French Burka Ban Goes into Effect

[TheLastMohican]

[Two veiled women] were arrested along with several other people protesting in front of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris against the new law.
Jourrnalists at the scene said the arrests came after police moved in to break up the protest which had not been authorised.
On Saturday police arrested 59 people, including 19 veiled women, who turned up for a banned protest in Paris against the draconian new law, the first of its kind to be enforced in Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...burka-ban-police-arrest-two-veiled-women.html

Additional details from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42528909/
____________________________________

Defenders of these bans like to emphasize the public safety aspect — that it's necessary for people to have their faces exposed, lest they feel enabled to act inappropriately or even criminally while disguised. While that raises an argument worth having in terms of policy, it does not apply well to this situation. The French ban has made exceptions for motorcycle helmets, carnival masks and the like, and government spokespersons have long made it abundantly clear that this ban is designed to target the burka. As the Interior Minister Claude Gueant said, this ban upholds French principles of secularism and gender equality. (I suspect it also has something to do with the Islamophobia flourishing across Europe.) Of course, in the name of protecting women from coercion, the ban is in fact coercing women, treating the population of burka-wearers as people incapable of informed personal choice. Some women are suppressed by Islamic demands, true, but the solution is not to create your own equal and opposite oppression as a countermeasure.

 

[the]

On one hand I feel like if that is what the French want then that is what they should do. On the other I dont like that women can't wear religious head coverings considering Orthodox head coverings look similar to the burka.

 

[gps]

I saw some footage of the first day of the ban.
There were some guys wearing masks in the vicinity and they were not arrested.
If a masked face were at issue vis-a-vis the spirit of the law then ANY and EVERY masked face should be regarded with equal threat.

I'd like to know what's hiding under yarmulkes, ball caps, and tacky hair pieces.
If the wearers can't disprove a negative then they should be considered as guilty until proven innocent as women covering their faces with anything other than the traditional layers of bondo, primer, base coat, and blush.

Frankly I'm more than a little peeved at the internecine squabbles among Abrahamists Thou shalt not killing one another as if they weren't hypocrites above and beyond members dangling off one branch or another of the ramifying bush emerging from same Abrahamic monoist twisted root.

If those imposing the prohibition were to remove their pious masks it might not have been a clear case of double standards and a violation of the fair and equal application of the law.

 

[acd]

I'll be honest-I hate that Islam institutionally treats women as subhuman.
Telling women their mere appearance is sinful as it invokes impure thoughts from men--not an indicator of an ideology that treats half it's population with respect as equals..so I'm with the French in that regard..
I'd like to see it disappear: But I'd prefer to see if done away with by women CHOOSING to throw the burkas and the whole ideology away.. instead of being forced to.

The whole ordeal is ironic and unfortunately may prove counter-productive.
I think it would be best if women were better educated, and made to question the practices of their religion rather than to have to force them to conform to another ideology.

 

[Puck]

I suppose what I dislike about it, is that women are subject to abuse in this situation, no matter what they do. If they wear the veil, they're breaking the law, and if they don't, they are subject to the whim of the patriarch in their household. Women in progressive households won't be too affected by this ruling, but some women will no doubt never see the light of day after this.

 

[acd]

they are subject to the whim of the patriarch in their household. Women in progressive households won't be too affected by this ruling, but some women will no doubt never see the light of day after this. some women will no doubt never see the light of day after this.

I didn't even think of that.
That's a good point.
Some will end up even more oppressed.

 

[Raccoon Love]

Many people have been using the concept of relativism to defend the cultural practice which clearly oppresses women. There's a point where we draw the line between respect and what's harmful, and having women oppressed has been demonstrated to be harmful. France has every right to enforce this ban, it just bothers when people critique it. If we should respect this so "cultural norm" then we should also respect Rastafarian's smoking weed anywhere they want, and the sacrificing of children by certain religions.

Now, I also have the same concerns that ACD and Puck expressed. I feel women should be educated on the manner and not have to go through torture in the process of enforcing the law. My concern is that we can educate this women, but what will it take to change. Till this day there are still people who disapprove of scientific proven facts, due to holy scripture. I know the perfect example of such is my parents. People who have been indoctrined to the point where they will completely close off any sort of outside education. In that case, the law might be the only solution. Again though, I'm uncertain on how this should be handled.

 

[acd]

I wish I had the answer @Raccoon Love
It seems to me there is a whole lifetime of shame and fear that has to be instilled into people who will allow themselves to be treated such a way.
To start, it would be necessary to work to reverse all of that.

 

[aeon]

I'll be honest-I hate that Islam institutionally treats women as subhuman.

Yet, it was the first system to grant women the right to divorce

 

[aeon]

Some Muslim headscarves:

 

[Lurker]

[Two veiled women] were arrested along with several other people protesting in front of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris against the new law.
Jourrnalists at the scene said the arrests came after police moved in to break up the protest which had not been authorised.
On Saturday police arrested 59 people, including 19 veiled women, who turned up for a banned protest in Paris against the draconian new law, the first of its kind to be enforced in Europe.

But were they arrested for holding an unauthorised protest, or for wearing a burka, sounds like the former to me. Which raises the question of if and how it will be enforced.

 

[Galileo]

Personally, as an atheist who has issues with religion being paraded around in public, I think there are institutions where religious symbolism shouldn't be allowed, ie, public schools, but that goes for all religions in my opinion.

In our public schools teachers have to cater for all kinds of religious needs including those of children who are not allowed to use vertual whiteboards and those who are not allowed to learn about war in any way and those who are not allowed to eat all kinds off foods and have to have their lunch brought into school by a parent.
As far as I'm concerned teachers shouldn't have to do this, and children should have to learn the same lessons, especially if they are attending a public school, and the best way of dealing with these sorts of things is to say that no religious needs will be catered for.

I also think that people should have their faces visible in places like airpors, train stations, shopping centres etc. However I think that goes just as much for hoodies and caps and all manner of other stuff people can use to cover their faces.

 

[acd]

Yet, it was the first system to grant women the right to divorce — and keep 50% of the property.



I’ve never heard it explained that way from Muslims I have known and been friends with.

Something to keep in mind — many women, Muslim and otherwise, choose to wear the Hijab, Niqab, Burka, Al-Amira, Shayla, Khimar, and Chador, in the absence of any requirement to do so. Also, many Muslim women wear none of the above — inasmuch as the kind of headscarf (or lack thereof) often has more to do with local culture than it does ideology.


Namaste,
Ian

It may have been that way once upon a time.
So what changed in Muslim theocracies, at least?

Many people also choose to join cults.

And, is it really a choice when you are raised or indoctrinated to follow a certain ideology that is part of a local culture?


Ask yourself what the actual necessity of women (and not men) covering themselves like that is.

Whether it's a choice or not, I maintain that some people will always choose to do illogical and self-depreciating things in the name of religion.
I am opposed to religion, but I am not opposed to an individual's choice to practice their belief so long as it doesn't interfere with my life or someone else s'.
Like I said earlier, I do not advocate the ban. Instead, I'd rather women decide for themselves to do away with it.

 

[the]

I’ve never heard it explained that way from Muslims I have known and been friends with.

Me either.

I usually get sensible explanations when I get it from a Muslim , and explanations about how horrible it is when it is from any other (especially fundamentalist christian and atheist).

And, is it really a choice when you are raised to follow a certain ideology?

Yes. Doing what you are raised to do isn't the same as being forced.

 

[Arsal]

And, is it really a choice when you are raised or indoctrinated to follow a certain ideology?

They're happy.

 

[Arsal]

I was not being sarcastic. To elaborate, it does not bother me that certain people are raised to hold certain ideologies as long as they do not restrict my freedom, or the freedom of anyone else in any way. For that matter, I think a burka ban is certainly that; a restriction on freedom and thus, I do not condone of it.

If these women feel comfort in knowing that they are covering their bodies for Allah, then good for them. Let them have that comfort. As long as they are happy -- which is the pinnacle of achievement, in my opinion -- then it doesn't matter.

 

[Trifoilum]

They're happy.

Nailed it right on the spot.

On the other hand,
It sounds terrifying for people being taught under the ideology of freedom and tolerance to fathom even the slightest possibility of suppression,
but,
It sounds terrifying for people being taught under the ideology of faith and safety to fathom even the slightest possibility of rebellion.

If you're thinking wearing burqa is wrong, then it is wrong on so many levels and dimensions. Because really, doesn't the decision involves so much (mostly unspoken) consideration?

I think the burqa ban is, in one dimension, an attempt of female empowerment, but in other dimension, an attempt of religious offense, and on another, an attempt of female discrimination. (Ladies, choose to wear burqas, face punishment!)

I would say ideally the better choice is to guarantee the safety of women who indeed -want- to shed their burqas.

 

[sweetea]

Good grief sometimes I get so sick of our "look-ism" society that I think none of us should be able to leave the house without a burka.

Perfect for the introvert. I don't wanna look at you. And I don't want you to look at me. Lol!

 

[The Jester]

I think a burka ban is certainly that; a restriction on freedom and thus, I do not condone of it.

Every law is a restricrion on freedom.

I know, this argument will be countered with:
'But wearing a burka does not harm others, like act X and act Y does.'

They [the French government] believe that it is harmful for the women themselves, and some believe it's potentially harmful to others.
(I've read that a murderer once escaped overseas from the UK using a burka, but in my mind it's more a one-case thing. I don't think you can generalise it.)

So, is the burka a form of discrimination?

I just wish we could all judge a person by their ideas and personality, and not by the fact they have tits or a dick.
I try to do that, mainly because I like talking to likeminded people.
And because it doesn't matter really if you are muscled, skinny, obese, female, male, ... if you can hold up a good conversation.
I think that's why intelligence is such a turn-on for me. It makes people so much more beautiful.

I wish we would not divide people in categories. I wish we could stop labelling everyone.
I even would love to see a world without religion, where values are solely based on common sense.
Now, I believe that religion is just an institution created by humans, to gain control over others.
Not per se in a negative sense, because I think that the intention was good.

But I know this all is not possible.

 

[Arsal]

Every law is a restricrion on freedom.

I know, this argument will be countered with:
'But wearing a burka does not harm others, like act X and act Y does.'

There's constructive, and there's destructive.

Laws are enforced to counter destructive measures.

As far as I'm concerned, wearing a burqa is not destructive, and does not affect anyone -- adversely or otherwise -- except for the individual herself, and I'll put that up to personal choice.

If it's the potential for harm to others that bothers the French government, then they might as well also ban goth, chav, gangsta fashion, because you know... chavs and gangstas might mug you, and goths might suck your blood in the quiet underground subway or something.

Also make it so that no one can wear cloaks, because you know, evil villains wear cloaks. And murderers.

The point being that you cannot judge someone solely on the fact that they wear burqa, it's rude, disrespectful and unfair. To take away the right to wear it is an extension of this line of thought.

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The only reasoning with which I would consider this valid, is the difficulty it might prove in identification, but I'm sure there are more efficient ways of going about that...