How to create connection and community | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

How to create connection and community

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by slant, Jan 25, 2021.

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  1. philostam

    philostam Permanent Fixture

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    Yeah, makes total sense.

    Lol, yeah, Well from what I see you do a lot of introspection, reordering your internal world etc. Seems like an introverted judging function in action (I do the same).

    You do have the typical Ne quirkiness on occasion, but I definitely feel it's not your main thing.
     
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  2. TedyBo

    TedyBo Lucky

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    you are a very good speaker. I know it's hard to talk over the Internet, but I think you have the ability. and you can do it yourself, follow your idea.
     
  3. Sometimes Yeah

    Sometimes Yeah Community Member

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    INFJs making friends... I have some suggestions:

    * Don't be negative, especially in "guessing" people's intentions or character. You just come across as a repulsive judgemental prick.

    * Don't project your moods onto others, or blame them for your moods. Your feelings come from you, and if they're negative, at least don't insist on spreading them on everyone else.

    * Actually listen to what people are saying, instead of just picking out keywords, so you can categorise the person. You come across as distracted and trying to start a fight.

    * Don't pretend you're cool, popular, alpha, etc. The reality is that as an introverted intuitive, you're not socially awesome, and never will be. Acceptance of your socially awkward self, is probably prerequisite to others accepting you.

    *Don't try to hide your feelings of social inferiority with faux superiority and contrived condescension. You just end up looking delusional and mentally ill, with some sort of personality Napoleon complex.

    *If you dislike something or someone, you don't need to blast the airwaves with passive agressive bullshit. Just skip onto some topic or person you like, until you find a common interest. Most people are relatively happy, and don't appreciate a negative response to everything.
     
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  4. Sloe Djinn

    Sloe Djinn Idiot with Internet Access.

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    And don't mind others' attempts to neg the universe into submission...
     
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  5. OP
    slant

    slant M O U L T I N G
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    The question was not for INFJs ; it was for the reader in specific.

    How to you, personally, create a community, in your own life?
     
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  6. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    People are gonna hate that, lol, but I don't disagree with the main thrust of it.

    Like @Sloe Djinn mentioned, though, I think it's probably unnecessary to include all the little digs or judgements in there (which I've highlighted in red).

    Ironically, you're doing the same imputation of intentions and ad hominem speculations about their fundamental nature as you accuse 'them' of doing in your first point, and some might interpret that you're doing this to be deliberately contentious.

    I don't think you are, and I can empathise with the frustrations, but you can communicate all those points effectively without being a raging asshole about it. That's just counterproductive to any useful dialogue we might have about these features, and will just drive people deeper into self-protective modes.
     
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  7. Sometimes Yeah

    Sometimes Yeah Community Member

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    In principle, I agree that such a critical tone isn't the ideal tone for what I said.

    However, I wrote it for this particular "community" of INFJs, after observing how they behave when they're not "doing their own thing" in their insulated blogs. This site doesn't build community, it group-attacks newcomers or people who ponder scenarios which the old curmudgeons here dislike.

    @Hostarius correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the intuitive impression that you have been here a good while, but probably have not been more accepted (integrated into the "community"), than when you first joined.

    I think this site doesn't want to build community, and no matter how long someone engages here, the level of acceptance/integration will remain static. My criticisms are at some of the fundamental obstacles to community, I see here.
     
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  8. OP
    slant

    slant M O U L T I N G
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    Actually I don't want to hear about @Hostarius 's perception of him being accepted in this community or not in this thread, if you want to discuss that please go elsewhere, we have a history and it's wildly inappropriate @Sometimes Yeah
     
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  9. OP
    slant

    slant M O U L T I N G
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    Don't ruin my thread. I'm going to be pissed. This was a nice thread.
     
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  10. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    That's good. Maybe an apology is in order?

    It can 'group-attack' people, as you put it, but it can also make great efforts to integrate people and to understand them. Don't forget that it was the same community who defended you, too.

    It can be unjust and just, unreasonable and reasonable, unfair and fair. All of these things simultaneously it can be. This is just how communities work.

    I don't feel like that. I feel pretty well accepted and integrated.

    I think the INTJ personality is a difficult one to live with, because it's essentially hardwired to seek out problems, identify them and attempt to fix them, so it can seem to the subjective pilot of the INTJ mech that everything is fucked, when that's not the case. Most things aren't fucked. Most things are fine. But the part of reality that gets the INTJ's focus just tends to be the things that are fucked, or are dysfunctional, or could be improved.

    They're rarely ever wrong about these things, actually, but they can develop an unbalanced impression with this problem-centric tunnel-vision, in addition to finding themselves in oppositional positions more often than others simply because of this same problem-centric focus.

    So the INTJ is always going to be a 'critic' in some sense, if it isn't in charge - that's them operating how they 'should' operate - but the only difference is if the INTJ chooses to critique from the 'inside' or 'outside'.

    It's an easy choice to make to do it from the 'inside'. You don't have to erase your entire personality in order to 'conform', you just have to open up the vision to acknowledge those areas where things are working, and address the community as if you were a part of it (which you are), which means not engaging in personal attacks, insults and the like.

    Again, I suggest that you open up your vision to include everything that is working. I've definitely seen some olive branches to extended to you, for instance.
     
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  11. OP
    slant

    slant M O U L T I N G
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    Stop discussing this in my thread. Move it elsewhere please.
     
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  12. Sometimes Yeah

    Sometimes Yeah Community Member

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    How to create community: I don't want to hear from everyone. Please go away. Slant 2021
     
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  13. Wyote

    Wyote (#/-\[]$ ([]`/[]'|'[-
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    The best way to build a community is to collect a bunch of people together who aren't willing to listen or compromise.
    Pretty sure.
     
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  14. John K

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    I'm pretty introverted, and I'm not really very happy in casual social settings, where the primary focus of being together is effectively meeting people in the context of small talk and the usual social games that go on in these sort of situations. What works well for me is to join groups that have a particular focus and purpose, where the things that we are doing provide the framework for people coming together and sharing. The church groups I belong to are like that, and the work project teams I belonged to and ran before I retired were also like that. I find that these sort of groupings bridge the gap between people who are quite different temperamentally and we come to value the way the differences are complementary - I find that my longer standing friendships have often been born in these sorts of situations.

    The forum is rather like the sort of group that I'm thinking of, though it's purpose may be more diffuse than those. It's here to bring together people who are closest to INFJ in type and give them a social space where they can be in a relative majority for once in their lives, and where they can explore their own personality orientation without the sort of clash that they encounter all the time in communities where they are usually in a minority of one. By 'clash' I don't mean argument, but where they continually feel they have to give way to other personality orientations, otherwise they are not understood. By their nature, the INFJ outlook has much in common with xNFx types in general, and that attracts these here as well, along with xNTx types who enjoy the vibe this creates and have similar problems in the world at large. For some of us, this may be the first time in our lives that we do not feel in a social minority, and on the periphery.
     
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  15. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ INFP

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    @slant -- Sorry to see that edgy teddy bear tried to derail your thread with his usual pointless rants.

    I connect by opening up to the possibility of a trusting relationship. It's a kind of phase of moderate trust, so to speak, just as a preliminary to giving my full trust. I start sharing more personal things about myself, from time to time and sometimes with a humorous tinge, and see if the other party does as well. Openness is fundamental to this--asking a lot of questions, being interested in what the other person has to say.

    Hard to say how to build a community, as I have never 'built' one. Openness and kindness are key, of course, but also, no doubt, an ability to make strong decisions when the community is being affected by toxicity. When it comes to this forum, this means also trusting your mods to make the right decision in such cases. The fact that the mods here consult each other constantly and make decisions collectively is very reassuring and very healthy.
     
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  16. John K

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    Just wanted to agree with this Ren. The vibe is an essential part of this place and it feels like that had been sustained tolerantly but firmly for a long time. A lot of issues here come from a lack of understanding of how feeling actually works.
     
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  17. OP
    slant

    slant M O U L T I N G
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    I think that's crucial and a pattern I see in a lot of the responses.

    These are key, too.

    I didn't share my own perspective so I think I will now to facilitate further conversation and cuz I want to contribute of course.

    My experience with building community starts probably when I was 15, around the time that I joined this forum. I helped to start a nonprofit organization for the children of parents or people who were in recovery that was less of a support group like Al anon and more about promoting a sense of wellbeing with these children and teens, giving them a community and place to go and hang out so that we could build their self esteem which in my experience is that #1 factor in whether a person turns to drugs or alcohol in an unhealthy way.

    In that group we had structure and tradition and in my opinion that's a core component of any successful community. More importantly, everyone had a say and we voted on decisions so it gave us a feeling of ownership and investment.

    You see this a lot in corporate cultures that are successful as well, like WinCo for example, giving employees actual stakes in the company gives them motivation to fight for it. You have to have a certain level of personal investment to want to see a community thrive and nurture it.

    Food is central, I think. Which has been a point of contention for me because of my issues around food but many successful communities have food traditions, whether it just be sharing a meal together, cooking together or having a specific type of food that is only eaten during the time that the community assembles. The book I'm reading by a rabbi mentioned in terms of solidifying a tradition, the more senses that are involved the more effective it is and that's true.

    Another example of a community I was part of was a specific open mic circuit. It had a way stronger sense of community than the others that I went to and I attribute that to two things:

    A) a strong sense of tradition that bolstered the community feeling

    And

    B) leadership that defined the culture and enforced it


    Myself, and a fellow INFJ comedian, had a difficult time with B. We are both STRONG proponents of freedom of speech and a comedian got banned from the open mic for being a racist and making others feel unsafe, despite the fact that he never actually said anything specifically racist on stage. He was a master manipulator and later through my own research I did realize that he was a white supremacist, but there was never any proof provided by the host, and it seemed like accusations because of that.

    I fought against the host at that time on principle and I'm not sure if I regret that because I think decisions like that should be challenged if nobody speaks up at all, however over time I've realized it was the right decision to make and I fully understand why it was done.

    In order for a community to be successful there has to be that sense of culture as well as safety. The culture has to be defined:

    This is what this group is about and this is what is expected of you as being a member of this group. This is what we value and this is what will not be tolerated.

    It is then up to those in leadership positions to enforce those codes of conducts, and as members of those communities we submit to John Locke's social contract: this is how we must behave if we want to be part of this community, we consent to certain freedoms we have on an individual level being suspended in order to do so.

    In my experience, whether it be a workplace or a voluntary socializing community, it will fail if either the culture is not defined OR the culture is defined but not reenforced. Both are vital.

    And unfortunately we are not all good fits for a community. This, too, is something I learned the hard way. I have been part of online communities where I did not really fit in with the culture but I wanted to belong and tried to stick around. This resulted in endless conflict, usually ending with the admins putting their foot down and banning me- not because I had broken and rule but because there were such character clashes that the preexisting members didn't feel like it was a fun place anymore to write and I had essentially broken down the unison of the group by my presence.

    The point is simply: if the group defines it's culture and you do not agree with it, attempting to change it single handedly will either result in you being kicked out of the community or the entire community being broken down over it. There is a degree of respect required to be part of a community and this is why it is said some people don't "play well with others" or "work well in groups" because if you are unwilling to submit to what you don't agree to for the sake of preservation of the fabric of the group you are in turn destroying it.
     
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  18. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ INFP

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    Agree. I think that to some extent this relates to ego. If you are not willing to tone down your ego for the sake of membership in a community, then maybe said community is not for you. I'm sure this can be difficult to accept for some people. The impulse to try to change a specific community for the sake of alignment with one's ideals/preferences is a strange one, given the vast choice of online communities one has on the internet, but in any case it is never going to work if the members of the community don't agree with it. And if the reason for them not agreeing is pinned down to their being tone-deaf, or conservative of their privileges, or whatever, then all the more reason to give up trying to be a member of it. You can't have a peaceful community with people you fundamentally don't respect and whose intentions you don't trust. Anyone is welcome to have those views. But it is obvious that said views won't be shared by the community itself.

    I have also been one of those people in the past (not in respect to this forum, but at an earlier point) and I realise now that every time it was down to my own ego, and the paradox of wanting to be accepted by people I didn't even like!
     
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  19. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / Baroque Spinoza / ≅ INFP

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    Really? Never got that vibe from you, but maybe you make a special effort for the INFJ forum :grinning:
     
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  20. Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    I think this is only true to a degree.

    There are occasions where the group is violating its own values or rules, or where group dynamics sweep people up into positions and causes they wouldn't otherwise take.

    I don't think it's a sound principle to defer to 'group judgement' on faith, for obvious reasons, otherwise we'd just be entrenching the impulse to ostracise, and the 'values' of the group wouldn't be consistent over time; they'd shift with temporary alliances and immediate emotional states. We'd have to therefore claim that any minority population anywhere who were suddenly scapegoated were somehow acting out of 'ego'.
     
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