I have never understood why so much energy is expended on belief. There are more pressing and conclusive problems in this turbulent world of ours.
If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally
- Thread starter CuriousEn
- Start date
Wow those are a lot of questions and its really great that you are considerimg so many aspects of the decision, ill try to answer as much as i can:
First of all, the bahviour exhibited by your friend is a bit extreme for christiamity, you dont have to read the bible or go to church.
Second you dont have to believe or be a christian to go to the church. Jesus welcomed everyone to his side.
Third, the concept of christianity is not about obedience or submission but about love and compassion. You listen to gods word amd his advice because you love god and have a personal relationship with him, just like you would listen to someone else you truly cared about because their opinion matters to you.
God does not require submission we give it to him because we are thankful and we know that hes looking out for us
The problem with other religions is that ur always tryimg to earn your way into heaven, whereas christianity says that we all need a saviour. Amd the beauty of it is that you dont even have to ask for forgiveness, its already given out of love. All you have to do is accept it. So really it all comes down to you. If you truly believe in god and have accepted his gift of salvation, then you are saved if ur not ur not but not because god hasnt given it to you but because you didnt accept it, just like any gift that you return.
Now think on the following: if you really did believe that someone came along and gave his life so you could live forever. Wouldnt you love that person ? Wouldnt want to thank them ? Doing gods will is our way of thanking him for saving us.
I know there is a lot more to discuss on this topic, if ur rly interested in delving deeper drop me an email and we can talk about this in as much or as little detail as you like.
P.s. i struggled with the same questions for years before i made my peace.
First of all, the bahviour exhibited by your friend is a bit extreme for christiamity, you dont have to read the bible or go to church.
Second you dont have to believe or be a christian to go to the church. Jesus welcomed everyone to his side.
Third, the concept of christianity is not about obedience or submission but about love and compassion. You listen to gods word amd his advice because you love god and have a personal relationship with him, just like you would listen to someone else you truly cared about because their opinion matters to you.
God does not require submission we give it to him because we are thankful and we know that hes looking out for us
The problem with other religions is that ur always tryimg to earn your way into heaven, whereas christianity says that we all need a saviour. Amd the beauty of it is that you dont even have to ask for forgiveness, its already given out of love. All you have to do is accept it. So really it all comes down to you. If you truly believe in god and have accepted his gift of salvation, then you are saved if ur not ur not but not because god hasnt given it to you but because you didnt accept it, just like any gift that you return.
Now think on the following: if you really did believe that someone came along and gave his life so you could live forever. Wouldnt you love that person ? Wouldnt want to thank them ? Doing gods will is our way of thanking him for saving us.
I know there is a lot more to discuss on this topic, if ur rly interested in delving deeper drop me an email and we can talk about this in as much or as little detail as you like.
P.s. i struggled with the same questions for years before i made my peace.
I'm not offended on any level. =)
I'm transsexual and Pansexual. how could I fit in to a Christian church, the way I am?
I did not ask to be born in the wrong body or ask for my sexuality, as many of others have been. I just have a problem seeing genuine Christians. I know man/woman is fallible,but there is a difference between fallible and outright hatred and hypocrisy.
I'm more at peace being Wiccan ( Also if your mother is claiming to be wiccan and involved you in Satanic rituals, then she isn't Wiccan, as we don't believe in Lucifer/Satan/The Enemy or whatever name he uses and we are told to harm no one) and worshipping a Goddess who doesn't demand anything from me unlike the God of the Abrahamic religions gives me peace and lead a stress free life.
I see more miracles everyday in nature and life, I respect the Earth as it is a living thing and try my best to always follow my path. I'm not perfect and do screw up now and again,but, I'd have to have some kind of " Road to Damascus" event before I would ever believe in the Abrahamic God.
Blessed Be xx
It wasn't my mother she doesn't believe in harming any living creature. She has issues with even killing brown recluse spiders that end up in her house. the only reason she is okay with that is because she doesn't want her dogs being bitten. As for Genuine Christians no there are not a lot of us as far as percentages go of people who claim Christianity I would like to say around 20% are but if I am realistic it's more like 1-5%. The problem is so many just want to create their own image of God instead of actually reading the Bible and allowing God to show them who He actually is. Hence the false doctrine that has risen with "Hell" if you actually read the Bible there are multiple references to the dead being asleep and raised all together at once for Judgement.
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You; in Sheol (the place of the dead) who will give You thanks?
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten
John 6:40
For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Revelation 20:12
I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
Revelation 20:11-13 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Revelation 20:13
And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works].
Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise [to his former state]. Till the heavens are no more, men will not awake nor be raised [physically] out of their sleep
Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; lighten the eyes [of my faith to behold Your face in the pitchlike darkness], lest I sleep the sleep of death
Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence
Revelation 20:5
The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection
This is just a small example of the lies that are taught in the modern churches. As for the lake of fire and brimstone if you read the passages that reference it in context and actually use a hebrew for old testament and greek lexicon for new testament writings you will find that those who are cast into it receive permanent destruction. They cease to exist there is no eternal torture the eternal punishment they receive is not having eternal life with God in Heaven. Once again not trying to offend anyone just expressing what I have studied out and believe. If you disagree that is you using your free will and I don't judge you for doing so. I do hope however that anyone reading this will ask God and Jesus to reveal themselves to you and show you in your heart that they love you and do indeed exist. It is my belief anyone who searches for God in sincerity of heart will indeed find Him. That is what led me out of atheism. I tried to prove God doesn't exist and He showed me He does.
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We won't gain higher understanding when we die. The bible is pretty clear that there is no knowledge or wisdom in the grave (Sheol, the abode of the dead whether good or bad, which was translated Hades in the New Testament). Understanding would not come again until after the Bodily Resurrection in the Last Days.
Scripture never clearly addresses what will happen to those who never claimed to follow Christ (whether or not they ever heard his message) but still loved their neighbors and tried to live righteously. Perhaps some might fare well on judgement day.
Jesus did say that those who did things worthy of punishment but did not know that what they did was wrong would be given a mild punishment, whereas those who willfully sin with full knowledge of their wrong doing would be shown no clemency.
It is pretty explicit that hypocritical self-proclaimed Christians whose actions show a lack of love will be damned.
(That probably means cease to exist. I prefer the doctrine of Conditional Immortality, where man is naturally mortal and cannot continue to exist once separated from God. This is often grouped in with Annihilationism, but that technically requires God active destroy souls that might otherwise have been immortal rather than passively stop sustaining them. Either of those fits the bible much better than the doctrine of Eternal Damnation does. Even some forms of Universal Reconciliation, in which long periods of torment are a means of purifying the wicked and preparing them for salvation, have more scriptural support than Eternal Damnation in the original languages.
The church at Ephesus, where the Apostle John and Mary the Theotokos were believed to have lived and taught long after the other apostles had all died, held to Conditional Immortality. The Berber Father's of North Africa, such as the fanatical Tertullian, held to Eternal Damnation. The other centers of the early church had no dogma on the subject, but Universalism was commonly accepted. For more than a century, the only Christians who claimed that the soul was naturally immortal were advocates of Universal Reconciliation. Eternal Damnation only became popular in the church at large due to the influence of the North African Augustine of Hippo. He quickly came to be considered the greatest of church father and doctor of the church, which is a bit odd when you consider the fact that he admitted horribly failing the few introductory Greek lessons he took and never even trying to learn any other biblical language. He was eloquent in Latin, but that doesn't mean he should be considered a religious authority.)
There is a heavy assumption that you Christian guys were the true ones.
What if it's Islam? Grecian mythology? Shintoism?
Sometimes it's trying to save your ass.
This.
Sometimes it's a schadenfreudic thing.
Not wanting to save your ass, but wanting to see your enemy BURN.
From your desc, your friend, for all his worth, seems to be the latter variant. :|
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This type of reasoning only comes from the new atheists or those who follow Harris and Dawkins. This really is an embarrassment to philosophy and I can't stand hearing you guys any more. You all say the same things.
You haven't even adressed the concept of omniscience. . .
Please go read the "Teleological suspension of the Ethical" from Kierkegaard before you make another thread. And while your at it, look up David Hume. . .
This philosophy is just sad. . .
The question of Christianity and hell can be seen in another way if you actually consider that there was at least two distinct Christian movements, both with entirely different doctrines. There was the Church of Jerusalem headed by James the just (Jesus's brother) which had historic connections to the Essenes, a Jewish gnostic sect, and the Christianity derived from the Teachings of St Paul (Saul), a man who had never met the living Jesus. The Gnostics believed that all souls are trapped in cycles of rebirth (Yes early Christianity believed in reincarnation) and so are held prisoners of the demirge (Evil force of universe). This would mean that there wasn't ever a realm of hell, but that hell could be seen in psychological terms as the shadow or animus of our human nature and world, just as in the Tao, there exists the elements of yin and yang, so in our natures the Gnostic Christians believed there was a higher and lower self, which does appear similar in structure to the Buddhist thought of the Mind and ego. Now St Paul and the other lesser disciples represents the form of Christianity that would become what is known as Orthodox Christianity, and there lies the problem!
So what your fearing concerning hell is in fact erroneous propaganda not from any Lord, but from sadly religious institutions trying to control society, politically. Only religions need to control people, true spirituality wishes to empower and liberate the individual. The original teachings of the Jesus in the Gospels of Thomas reveals more a guru style teacher teaching spiritual liberation from within, just as Buddha did 500 years before in India.
So to give you some food for thought, is the Jesus you were taught about, and the teachings you were raised with, what if they are not the authentic teachings of Jesus but the fabrications of the Roman empire, then all that worrying about Hell will be for nothing. Although I respect the beliefs of people who are Christian, these are my points in answering your question "If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally". So to all non Christians like myself (Dharma believer) we don't have to worry about hell, as just a quick look at the world, you can sure find some places that would fit the bill.
So what your fearing concerning hell is in fact erroneous propaganda not from any Lord, but from sadly religious institutions trying to control society, politically. Only religions need to control people, true spirituality wishes to empower and liberate the individual. The original teachings of the Jesus in the Gospels of Thomas reveals more a guru style teacher teaching spiritual liberation from within, just as Buddha did 500 years before in India.
So to give you some food for thought, is the Jesus you were taught about, and the teachings you were raised with, what if they are not the authentic teachings of Jesus but the fabrications of the Roman empire, then all that worrying about Hell will be for nothing. Although I respect the beliefs of people who are Christian, these are my points in answering your question "If Christians were right, then all us Non Christians are screwed royally". So to all non Christians like myself (Dharma believer) we don't have to worry about hell, as just a quick look at the world, you can sure find some places that would fit the bill.
I think that anyone who thinks the different religions are talking about different gods are welcome to their beliefs. I have my own life to live too, ya know!
Thinking about this does require a little bit of courage to not just stick to the obviously-corrupted set reading.
If God is infinite and all-loving, pretty much everything else follows for me.
Thinking about this does require a little bit of courage to not just stick to the obviously-corrupted set reading.
If God is infinite and all-loving, pretty much everything else follows for me.
Some guy named Abraham a long time ago decided there is only one true god and therefore he's holy. He was very charismatic, so he gathered a whole bunch of people that wanted to be holy too.
After some generations some of the holy people realized that if people think of you as holy, they fear/respect you and this grants you power, and all they wanted was power. So this religion was only an excuse for them to gain more power and be corrupted for ever and ever until they die.
So a few thousands of years later, one of these guys called Jesus(Yoshua) who was more of a hippy and a make love not war kinda guy, and he was very bright as well, decided this use of religion is bad for mankind, and he decided to create a new religion, that worships the same god (as he also believed there is only one true god), only that will be accessible to everyone who would like to join, unlike the first one.
So a few hundred years later, some of the people in that new religion understood what some of the people in the first religion understood thousands of years before - when you're considered holy you have power over people. So that group became corrupt as well. And their new trick was to tell their poor mental slaves, that if they will not do everything they tell them to do, they will suffer eternal pain and suffering. If they do what they tell them to do, they will enjoy eternal bliss.
So a few hundreds of years later, came a guy named Muhammad and decided those guys in the west have a point, and there must only be one god. So he decided to get to the chase and started massacring hundreds and thousands of people who weren't as holy as he was.
And some other guys from his religion are using the 2nd religion's trick of heaven and hell.
A couple hundred years later, a guy wrote about this in a forum, realizing if you believe in god you don't need a religion to follow. He was one of many millions of people who realized this at his time.
After some generations some of the holy people realized that if people think of you as holy, they fear/respect you and this grants you power, and all they wanted was power. So this religion was only an excuse for them to gain more power and be corrupted for ever and ever until they die.
So a few thousands of years later, one of these guys called Jesus(Yoshua) who was more of a hippy and a make love not war kinda guy, and he was very bright as well, decided this use of religion is bad for mankind, and he decided to create a new religion, that worships the same god (as he also believed there is only one true god), only that will be accessible to everyone who would like to join, unlike the first one.
So a few hundred years later, some of the people in that new religion understood what some of the people in the first religion understood thousands of years before - when you're considered holy you have power over people. So that group became corrupt as well. And their new trick was to tell their poor mental slaves, that if they will not do everything they tell them to do, they will suffer eternal pain and suffering. If they do what they tell them to do, they will enjoy eternal bliss.
So a few hundreds of years later, came a guy named Muhammad and decided those guys in the west have a point, and there must only be one god. So he decided to get to the chase and started massacring hundreds and thousands of people who weren't as holy as he was.
And some other guys from his religion are using the 2nd religion's trick of heaven and hell.
A couple hundred years later, a guy wrote about this in a forum, realizing if you believe in god you don't need a religion to follow. He was one of many millions of people who realized this at his time.
My mom was a young lady when she decided to join a certain church (cuz a boy, typical teenage stuff). When she got there she had opened her eyes to a new world. She began losing herself: losing her fun personality, stopped wearing makeup and sadly became "religious". She befriended 2 other older women (one who coincidentally was the hot guy's mom and his aunt). She began to meet more people and bumped into my lame narcissist father and his mom. Now the other lady she met said "that's my sister and nephew and I love them, but they crazy." Sadly, she continued to hang out with them and got manipulated by them by using "the word". My moms parents even tried to worn her that she was changing and being used but she didn't listen to them because they weren't always the best parents.
Those psychos and 2 kids later, God began to reveal stuff about "this church". The pastor was a whore who obviously had a spirit of lust, he said if u were a woman u couldn't wear pants, makeup, or preach because "You're going to hell." , but the man were allowed to do anything wear anything, cheat on wives, steal, lie, etc. while the women looked like roadkill and were broken. My mom began to catch on to this and luckily left and began learning the Bible FOR HERSELF! God said in His Word that a man who commits adultry is pretty much a non-believer and that a teacher who knowingly misleads his students and manipulates while teaching the word of God IS A WHORE AND WILL BE GRAVELY PUNISHED. he portrayed himself to be someone he wasn't, torn down women's self-esteem, and turned young boys (including my dad) into male chauvinist narcissist!
A guy in the early 90s was on tv and was talking about how Jesus told him that He was gonna start dropping false "teachers" and later "the leader of the cult" (pastor) dropped dead and everyone of his daughters (who claimed he probably went to he'll for torturing their mama) and widow received PEACE!
Years later my mom was going to another church. My dad's narcissism kept him from providing for his family and momwas worried how we were gonna survive on a penny. She began praying and casted her care on God. Flipping through a phone book she found a job and God began to bless her where she wouldn't have to worry about feeding her now 3 kids and putting clothes on our backs. When asked by church members how she suddenly became successful, she gave God credit but the people looked at her like she was a liar because EVEN BECAUSE THEY WENT TO CHURCH, THEY STILL HAD NO FAITH. When they asked my dad he took credit like he was God (typical lying narcissist). My dad never worked, was lazy and destroyed MY self-esteem! But that wasn't the end.
Over the years we have moved, stopped attending church and was still being taken care of. My mom became a savvy businesswoman and my dad a convincing poser. All of a sudden we started losing money and sight of my dad. My mom fell on her knees and asked God to reveal exactly what He was doing and to remove any evil from her life. Outta nowhere my mom was blessed with a son which put my dad to step up and start taking care of his family like a real man. He didn't want to do it and began throwing tantrums and showing his ass and abandoned us leaving us hungry and without lights!
It hit a breaking point for my sisters and mom and baby brother. We asked my dad's mom fir help and she refused until my mom talked to him and apologize. WHAAAT?!! then God pulled the wool off our eyes! Come to find out, NY dad had been running through all the money buying steak dinners for himself, sleeping around, driving my mom's dream car into the ground and portraying to be someone he's not! HE WAS A SHEEP IN WOLVES CLOTHING! And my crazy grandmother used my mom to look good to people then when troubles came, she pointed the finger at us! Long story short they REALLY were psychos and my mom divorced him and his mama!
My older sister was talking to one of my dad's cousins and revealed that her dad was a womanizing narcissist too who literally wore her mom out to death to where she diedin her 30s. She revealed that my dad used to be sweet and quiet until he went to that cult church! So I guess that's why but my dad can change if he wants too, whatever!
We were at rock bottom w/ hardly any support. My mom asked God why he would do this and He said because he wanted to pull the covers off a big lie to protect her and reveal the adversary! We were in an abusive manipulating family and didn't know it! He blessed my mom with a son later on so that she could get a break for working so hard and so my dad would be out of the house to break the curse of lust off of mthe men in our family (and plus my mom always wanted a boy!) Everything that was taken from us, God promised to give us back and double it without being without an abuser! And he's blessing us with the stuff we lost (like a car), awesome!
moral of story: DON'T FALL INTO RELIGION BUT A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS! RELIGION WAS CREATED BY SATAN TO CONFUSE, DIVIDE AND CONQUER ALL PEOPLE THAT BELONG TO GOD! Being a Christian is easy. All you have to do is accept Christ as your Savior AND YOU'RE IMMEDIATELY SAVED--NO HELL OR CONDEMNATION! ITS ABOUT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS so you won't go through what my mom did because of "religion"!
Those psychos and 2 kids later, God began to reveal stuff about "this church". The pastor was a whore who obviously had a spirit of lust, he said if u were a woman u couldn't wear pants, makeup, or preach because "You're going to hell." , but the man were allowed to do anything wear anything, cheat on wives, steal, lie, etc. while the women looked like roadkill and were broken. My mom began to catch on to this and luckily left and began learning the Bible FOR HERSELF! God said in His Word that a man who commits adultry is pretty much a non-believer and that a teacher who knowingly misleads his students and manipulates while teaching the word of God IS A WHORE AND WILL BE GRAVELY PUNISHED. he portrayed himself to be someone he wasn't, torn down women's self-esteem, and turned young boys (including my dad) into male chauvinist narcissist!
A guy in the early 90s was on tv and was talking about how Jesus told him that He was gonna start dropping false "teachers" and later "the leader of the cult" (pastor) dropped dead and everyone of his daughters (who claimed he probably went to he'll for torturing their mama) and widow received PEACE!
Years later my mom was going to another church. My dad's narcissism kept him from providing for his family and momwas worried how we were gonna survive on a penny. She began praying and casted her care on God. Flipping through a phone book she found a job and God began to bless her where she wouldn't have to worry about feeding her now 3 kids and putting clothes on our backs. When asked by church members how she suddenly became successful, she gave God credit but the people looked at her like she was a liar because EVEN BECAUSE THEY WENT TO CHURCH, THEY STILL HAD NO FAITH. When they asked my dad he took credit like he was God (typical lying narcissist). My dad never worked, was lazy and destroyed MY self-esteem! But that wasn't the end.
Over the years we have moved, stopped attending church and was still being taken care of. My mom became a savvy businesswoman and my dad a convincing poser. All of a sudden we started losing money and sight of my dad. My mom fell on her knees and asked God to reveal exactly what He was doing and to remove any evil from her life. Outta nowhere my mom was blessed with a son which put my dad to step up and start taking care of his family like a real man. He didn't want to do it and began throwing tantrums and showing his ass and abandoned us leaving us hungry and without lights!
It hit a breaking point for my sisters and mom and baby brother. We asked my dad's mom fir help and she refused until my mom talked to him and apologize. WHAAAT?!! then God pulled the wool off our eyes! Come to find out, NY dad had been running through all the money buying steak dinners for himself, sleeping around, driving my mom's dream car into the ground and portraying to be someone he's not! HE WAS A SHEEP IN WOLVES CLOTHING! And my crazy grandmother used my mom to look good to people then when troubles came, she pointed the finger at us! Long story short they REALLY were psychos and my mom divorced him and his mama!
My older sister was talking to one of my dad's cousins and revealed that her dad was a womanizing narcissist too who literally wore her mom out to death to where she diedin her 30s. She revealed that my dad used to be sweet and quiet until he went to that cult church! So I guess that's why but my dad can change if he wants too, whatever!
We were at rock bottom w/ hardly any support. My mom asked God why he would do this and He said because he wanted to pull the covers off a big lie to protect her and reveal the adversary! We were in an abusive manipulating family and didn't know it! He blessed my mom with a son later on so that she could get a break for working so hard and so my dad would be out of the house to break the curse of lust off of mthe men in our family (and plus my mom always wanted a boy!) Everything that was taken from us, God promised to give us back and double it without being without an abuser! And he's blessing us with the stuff we lost (like a car), awesome!
moral of story: DON'T FALL INTO RELIGION BUT A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS! RELIGION WAS CREATED BY SATAN TO CONFUSE, DIVIDE AND CONQUER ALL PEOPLE THAT BELONG TO GOD! Being a Christian is easy. All you have to do is accept Christ as your Savior AND YOU'RE IMMEDIATELY SAVED--NO HELL OR CONDEMNATION! ITS ABOUT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS so you won't go through what my mom did because of "religion"!
