This was too well written not to share...
A friend of mine in real life said:
Gender-based Selective Blindness
- Thread starter VH
- Start date
I freaking love you man *man hugs*
Sadly this is so true. I think part of it is women or at least some don't know what they want. They want a man who is new age and sensitive yet he can't not have a male gender role. Women for what ever reason love to say they want this and then fall back on the old gender role. Its subtle but its there.
Whats sadder is many nice, good amazing guys. Are so worn from rejection and relationship related strife they become cold, bitter and cynical. They turn themsevles form the world of relationships and someone loses the chance at potential partner. I don't think many know how lard this is to not do. I've wanted so many times to simply turn away and give up.
Its funny but I think the women in my life ruined me in a way. They told how to treat a lady and that was well. And all the things women say but they don't really mean. Or I should say that you treat your wife this way. But this treatment keeps you from getting any women.
Now I know a not everything that revolves around my issues is nice guy related but trust me a good junk is. Just because I have some restraint doesn't make me any less male. And no I don't need to be the alpha to be ok with who I am.
One last thought. Just because we are nice doesn't mean were aren't passionate. You would be surprised the fire that many men hold, but don't stupidly flaunt.
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Reading this completely true, yet so foreignly profound. The media, high school, college, and our own expectations have destroyed so many exceptional chances to "find love and give it all away."
May the gambles of our lives be the gambles fit for living.
Thank you for this.
May the gambles of our lives be the gambles fit for living.
Thank you for this.
I have a tendency to fall hard for those I intentionally friend zone. I never end up taking the plunge either. I usually know if I'm going to date someone right away and whether or not I'll be able to be "just friends" with them.
This was well written. Thanks for sharing.
This was well written. Thanks for sharing.
It saddens me to think how easily we seem to embrace illusion and reject reality...men and women both. We are too much products of our culture I fear, and our culture absolutely thrives on illusion. Oh well, we all live in a time and a place...our time and place has tricky bits all its own.
The article has some fine points - like friendships are really overrated. I would trade ten of my friends to just a kiss from the woman I love. And it would be a bargain.
Then I notice quite a lot of bitching and blame shifting. Maybe it's my "J"-ness or something else but I would rather devote my time to finding solutions. Life is not fair and people are not equal - accept it and move on.
As for "Selective Blindness" it does have a more common name "self-deception". Women are equipped with very sensitive detectors and can easily spot when a guy is interested in them sexually. Then they have a choice: either react to it somehow (positively or negatively) or pretend that it's not here. Reacting means opening oneself to the possibility of hurting and being hurt, showing some spine. It's no wonder that most women take the easy way out. They justify their behavior by "I don't feel anything for him", "he's a looser", "I could find a better one" and so on. And it makes life hard for the guy who falls for it. Eventually he might start to believe that he really is a looser and unable to provoke girl's feelings.
Then I notice quite a lot of bitching and blame shifting. Maybe it's my "J"-ness or something else but I would rather devote my time to finding solutions. Life is not fair and people are not equal - accept it and move on.
As for "Selective Blindness" it does have a more common name "self-deception". Women are equipped with very sensitive detectors and can easily spot when a guy is interested in them sexually. Then they have a choice: either react to it somehow (positively or negatively) or pretend that it's not here. Reacting means opening oneself to the possibility of hurting and being hurt, showing some spine. It's no wonder that most women take the easy way out. They justify their behavior by "I don't feel anything for him", "he's a looser", "I could find a better one" and so on. And it makes life hard for the guy who falls for it. Eventually he might start to believe that he really is a looser and unable to provoke girl's feelings.
I agree. Life is not fair. Accept it and move on.
I also agree that women are equipped with very sensitive detectors to spot the men that they are interested in. However, I think you're extrapolating things from there in a direction other than the truth. The one thing most of us 'nice guys', especially INFJs, can't seem to understand is that women want to be taken - and by the strongest male possible. This is a biological instinct that all females have which is designed to keep the species strong. Women are not thinking to themselves "He's a loser" they're thinking to themselves "he's not strong enough to overcome my resistance" however, if she stays friend with you, something in her mind is saying "... but I'll stay friends with him because he's a great guy and someday he might become strong enough".
The problem with the friend zone is that it is created by us - the nice guys, because we want to honor what we think are the wishes of the women we care about. As an act of strength, we force ourselves not to take our women, and honor their wishes or whatever it is we think they want or need. We are willing to battle the entire world and ourselves, but not them. Ironic, really, because in doing so we prove to our women that we are not strong enough.
But, in truth these wishes are simply instinctive resistances to make us prove we are the strongest male. Women want the strongest male to also be the nice guy. But if they can't have both, they'll accept the strong guy because women don't choose their men. They allow their men to take them. Hear me on this, nice guys. If you really want to be a nice guy, then take your woman. Tell her she's yours and that's the end of it. Tell her that you want her and only her. Shoot down every objection she can bring to bear because you love her. Do this because if you - who will treat her better than any other man ever will - does not, some guy who won't treat her half as well as you will take her for himself, and the woman you love will have gotten cheated out of something wonderful. Protect her by taking her for yourself!
A classic example of this mentality is in the bible, where a guy raped a woman, and when he was done he got up and left her. She stopped him and said, "what you are doing now is worse than what you just did". She had less problem with being raped than she did with the guy not wanting to be keep her - because he proved he could take her if he wanted. This is a profound insight into the female psyche right here. In fact, did you know that more women fantasize about being raped than not? While this sounds insane, it isn't. These fantasies focus on a strong man taking them physically but also emotionally - which is the point - and of course taking them with the desire to keep them, not toss them aside when they are done.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not encouraging rape or anything of the sort. What I am saying is that women want a strong man - as in a strong personality - to take them - through exerting that strong personality, overcoming their mental and emotional resistances, and declaring ownership of them as a mate. They want a man to put his foot down and say 'this one is mine', and they want him to do so in spite of the obstacles they put up emotionally, and in spite of any obstacles the world might put up. A woman wants a man to prove to her that he really wants her.
If you're in the friend zone, you have a woman who is open to the idea of you proving yourself to be the strongest male, because ideally a woman wants a strong man who will also treat her well. You've proven half of it. She's still friends with you because she's leaving things open for you to prove the other half. But make no mistake, if you're in the friend zone, you've proven that you're not strong enough at the moment, and she is looking for someone strong enough.
Take her.
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It is indeed very contradictorial that women want a man to be sweet and caring and ... but in the end always fall for the strongest male. I'm no exception in this. It is difficult to understand why you always seem to be attracted to the strong and mostly uncaring men while you know very clearly that they are no good for you.
But I think you are completel right nobleheart. it is very much possible that women are still guided by there biological insticts. Men need to provide you with strong DNA and food and protection for you and your babies. And despite all the cultural changes this is still what women basically want. If you look at how animals court eachother, man, how much effort does the male has to put into it before he gets a shot?
Every time a "nice boy" falls for me I don't feel it, I want to but I don't. They are standing there looking to me with there puppy eyes "will you please take me" and I'm like "wtf??? DO SOMETHING, be strong and court me".
this is not how I want to think or act, but I seem not to be able to go against it.
to go further on this nobelheart, do you think that men should always take the first step in starting a relationship? These days it seems that both genders should do the effort to take the first step. But to me it seems unnatural. It feels more natural for the women to show the men that they are interested or not, flirting with them, showing that they are available and then the men has to step up and take them
But I think you are completel right nobleheart. it is very much possible that women are still guided by there biological insticts. Men need to provide you with strong DNA and food and protection for you and your babies. And despite all the cultural changes this is still what women basically want. If you look at how animals court eachother, man, how much effort does the male has to put into it before he gets a shot?
Every time a "nice boy" falls for me I don't feel it, I want to but I don't. They are standing there looking to me with there puppy eyes "will you please take me" and I'm like "wtf??? DO SOMETHING, be strong and court me".
this is not how I want to think or act, but I seem not to be able to go against it.
to go further on this nobelheart, do you think that men should always take the first step in starting a relationship? These days it seems that both genders should do the effort to take the first step. But to me it seems unnatural. It feels more natural for the women to show the men that they are interested or not, flirting with them, showing that they are available and then the men has to step up and take them
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That is true. Treating the other gender in a way you want yourself to be treated is a common pitfall for both men and women. We should pay more attention to what the others really need instead of what we think they need.
OK as for this one it's very slippery as to who chooses whom. Think for example of a similar situation in a customer-merchant relationship.
From my subjective experience it's much better to let the woman choose or at least make the appearance of it. It's an unspoken cultural norm and comfirmed by women who actually were in my bed.
I suppose you can sometimes enforce the feelings in a way described but it takes almost super-human abilities.
well, technically you DO feel something for that guy only it's not the sort of "wow, I'm falling in love with him". You feel the "wtf???"
And if you did say that in words it would be much easier for that guy to come with a better approach. Feelings come and go, they are not forever about that particular person. Because if you're on the other side then all you ever get is this silent disapproval - and it can go on for years. It's bad for physiological and sexual health, lowers self-esteem.
well, technically you DO feel something for that guy only it's not the sort of "wow, I'm falling in love with him". You feel the "wtf???"
yeah you are right but I can imagine what the conversation would be like.
- Hey I like you as a person but I'm not attracted to you because you are not putting in enough effort to persuate me.
*I gave you flowers isn't that what women want
- yeah but you should do it in a more masculine way you know, be the man, you have to take me, show me you are strong!
* o you want me to be like those bad guys who tread there women like shit, you want to be treated like shit then?
- no that is not what I'm talking about
* then what are you talking about?
- never mind...
any tips?
First of all; Woo, someone's bitter. There, I said it. No hard feelings.
But it's...actually somewhat true. This borders nicely to the Nice Guy Syndrome™, in the friendliness part, and the women staying away from the men because she apparently wants 'strong' men. But it's not. But it is.
Still..... /sigh as far as women's standard, someone in other website gave this maxim I so agreed with; "women want men who act like a jerk to everyone except them". It's the white knight ideal; strong -and- caring. For me, it's a false dichotomy to assume that man have to be a jerk if she doesn't like him, just as how women shouldn't be a) wild and bitchy to be liked, or b) man-hating to be a feminist. Growing a pair doesn't have to mean losing anything, no?
And sometimes, sometimes, they want wild, strong guys to play. To have fun, they said. It's just like men, I think. Sad reality, but.... let them play. They'll stop. And if they don't, are these kind of people THE people you want to be with, probably forever and ever?
And personal whine; To those hiding and not taking their chances, their loss, I say.
I know it's hard, I know it hurts, and it's probably impossible for myself too, but WHY oh WHY don't they take a chance FIRST. Assuming they are not the Nice Guys™ *which's a jerk hiding his insecurities and fear of rejection behind unassuming, friendly mask*. And I agreed, the possibility is risky, but to both parties, don't you think it's worth the risk?
As a gay guy, I can't help but looked with wincing eyes at these kind of complaint. Hey, at least most of the time, you still got a chance and not having another risk of being persecuted.
But it's...actually somewhat true. This borders nicely to the Nice Guy Syndrome™, in the friendliness part, and the women staying away from the men because she apparently wants 'strong' men. But it's not. But it is.
Still..... /sigh as far as women's standard, someone in other website gave this maxim I so agreed with; "women want men who act like a jerk to everyone except them". It's the white knight ideal; strong -and- caring. For me, it's a false dichotomy to assume that man have to be a jerk if she doesn't like him, just as how women shouldn't be a) wild and bitchy to be liked, or b) man-hating to be a feminist. Growing a pair doesn't have to mean losing anything, no?
And sometimes, sometimes, they want wild, strong guys to play. To have fun, they said. It's just like men, I think. Sad reality, but.... let them play. They'll stop. And if they don't, are these kind of people THE people you want to be with, probably forever and ever?
And personal whine; To those hiding and not taking their chances, their loss, I say.
I know it's hard, I know it hurts, and it's probably impossible for myself too, but WHY oh WHY don't they take a chance FIRST. Assuming they are not the Nice Guys™ *which's a jerk hiding his insecurities and fear of rejection behind unassuming, friendly mask*. And I agreed, the possibility is risky, but to both parties, don't you think it's worth the risk?
As a gay guy, I can't help but looked with wincing eyes at these kind of complaint. Hey, at least most of the time, you still got a chance and not having another risk of being persecuted.
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I've always found that the strongest males are the sweet and quiet ones. *shrug*
I've always been attracted to somewhat quiet, sweetheart men. Never know what fire is brewing up under all that calm. And when it comes out, it is definitely needed.
Besides, all an ass can do is bray.
I've always been attracted to somewhat quiet, sweetheart men. Never know what fire is brewing up under all that calm. And when it comes out, it is definitely needed.
Besides, all an ass can do is bray.
If you wont explain it in terms other people can understand you are never going to be understood.
to go further on this nobelheart, do you think that men should always take the first step in starting a relationship? These days it seems that both genders should do the effort to take the first step. But to me it seems unnatural. It feels more natural for the women to show the men that they are interested or not, flirting with them, showing that they are available and then the men has to step up and take them
I personally believe in equality, but with a chivalrous bent. I personally love it when a girl makes the first move, so long as it is a subtle move for my attention to get me started on chasing her, but I am happy to be the one to initiate. I think it is the woman's responsibility to keep a man interested by giving him signs that she is interested, but it is definitely the man's responsibility to chase her and be assertive about wanting her. I also believe in politeness and moving slowly because I believe in love, and to create a lasting love.
However, nature doesn't care one bit about anything but keeping the species as strong as possible. Nature doesn't care about love. Females are attracted to strong willed males - hence their fixation on all the masculine attributes like protection, providing, etc. Males are attracted to healthy females - hence our fixation on beauty. These two things keep the species strong and healthy.
Personally, I wish it weren't so, but nature is what nature is, and while it might not seem fair, it is equitable. Men have to meet a woman's expectations, and a woman has to meet a man's expectations. The day that men stop being attracted to women because of the way they look, is the day that women would no longer have the right to be attracted to strong men. Until then, that's just human nature. We have to accept it and work around it where we can.
A woman is not attracted to a pair of shoes because they are a strong provider. The analogy is not applicable. What a woman wants in a mate and from a mate are not at all synonymous with what they want from inanimate objects, or from polite members of society. Women want to be treated well and with respect. They want to be shown love. No one is doubting or refuting that. However, these are wants. Women need a strong man. When a strong man also meets a woman's wants, then the situation is ideal for a woman.
Nice guys take note: If you truly want to be everything the woman you love needs, keep doing everything you are already doing. Treat her well, and with respect. Talk to her. Listen to her. Buy her things. Be kind, sweet, patient, and most of all love her. The point I am trying to make here isn't to change your behavior, but simply add to it. You do all the things mentioned above because you know she wants you to, right? Then add to these things being strong for her, because this above all things will bring her the most satisfaction and happiness.
It doesn't take super human abilities. For many years I had trouble getting women to date me. I didn't understand what I was doing wrong. They liked me, even told me they were attracted to me. But for some reason I kept losing them to bad boys, pushy dickheads, and assholes. It never made any sense until I met the love of my life, and I wouldn't take no for an answer. I treated her well, but I was willing to do whatever I had to do for her to be mine, and it was very clear in everything I said and did. It worked like a charm. The reason you've had women in your bed is because they saw a strength in you. The reason they're still not in your bed is likely because you didn't take them for your own, but instead did the nice guy thing which was to not pressure them, and try to let the friendship blossom into a partnership. I agree that it shouldn't be this way, but it is. Women have no instinct to be with a man who lets them leave.
Yes, don't say 'never mind...'
Figure out how to explain to him what it is that you want. Women are really bad about this because you seem to think that if you have to explain it, or tell us what you want, then it isn't sincere or something. This is the biggest problem women face in the 21st century. Women have gone out of their way to explain what you want in addition to a man being strong, but have neglected to notice that in doing so you've basically told us that you want us to behave in a way that isn't strong. It is your own fault that all the good guys are treating you the way they are. You've asked us to, and we want to give you what you want. You can't assume that men instinctively understand what you want, especially with respect to us being 'strong' for you. If you see potential in a guy, don't give up on it without explaining to him what it is you truly want. If he is interested in you, he'll listen, think about it, ask some questions, and eventually figure it out.
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So you do agree that it's better to receive a sign that she's interested before starting the real chase. Otherwise you might be beating your head against the wall. And with just a little practice it is very easy to spot those signs.
The sad sad story of my long lost LOML (love of my life) is that I did try my best to get to her. Yet for every barricade I got through she would put up two more. She just was not interested. I doubt that even with my current experience I could have succeeded.
The analogy quite fits I think. The customer can go to any merchant and it's similar to the power that women hold in our society. They make a choice or at least an indication that they are interested. Merchants by definition cannot have any customer they want unless they force it. But they can attract customers using various strategies and in the end some get a lot of attention and some get none at all. Just like the dating game. And a very good strategy is to actually care for what a customer needs and give them exactly that. And women need what?
I agree that the situation is weird and Mr. White Knight should not ask such questions. It comparable to... when a girl on date asks how to put on her makeup
But anyway. In real life the response you will get from a guy might be very different from your imagined one. And that should be enough to decide is it worth to continue "educating". As an added bonus you shall also get extra points of coolness from the guys for such a dialogue.As for that part - although I've learned now how to get a woman, there is still left to master how to get the right woman.
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