Gay Olympians | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Gay Olympians

The Jester said:
How am I the only one who notices this? @UBERROGO you disappoint me.
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I suppose the notion that it is "fucking insane" that more people aren't gay, as if it matters, bothers me to the point that I just didn't see anything else.
 
UBERROGO said:
I suppose the notion that it is "fucking insane" that more people aren't gay, as if it matters, bothers me to the point that I just didn't see anything else.
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Oh, those words were used to reflect my emotional reaction toward the miniscule size of the open queer athlete population, the equivalent of "holy fuck". And not so much that more of them aren't gay, because I'm sure they are, but that so few of them are known to be gay and therefore in much likelihood assumed to be straight. Sorry I didn't answer that sooner, I missed it when answering the other question that went along with it.
 
Soulful said:
Oh, those words were used to reflect my emotional reaction toward the miniscule size of the open queer athlete population, the equivalent of "holy fuck". And not so much that more of them aren't gay, because I'm sure they are, but that so few of them are known to be gay and therefore in much likelihood assumed to be straight. Sorry I didn't answer that sooner, I missed it when answering the other question that went along with it.
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But how do you know more of them are gay? And why does that bother you?
 
Why the hell does it matter? All that matters in a sport event is skill and athleticism and those are the only criteria they're, in fact, evaluated on.


Say, if they were being screened and eliminated due to their sexual orientation, then we have a problem that requires attention and action, but evidently as the numbers show they are not. So what's the issue here and why is it an issue? Because I don't see one.



Maybe there aren't that many gay athletes. Maybe there are, but they don't care to tell the whole world about their sexual preferences. I don't think it's our place to tell anyone to divulge their private lives this way just so we could feel happy about the percentage. In the end, it doesn't take away from or add to their value as athletes, so again why should it matter?




Here's an opportunity where all are seen and treated as equals, yet we still ask for segregation. I am confounded.
 
UBERROGO said:
But how do you know more of them are gay? And why does that bother you?
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I don't know that they are, but I strongly suspect that they are given the statistical information provided about them and the gay population in general.
What saddens me is:
1) The fact that only 0.002% are openly gay suggests that many don't feel comfortable being so. And while I'm sure some of that is rooted in the understandable desire to be private about their personal life, much of it is also likely rooted in not feeling safe enough to be openly gay.
2) Some of these athletes do lead relatively public lives. For those who don't, being out publicly would require them to make a public display of their sexuality and that seems like quite am unnecessary fuss. But for those who are in the public eye, being gay without being known to be gay means that they are probably on some level pretending to be straight, whether it's by virtue of who they bring as a guest to award dinners, how they speak about their personal lives when asked, etc. People shouldn't have to keep themselves hidden in order to be otherwise safe or respected.
3) At a time when many queer youth endure serious social and mental health problems because of their queer identities (and that's in North America, I'm not sure what takes place elsewhere), having public role models can make a difference. We shouldn't have to have sexuality factor into whether or not someone is a role model. What does it matter who they choose to share their lives, homes, and/or bodies with in the confines of their personal lives? And yet it does matter. It matters quite a lot. Which brings me back to the other 2 points and the issue of queer visibility.

Also, people tend to be assumed to be straight until they are announced to be otherwise. Perhaps once this is no longer the case, it won't be as relevant whether someone is openly gay or not? I realize this thread is an example of what I'm about to say, but public gay figures don't have the privilege of not having their sexuality be made a matter of discussion if they wish to not come across as being straight.

And I don't mean to suggest that they should come out publicly, I understand why people may prefer to not speak publicly about their deepest affections and love/sex lives, but it's terrible to think that people do not possess the liberty to be themselves without undue reprecaussions.
 
I wonder what "openly gay" means? Does it require a press conference? I mean, there isn't a survey of who is gay, so where did the number 22 come from?
 
Odyne said:
Why the hell does it matter? All that matters in a sport event is skill and athleticism and those are the only criteria they're, in fact, evaluated on.


Say, if they were being screened and eliminated due to their sexual orientation, then we have a problem that requires attention and action, but evidently as the numbers show they are not. So what's the issue here and why is it an issue? Because I don't see one.



Maybe there aren't that many gay athletes. Maybe there are, but they don't care to tell the whole world about their sexual preferences. I don't think it's our place to tell anyone to divulge their private lives this way just so we could feel happy about the percentage. In the end, it doesn't take away from or add to their value as athletes, so again why should it matter?




Here's an opportunity where all are seen and treated as equals, yet we still ask for segregation. I am confounded.
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Perhaps I'm just not seeing what you all are saying and/or vice versa.

Those athletes are, by most persons, assumed to be straight, but no further discussion is made because it is quite normal to be heterosexual in this day and age, which leads to issues of queer invisibility. Because our world is one where the norm and expectation is to be straight, people who are not straight are made invisible unless they come out. The more people who come out, the greater the numbers of representation become, and the more we tackle issues of invisibility and begin to address the ways in which our world privileges heterosexual individuals and marginalizes queer persons -- the very real, very daily, boundless multiple ways in which it does this. So yes, it does matter imho. Perhaps it seems overly political to drag someone's sexual identity into something as sexually benign as sport, but the sitaution is already political whether or not we choose to acknowledge it, because of the world in which we live. That's the perspective that's informing my position on this.

I don't think these athletes should have to come out. I don't think that their sexual lives are our business as a matter of some sense of gossip or curiosity. But it's a shame that something like 99.998% of them are more than likely assumed to be straight by virtue of the fact that there's still very little space for queer identity in our world, and queer people are made invisible in numerous ways. So when one of them chooses to come out, it is a big deal. And likewise when they choose not to for reasons that have nothing to do with wanting privacy with regard to their personal lives. And I want to emphasize that I realize for many of them, it probably is a matter of privacy. But there's something hypocritical about calling it a matter of privacy for a gay person to not talk about their personal life, yet living in a world where the norm is to be sexual and heterosexual at that. It'd be one thing if we assumed everyone was asexual and therefore speaking of one's personal life was a major thing. But many straight people speak about their personal lives quite often without giving it second thought, and we don't bother to interrogate their comments as relating to their sexuality because we just take it for granted that they'll be straight. Does that make sense?

And I disagree that this is a chance for us to be equals. There is nothing equal about the Olympics. Perhaps 50 years ago or so, but not in this day and age, imo, for reasons of money and reasons of power. It's nice that they all march together, and it's great that they can compete together, but there is a reason why some countries have 2 athletes marching in the ceremonies while others have 407. There is nothing at all equal about that. And there is nothing equal about athletes who grew up in a world where they've had the freedom to enjoy the butterflies in their stomach or down further below, to dream about spending falling in love, getting married, raising children, adding on to their families, and becoming grandparents with love surrounding them, and those persons who steal furtive glances at their love interests, are forced to make out in shadows, endure things like corrective rape, and grow up with a sense of fear for persecution, violence, ostracization, abandonment, etc. Tell me what's equal about that, Odyne, or that this doesn't shape one's life in any significant or meaningful way...
 
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I'm tired and I have to go. I need to think about everything you've said because I feel like maybe I'm not listening very well. If that's been the case, I'm sorry. I'm happy to keep discussing it but I just need some time to think things over.
 
Soulful said:
And I disagree that this is a chance for us to be equals. There is nothing equal about the Olympics. Perhaps 50 years ago or so, but not in this day and age, imo, for reasons of money and reasons of power. It's nice that they all march together, and it's great that they can compete together, but there is a reason why some countries have 2 athletes marching in the ceremonies while others have 407. There is nothing at all equal about that. And there is nothing equal about athletes who grew up in a world where they've had the freedom to enjoy the butterflies in their stomach or down further below, to dream about spending falling in love, getting married, raising children, adding on to their families, and becoming grandparents with love surrounding them, and those persons who steal furtive glances at their love interests, are forced to make out in shadows, endure things like corrective rape, and grow up with a sense of fear for persecution, violence, ostracization, abandonment, etc. Tell me what's equal about that, Odyne, or that this doesn't shape one's life in any significant or meaningful way...
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The issues you're raising are outside of the Olympics scope. The equality you're talking about is much more global and have to do with the countries those athletes come from and there is so much more at play than simple athleticism; economics, political stability, and cultural preferences for one sport over the other. I can make the same arguments for college programs, Nobel prize winners, and the rates of unemployment. That can't be solved through one sporting event.

The equality I am talking about is this; in one category, competitors are being compared in terms of their athleticism only. Not race, not religion and certainly not sexuality. Gay athletes are not turned down from competing because they are gay. Maybe some of those athletes are happy that their sexuality isn't being scrutinized, because for once it doesn't come into play and it is not a deciding factor, where their performance is the only thing under the spotlight.


Number of athletes that represent a country does not matter either. A gay Ethiopian can compete against and an Australian muslim and all that is going to be considered and judged here is their ability to lift a 100 and something kg worth of weight. That's all. To some people, that's equality.




I understand your point and appreciate the cause you care about, but you're pursuing the wrong channels here.
 
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I understand that people take sexuality for granted all the time. I'm not assuming everyone else competing is straight. Still, it's hard to say what being "out" is. Say 5% of them are actually gay or some other non-hetero sexuality. The only way to find that number is to survey all the participants (if they are even willing to talk to a stranger), or look at who announced their sexuality in the press or personal website. Both of those options are incredibly time consuming... You don't know that the other athletes aren't plenty happy to talk about their mates with others, just not to the entire public. I don't doubt that ostracization exists, but don't assume that oddly low numbers are due to ostracization only. The context though is a bit odd - we're not talking about a political event. It's a context where people want to focus on their sport.

Huffington post got their numbers here: http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/2...bian-athletes-at-2012-london-summer-olympics/

All I can say is that it might not be as bad as you think.
 
Just for the record it is .2%, not .002%.
 
Thanks, [MENTION=407]Soulful[/MENTION], for starting this topic and for your thoughtful posts. I totally agree.

It really does matter. For the sake of social progress, it's extremely important that prominent individuals such as Olympic athletes are open about their LGBTQ identities. That doesn't mean they have to tattoo rainbow flags on their foreheads and go preaching door to door about gay rights. If I were an athlete (or an actor or a teacher or a lawyer, for that matter) I wouldn't want anyone making a big deal about my sexuality either. But just acknowledging, "Yeah, I'm gay/bi/whatever" makes a difference. It's really not about sex at all. It's about a marginalized community standing up and saying, "I will not be afraid or ashamed to express this aspect of who I am." And given the light in which gay men in particular tend to be portrayed in the media, gay male athletes especially help to dismantle stereotypes of gay men being weak. Coming out is an intensely personal and complicated issue, though, so I wouldn't blame any of those 10,978 Olympians who may be choosing to remain in the closet.

For straight people in a straight world, it's easier to take certain things for granted. When a guy casually mentions that he saw Batman last weekend with his girlfriend, no one's going to tell him he's shoving his sexuality in their face. For LGBTQ people, though, it might be a different story. And that sucks. So if, by being honest about one's non-heterosexuality, an Olympic athlete (or anyone else) can change one person's mind about what it means to be gay or can make one queer person feel a little better about him/herself, then I think it matters, even if it has nothing to do with how fast they can run or how high they can jump.
 
I would bet that many more of them are gay but don't advertise it because its not as accepted in their home country. Even in the US it is difficult for people to come out.
 
Side note: now that I have seen all the different Olympians who are posing nude, I guess I dont get to expect a minimalized sexuality from the games. It's all about fucking. Should have figured since the American media are involved.
 
I'm kinda confused, did they ask everyone if they were gay or not?
Because maybe there are athletes that would answer that they are if they were asked, but that dont feel the need to scream it on rooftops to the world.
 
What about all those male figure skaters?


Anyways, I can see why being gay is irrelevant in these circumstances, but I don't see why you guys are getting all confused and anal about the obvious point Soulful is trying to make and trampling all over her thread. It's not about the Olympics themselves, but because this is such a huge widely covered event, and all the supposedly "oppressed" groups are supposed to be triumphing and being visible in an arena where it's all about global togetherness and equality regardless of race/gender/etc, because of political correctness and "progress". It's happening for women, so it should make sense that it should happen for other oppressed groups too.


I agree with @Dragon in that in many countries, especially when people are in certain realms of professionalism, the athletic world being one of them, people tend to want to ignore or not talk about queerness even if it may not result in negative circumstances. There are cultural differences, and maybe people from other places aren't even aware that they are being oppressed and have a need to speak out. Who knows, maybe they have it better that way. They probably see it like I see being left handed. I know I'm different and there are people like me, but I'm not aware of us needing a support group for it or that I need to speak out.

PS. I can see why you guys thought the OP was retarded, but yeah srsly come on it's almost like you choose to miss the point after she takes the time to explain it.
 
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