physical temporary suffering then you have made the choice to love so it is a true love.

Just because someone preaches does not mean they believe. Remember that christianity is a compassionate faith; anyone who wants to scare you into belief does not understand christianity.
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Kessler, I appreciate the input. Well, the friend that I had (still have sort of) did go very hardcore about his faith and it did put me off. I'm guessing that is why it's not brought up between us as much now. He would basically get pretentious and arrogant about his faith and claim that all other religions would burn because they didn't have the right resume or the right savior to enter the confines of heavens. One quote of his other than "I have faith and know I'm right'' was, ''The Truth hurts.'' So in a way that did put fear into me. When I first went to church with him it wasn't like that, but he just got more and more into it and it seemed like he got more and more angry. And out of thin air he would ask us all if we read the bible that week, then start bickering if the answer was no. Then there was the praying every time he snacked, though I won't get into that.

But would it be wrong to join up again just to be part of a community, just to have somewhere to go? I do have friends that go just to talk to girls. I remember being part of Scientology in the days. After a few months I couldn't afford it and I just stopped going. But the one good thing about the Scientology Church was feeling a part of something important. The building was really nice and there is a special atmosphere whenever you're around a group of people who have a collective goal that goes against the norm. Sort of like when I was in MLM, multi level marketing. I never profited but the meetings and the people were a huge boost in your ambitions. You feel like you are a part of something. Everyone's happy around you, everyone is nice and positive. That's sort of what I liked about the church. You're spending time with people, it feels like a family gathering. But I am a very curious person. And I always felt that if I put my faith into something, then I wouldn't be ope minded anymore.

So sometimes I feel it's best to just stay on the sidelines. But what are the reasons why I should believe in Christ? I keep reading that there is no historical evidence. See the thing is I'm not so sure if I want to be bowing down to a God like being all the time. What I'm more concerned about is the death of the ones I know. I care more about that than my own mortality. Because the only reason why I would love a heaven would be to see the people who have went astray from this earth. I'm not so interested in just surrendering and being someone's right hand man.
 
Religious guilt, yo.

Scare tactics.

Grew up believing this stuff because I really had no choice -- and all I can say to you is believing purely because you are scared it "might" be true and you "could possibly" end up in hell for all eternity is the wrong way to go. That's not real belief in anything other than wanting to save your own ass.
 
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Neverwhere said:
Religious guilt, yo.

Scare tactics.

Grew up believing this stuff because I really had no choice -- and all I can say to you is believing purely because you are scared it "might" be true and you "could possibly" end up in hell for all eternity is the wrong way to go. That's not real belief in anything other than wanting to save your own ass.
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Damn strait my brother. Speak the truth!

I mean seriously some of these posts are just asking to be torn apart.

So we have god. is......

A narcissistic person who needs attention regardless of the fact he his all powerful.

Bad people will either go to hell or be "deleted"

And truth doesn't matter as long as the lie feels safer....
 
There aren't really any good answers to your questions. Any answer will be based on centuries of poorly supported dogma and theological gymnastics. Like, the bible does not have any kind of satisfying answers.

Most people go to church for reasons that are not spiritual, it seems. If Jesus will not accept those who are lukewarm, he's going to have pretty slim pickings, so I would not worry about that. Christianity is kind of a mess, when you compare what it is with what it claims to be.

If all of your worrying stems from thinking about the possibilty of hell, here is a link for you: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal's_Wager
 
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I thought about that when I first became an atheist. I looked for a way to keep my beliefs but also cover my bases. My conclusion was that if god is so petty and self-absorbed that it would condemn an innocent person to an eternity of torture, then all I need to do is give lip service to it.

However, I realised that hell would be preferable to spending an eternity with a sociopathic deity.
 
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@CuriousEn
I'm Catholic, so my take on your question(s) will be different from most of the denominations.

It seems to me, that eternal life is proper to God alone. Attaining eternal life, is attaining a participation in the life of God. Catholics call this participation Grace.

To participate in the life of another implies a kind of relationship. It does not seem to me that the relationship of an individual to God is indestructable (not because of a defect in the constancy of God, but because of the inconstancy of man). That is to say, the state of Grace can variously be cultivated, maintained, neglected, or lost on our part.

Most protestant sects, of which there are thousands, seem to believe that once you have believed once, you are saved. However, it seems more reasonable that faith in the existence of God; and in his will to save souls is only the beginning and prerequisite to eternal life, not its development and cultivation. Belief in God makes possible the love of God, which is called the bond of charity, which is established at Baptism; and which can be damaged by sin, and repaired by repentance, contrition and absolution.
 
Well, I've been told I'm going to hell numerous times, starting from childhood, for ridiculous things that are largely out of my control, to the point that scare tactics don't even work anymore, they just piss me off. I'm not even a raging atheist type, I'm mostly just "meh, whatever." My theory is you can be pretty much any religion, and love one another, and that is what matters, and what makes the difference between heaven and hell right here on earth. Hopefully Jesus agrees.
 
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(Just remember that what I'm about to say is my opinion and based on my own spiritual experience.)

I don't think there is anything in the bible about "burning" ... that whole concept was brought about by Dante's Inferno. It is difficult to not be "feared" into believing what certain churches teach, it's how they maintain their membership and profitability. People put God in a box, and many fail to realize he/she/it/universe/energy is so much greater than what was ever written in a book. I do believe the Bible to be a living, breathing message; however I also believe it to be a book ... such an undefined boundary of idealism vs. realism. Just remember that there are so many variations of the church.

Here is something that may or may not make sense to you. Don't think of entities as people, think of them as positive and negative energy. There are variations within the positive and negative as well. Both of them working to influence you (good vs. evil.) Energy is tangible, it's something you feel or a conduit for scientific experiment. Those who are the purest share the same positive energy thread = God, Jesus, Buddha, etc. When you are asking Jesus into your life, you are asking to be transformed and influenced by purest energy. You are asking the purest energy to guide you to a better version of you, you are asking the purest energy to have dominion over your soul. You cannot fool the energy, it's all knowing. As people, we are all on various spiritual/energy levels. Some high and some low. When you die, your energy will be joined by those with like-energy. For pure negative energy, they are joined with pure negative energy = hell.

People go to church because yes they want to socialize and eat with friends, but also because they want to be a part of a community. They go to church to support each other in times of duress or a time when they feel they are being attacked. It becomes a place of relief where they can be surrounded by people with the same minds and be accepted for their beliefs. The temple of God resides within your own heart. You don't have to go to church to be spiritual. Since you find yourself asking these questions, you are already on your journey. What you have to remember is that it is those people who strive to become more spiritual, also have negative forces trying desperately to hang onto them (like the video below states.) God wants you to pray when YOU want to pray, when YOU need to talk to him, when YOU feel you need guidance and influence.

This movie may or may not help, if anything I have found it fascinating to watch.
[video=youtube;FTq0xjJaWkw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTq0xjJaWkw&feature=player_embedded[/video]

There are many facets to this video that resonate with me, especially around the 13:40 mark.
 
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first of all, no one is 'right'. faith is a subjective thing, not objective. christians believe they are the only real religion, as do many others.
if you ask me our church is within ourselves.
oh and the praying thing...not for god or jesus. praying is for the one doing the praying.
 
Neverwhere said:
Religious guilt, yo.

Scare tactics.

Grew up believing this stuff because I really had no choice -- and all I can say to you is believing purely because you are scared it "might" be true and you "could possibly" end up in hell for all eternity is the wrong way to go. That's not real belief in anything other than wanting to save your own ass.
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I believe in saving my ass above most everything else.
 
If the sun exploded, we'd all be screwed. For some weirdo-assed reason, we assume the sun will rise the next day.
 
the said:
I believe in saving my ass above most everything else.
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Right. All I was saying was any reasonable person would want to save their ass if it really was all true. Then again, what if heaven was just doing chants and worshipping Jesus all day.
 
I think that we progress and all other things do too because everything comes from consciousness.
We cannot prove it empirically from our perspective but it becomes self evident with practice personally and then a leap of faith is required to assume other things work similarly.

So, to me, you create what you want after death for yourself. If your thoughts on life after death involve hell, that's what you'll see. If not, you'll see otherwise.
People come back from NDEs with all sorts of visions and I think this is because of that. Some envision hell and others heaven...some more see nothing, because that is what they expect to see. Why anyone would stay in a 'hell' is beyond me...but if they believe they deserve it it will take them to realise they don't to come out of it. I think that wouldn't be too difficult if every thought became manifest instantaneously.

But furthermore, perhaps the planet is evolving. If this is the case then earth as we know it could only tolerate the destructive people for so long.
Eventually, only those who are capable of living with and alongside the rest of the biosphere will be able to stay.
Could this be the Final Judgement? If earth is to evolve those who could not adapt would have to go elsewhere...it's a big universe though.
 
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CuriousEn said:
Right. All I was saying was any reasonable person would want to save their ass if it really was all true. Then again, what if heaven was just doing chants and worshipping Jesus all day.
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Personally I don't believe in the version of Christianity where heaven is a perpetual church service and people are on fire for forever because god apparently cannot destroy them or something. Or anything else you'd probably find in a backwoods all-American pentacostalism church.
 
I don't believe in a personal God. But if I did it wouldn't be a vengeful one. If God exists and we're all children of God, how could he punish his children to eternal suffering and damnation? Especially if God made us in his own image. Christianity just doesn't make sense on any level. Intellectual or emotional. It's nonsense. I couldn't punish my children to eternal damnation no matter what they do (if I had any). How am I to believe that a creator of everything would want to do something like that? People who believe in that are rotten. A good person doesn't need to believe in hell in order to be good.
 
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