Homosexual relations, natural or not?

[just me]

As for the scriptural, anti-homosexual beliefs, I would add those to be two separate topics to me. My beliefs are pro-natural. Homosexuality is against all nature. That has nothing to do with scripture. Homosexuals cannot have children because it is against nature. Their wanting to adopt children is selfish. They cannot see that? Their choices in the way they live should not be placed on innocent children. I was obviously drained earlier, like most all infjs get. We can talk more as time progresses. I find it amusing you blame this on my religion. I still go to sleep tonight with no anger or grudge. I feel no need for a fight. We can discuss this without all that. I hope to have you see this is not about religion to me. I watched a fawn stick its head out the thicket late one evening. It was too scared to step out. Someone had obviously harvested its mother for food. A young buck I had been watching saw this, too. I had decided not to kill the young buck and just watch it a little earlier. This spike walked, or should I say pranced, over to the fawn about 100 yards away. They smelled each others' scents on their noses, and the spike walked off along the edge of the swamp to feed. The young fawn eased out and followed it. I also saw this to talk about today. Some of you guys are entirely too sensitive. The young buck gave the fawn assurance it was alright to come out and feed. Big brother is what I thought.....he was being like a big brother to a child. I have no problem with that and saw it in nature last hunting season. I could have killed legally either of the two or possibly both of them, but chose to watch that day. I ended the season with one deer for food. I watched eleven walk by me. Bucks hang out by themselves most of the year until the does go into heat. Then they fight for territory and only the strongest of the bucks can mate with the does, unless the buck is away and a doe in heat comes by......they may try at the risk of a fight. That is nature's way of the survival of the herd. The bucks have no interest in sex until they smell that smell coming on. Other bucks do not have that smell. I am not one to place your feet to the fire unless you leave me no choice. I cannot enjoy this forum trying to fight with one of the main characters here that I enjoy reading from. If you want to pursue this as anti-Christian you are wrong to do so....you must add the things I see in nature that enforces my stance.
Actually, you MUST do nothing but try to tear me apart in your anger. If you want to discuss this like two adults we can. If you want to be angry toward me, every one here has lost because of your anger. I have to rest for work.

 

[Satya]

As for the scriptural, anti-homosexual beliefs, I would add those to be two separate topics to me. My beliefs are pro-natural. Homosexuality is against all nature. That has nothing to do with scripture. Homosexuals cannot have children because it is against nature. Their wanting to adopt children is selfish. They cannot see that? Their choices in the way they live should not be placed on innocent children. I was obviously drained earlier, like most all infjs get. We can talk more as time progresses. I find it amusing you blame this on my religion. I still go to sleep tonight with no anger or grudge. I feel no need for a fight. We can discuss this without all that.

I didn't really want to get into this topic in this thread, but since you have decided to go here...

Your definition of "natural" is that which is in accordance with God's design, not what actually occurs in nature. So the whole "pro natural" argument is just another way of saying that you believe in Paul's conception of gender roles as understood through a teleological view of the world. It has everything to do with scripture, because homosexuality has been observed in over 400 different species of animals and is especially common among social animals, particularly primates. It makes up a substantial amount of the sexual activity of Bonobo chimps, our closest genetic hominid relative, and is used as a social bonding agent.

Also primates, and early humans were no exception, typically form tribes in which the males go off to hunt for food, while the females stay in groups to protect the offspring. In addition to that, if you wish to make an argument those who are incapalbe of having their own children should be forbidden from adopting, then you are also making an argument against all infertile heterosexual couples. I see nothing selfish about wanting to raise a child. It is an incredible sacrifice of energy and resources to do so. I see it as incredibly selfish to impose your religious beliefs on others and deny them an opportunity to do good in the world. I find it amusing that you think this has nothing to do with religion.

 

[just me]

For your sake, I will state I edited my post above yours and see you answered while I was editing. Sorry...thought you were asleep. I was until now.

 

[Satya]

I cannot enjoy this forum trying to fight with one of the main characters here that I enjoy reading from. If you want to pursue this as anti-Christian you are wrong to do so....you must add the things I see in nature that enforces my stance.

I'm sorry to say that nature does not support your stance.

[YOUTUBE]ggl5ZGaJFFM&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

Actually, you MUST do nothing but try to tear me apart in your anger. If you want to discuss this like two adults we can. If you want to be angry toward me, every one here has lost because of your anger. I have to rest for work.

I'm not angry at you. To be frank, I pity people who hold the kind of misconceptions you hold. You don't know any better. You were raised a certain way and you look to the world to support the views with which you were raised. I challenge misconceptions in order to educate people and in order to stop the spread of ignorance.

 

[alcyone]

Is this a mediation or a debate?

 

[Satya]

Is this a mediation or a debate?

The mediation is over, and now its become a debate. I could probably split this off into a new thread, but I'll leave it to some other mod to decide whether that is appropriate.

 

[just me]

I am not around other animals of such behaviour. I am influenced by what I see in the woods. I do remember taking two young teenage girls to a zoo many moons ago with my wife. There sat a little monkey, and I must say he was a little cute. While the two teenage girls were standing there, he started playing with his hand on his sex organ staring at them. I thought how his being there may be something similar to being in prison. Homosexual actions are sometimes practiced there because the men assert themselves over others....most of the time quite forcibly, which is understandingly so. This may be a sign of frustration or a desire for power or something else I have no way of understanding. They have no sexual partner so they force themselves on someone else. I must say that is certainly not natural.

 

[just me]

Is this a mediation or a debate?

I do not understand your mediation here. I wish to discuss our differences but do not wish to argue. I consider the past as water under the bridge.

 

[Satya]

I am not around other animals of such behaviour. I am influenced by what I see in the woods. I do remember taking two young teenage girls to a zoo many moons ago with my wife. There sat a little monkey, and I must say he was a little cute. While the two teenage girls were standing there, he started playing with his hand on his sex organ staring at them. I thought how his being there may be something similar to being in prison. Homosexual actions are sometimes practiced there because the men assert themselves over others....most of the time quite forcibly, which is understandingly so. This may be a sign of frustration or a desire for power or something else I have no way of understanding. They have no sexual partner so they force themselves on someone else. I must say that is certainly not natural.

The observations I stated were of animals in the wild. I posted a video above in order to substantiate my arguments. As far as rape, that has nothing to do with homosexuality or heterosexuality. You would not judge all of heterosexuality by the men who rape women would you? It makes no more sense to judge all of homosexuality by men who rape men. The majority of gay people form consensual relationships, just as the majority of straight people form consensual relationships.

 

[Silently Honest]

Is this a mediation or a debate?

It's both, and I'm not moving anything. Please both of you keep your crap here, and don't spill it out into the rest of the forums,

 

[just me]

I wish to step back into my sleep assured we can be civil in our discussions.
I will read any more discussion here tomorrow and we can continue our converstaion further as work permits. Let not the sun go down upon your wrath. If you wish to place this elsewhere, Satya, you have my agreement and no foull will be called. It would be nice to have whatever the mediation was marked as moved to the discussion. Good night to all.

 

[Satya]

Let not the sun go down upon your wrath.

As I said, I don't feel anger for people who hold misconceptions of homosexuality, only pity.

 

[alcyone]

I do not understand your mediation here. I wish to discuss our differences but do not wish to argue. I consider the past as water under the bridge.

Threads in this part of the forum are for when a dispute gets personal and the parties involved need to hash out their differences.

In other words the first major complaint was Von Hase's with yourself (justme) and mayflow chiming in.

Since you've since engaged in further debate regarding homosexuality in the animal kingdom etcetera, this is no longer a mediation of personality problems. In which case a new thread should be started in the forum (so all of us can jump in).

I am jumping in and commenting with the hopes that both of you will get the hint and voluntarily move the debating to the main forum area.

Did that spell it out enough for you justme?

 

[VH]

I've known many homosexuals who were resentful toward Christianity. In fact, I can't recall any who weren't. The hostility seems to stem from the fact that most Christians view homosexuality as an anathema of some sort, and some Christians treat homosexuals badly because of this. I can understand how having someone insist that it is wrong for you to love the way that you love could foster hostility. I can also understand how easy it would be to blame a large degree of society's prejudices against homosexuals on being rooted in Christianity.

It seems that perhaps the reason for your hostility against scripture is that scripture is what these sorts of people use to validate their mistreatment of homosexuals.

Scriptures also state that God loves everyone, no matter who they are, how they are, or what they do. God loves gay people just as much as straight people. According to the bible, God loves gay people just as much as he loves the most devout of Christians, as well as the people who don't have a clue what it means to be a Christian but seem to think they are anyway.

I'm sorry if you've had to endure hardships, even the subtle ones that add up over time, at the hands of people who don't know how to practice their religion.

*hug*

 

[Naxx]

Homosexual actions are sometimes practiced there because the men assert themselves over others....most of the time quite forcibly, which is understandingly so. This may be a sign of frustration or a desire for power or something else I have no way of understanding. They have no sexual partner so they force themselves on someone else. I must say that is certainly not natural.

Is it really that hard to believe that some people are born straight and some gay?

I'm sorry if you've had to endure hardships, even the subtle ones that add up over time, at the hands of people who don't know how to practice their religion.

And who the hell is to judge who is practicing their religion "correctly"? You? Our president? Book written by many scribes? Spock?

Scriptures also state that God loves everyone

I can talk about scriptures as well, hows this one in relation to love?


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


Stoning him with stones, that he die... for disobeying parents; thats classic.

 

[Naxx]

The fact that we all share our deep feelings and beliefs is what makes us all INFJs. Let's discuss our similarities, not our differences.

It's true, it's nice to relate to others on deeply thought ideas but it's also refreshing to gain new ideas and perspectives.

However I couldn't imagine living a life where I never discuss differences. To me that would be a life without color and excitement. I want differences I want intelligence debates, I want to be proven wrong, I want to see my downfalls. How else will I grow, certainly not purely by universal conformity.

 

[just me]

I would much rather be pitied by you, Satya, than to be brought up by you.
The feelings we have are etched in stone. I will not look at your movies; you, most likely the same with my songs. You pity me and I feel sorry for you.
Further discussions regarding this will not lead anywhere regarding the differences in the ways we see things. Thank you for showing back up, VH.
I, too, can understand how someone with these types of problems would hate Christianity. Satya calls mine misconceptions; I call his problems.
Where do we go? If everyone were homosexual, there would be nobody in a few generations to discuss these things.
My friend, Naxx....that is old testament.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Although I would like to support Satya's argument about homosexuality in nature. Homosexuality is actually much more common that most people realize; dolphins even have homosexual sex in order to maintain good standings in their groups.

 

[IndigoSensor]

I would much rather be pitied by you, Satya, than to be brought up by you.
The feelings we have are etched in stone. I will not look at your movies; you, most likely the same with my songs. You pity me and I feel sorry for you.
Further discussions regarding this will not lead anywhere regarding the differences in the ways we see things. Thank you for showing back up, VH.
I, too, can understand how someone with these types of problems would hate Christianity. Satya calls mine misconceptions; I call his problems.
Where do we go? If everyone were homosexual, there would be nobody in a few generations to discuss these things.
My friend, Naxx....that is old testament.

I'm sorry, you cant prove religion, you just can't. It is completly subjective. The feelings you have for someone should not be dictated by someone else, or by what something happens to say. It causes NO harm to you what so ever, therefore should not be restricted. I'm sorry, but I am not going to hold back, I think it is mildly pathetic that you would prefer to be pityed by someone.

 

[just me]

I'm sorry, you cant prove religion, you just can't. It is completly subjective. The feelings you have for someone should not be dictated by someone else, or by what something happens to say. It causes NO harm to you what so ever, therefore should not be restricted. I'm sorry, but I am not going to hold back, I think it is mildly pathetic that you would prefer to be pityed by someone.

I have no choice in the matter. Satya pities me. I cannot change that. Therefore, I would rather be pitied by him than raised by him. I can keep my distance that way from his negative influence. Please note I have no choice in the matter. Once again, religion has nothing to do with this subject when a conflict of opinion is all you have.

Sides are being chosen. Someone is getting exactly what they wanted.