Femininity & Masculinity | INFJ Forum

Femininity & Masculinity

Peppermint

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How do you view femininity and masculinity?
What specific traits, behaviors, mindsets do you associate with either?
How important are qualities of femininity and masculinity in a prospective partner?

How in general, do you feel about living in a gendered world? Do you find it a natural order of things or a cultural imposition on people?
 
I'm going to keep these brief for now, I'll probably give an in-depth response later...

"Femininity"/ "Masculinity"? Mostly a cultural creation...

Traits, behaviors, mindsets? The only traits I feel are worth mentioning would be those that are physical/biological... of both the body and mind.

Prospective Partners Fem v Mas? If she doesn't have a penis *edit* - no beard either - I'm cool with a "tomboy"... relatively unimportant I suppose.

"Gendered World"... Natural or cultural imposition... can it be both? That's what I learned in Neuro Psych. and I'm sticking to it.
 
How do you view femininity and masculinity?
What specific traits, behaviors, mindsets do you associate with either?
How important are qualities of femininity and masculinity in a prospective partner?

How in general, do you feel about living in a gendered world? Do you find it a natural order of things or a cultural imposition on people?

After all these years I think it's like you say: A cultural imposition on people.

In an ideal world our actions should define us. Not what we look like. Not what we say. Not what's on our resume'.

I was watching Ken Wilbur the other day and he said the Feminine is all about embracing. The Masculine was about pushing. If one looks at the Yin Yang symbol - the Female embraces the Male pushing.

I think any individual should be able to push when they need to and embrace when it's appropriate.

We all embody both.

The sooner we become aware of it - the sooner we can be who need to be to make things better in any given situation. No matter the outside covering...the outer form we inhabit.

I do not like living in a gendered world.


I wish people would quit judging us based upon what we look like and instead - look at actions.
 
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I should elaborate some more. I'm interested in how you convince of gender qualities (feminine and masculine) in people's personalities. People have associated certain personality traits and archetypes with sexes since forever, this is what I mean with "gendered world".
 
you have raised some very worthwhile questions here. ones which require a great deal of consideration and time. and ones which cannot be answered adequately in a brief post. :)
gender ideologies do exist. they influence our perceptions and experiences of what it means to be male or female. and they change over time. but, is masculinity/femininity simply a social construct? i am not sure. i think it’s a matter of nature AND nurture.
in many ways i identify with traditional notions of femininity. for me, it feels innate and i have felt that way for as long as i can remember.
in partner: i am extremely attracted to ‘masculinity’ in men, - male physique, physical strength. for me there is nothing finer or more beautiful than the male body. however, don’t need emotional strength (or void). emotional depth and sensitivity/vulnerability in men can be very nice and very masculine.
 
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Masculinity: characterized by initiating, protecting, strength
Femininity: characterized by responding, nurturing, beauty
In prospective partner: the above, with some healthy mix of both genders

A gendered world is natural, provided that the views of each gender are true to nature - distorted but not negated by cultural ideals.
 
How do you view femininity and masculinity?
What specific traits, behaviors, mindsets do you associate with either?
How important are qualities of femininity and masculinity in a prospective partner?

How in general, do you feel about living in a gendered world? Do you find it a natural order of things or a cultural imposition on people?

I don't think masculinity and femininity are easy to define, except in comparing generalised male and female characteristics. That is to say, masculinity and femininity are defined by their relative difference.

Gender specific traits, behaviours, mindsets etc. Seem to have two aspects:
1. The underlying difference between males and females (physical, mental, emotional, behavioural, etc.).
2. The socially constructed behaviours, dress, traits, etc. which are associated with those things which differentiate males and females in society.

In respect of the first aspect - there can be infinite debate about the fundamental difference between men and women: the physical is pretty much beyond debate; levels of agression, emotional stability, etc. are more fluid.
In respect of the second aspect: social norms, which allow one to express one's gender absolutely, without necessitating direct comparison with this, or that member of the opposite sex seem to be beneficial in several respects: 1. It facilitates one's internal identification with one's own gender/sex and other members of the same sex. 2. The adoption of gender specific traits (eg. wearing trousers, having short hair, developing physical coordination, etc. ) signals an easy ability to function within structured society. (I won't go on, as I have to get going). ...
 
Depends on hormone levels, traits associated with higher levels of testosterone are generally considered more "masculine". Traits associated with higher levels of estrogen are generally considered more "feminine". With the prevalence of birth control pills and their effect on hormones I imagine those lines start to get more blurred.

On a more personal level, I have never met a woman who doesn't prefer being submissive in a sexual arena, which is interesting to me, but may mean nothing in the grander scheme of things.
 
I should elaborate some more. I'm interested in how you convince of gender qualities (feminine and masculine) in people's personalities. People have associated certain personality traits and archetypes with sexes since forever, this is what I mean with "gendered world".

Hmm....I started to say I think a masculine trait would be the ability to Kill and the feminine would be to Not Kill.

But I'm not sure when I think about it because a mother would kill in a heart beat to protect her child.

Nevertheless...when it came time to killing animals etc when I was growing up my mother never became involved in any of it. My father did it. Sick and injured animals. Animals for meat to eat. He did it all....not us women. My first husband was a duck hunter. In his whole family none of the women did any killing. Only the men.
When a stray dog came to our place and began killing our cats - my second husband was the one who took the .38 and shot him in the head. No one expected to me to.

Is this an example of what you're talking about?
 
there are feminine and masculine qualities in both mannerisms and physicality that i notice. it's not so much what sex the person actually is to me, but how masculine or feminine they look and behave.
i am very attracted to men who are masculine in their looks and women who are more masculine in their behavior and mannerisms
femininity is annoying to me when it's overt. ick
it's like a big lie they're telling - look how helpless and fragile i am. lol
that's my own prejudice of course, but that's just how i view the girlie girls.

as a bisexual woman i have no problem in a gendered world. technically, as far as procreation, it is the natural order of things, but that doesn't mean that it's the only order of things. (did that make sense to anyone else but me?)

i've never really had a problem with my sexuality though so i'm probably not the best judge of that.
those who have been persecuted or ostracized for their gender orientation would probably tell a much different story.
 
Let me preface by saying we are discussing the top of bell shaped curves. There will always be women and men who deviate from the norm because that's just how things work -- it's normal to have the deviation.

Masculine: Hierarchical, protective, providing, play with the kids, activity oriented, strength of the moment

Feminine: Social networks, nurturing, teach the kids, communicative, long term strength

I have two illustrations, one of kids, one of adults.

As a third grade teacher, I noticed:

boys: easy for every boy to be in the group, but the group was heirarchal. fights often broke out, but were forgotten the next day.

girls: formed closed intimate groups that were largely egalitarian or with one leader and equal followers, but would not allow any other girl into the group. fights only used words, but the harm was deep and lasting.

As a married woman I noticed:

My husband and his friends always got together around activities: watching the ballgame, playing poker, going fishing, working out...

My friends and I would simply make a big salad and talk for hours not really doing anything

==================

I LOVE the difference. I think the very fact that men are different from me makes them far more interesting. It makes relationships with MUCH harder than my girlfriendships, but much more rewarding. After about 5 years of marriage I think I figured out that I didn't need to try so hard -- he was happy if he got lots of sex and good food, and I was happier if I stopped trying to make him into a chat buddy and talked mostly with my girlfriends. Most of the "relationship" stuff that I fretted about was never an issue for him and it usually confused him. So I learned from my third grade boys and just let silly fights fade from memory.

I don't want to marry a girl. So I don't want to marry a girly man. Nuff said. :D
 
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I do believe there are underlying dispositions that define and distinguish one gender from the other. I don't think it has to do with culture but I think it has to do with relationship dynamics and the continuity of the species. The terms "feminine" and "masculine" carry anthropological weight, and it's not about a set of behaviors, but rather the primal instincts that drives those behaviors.

Why the men and the woman of today behave differently than the men and women of a hundred years ago? Because it's an adaptation mechanism to a different environment in order to protect and assure the well being of their progeny. I believe it's as simple and rudimentary as that.





In terms of partners, I've always been attracted to "manly" men. I find physical attributes to be sexually arousing, and personality dispositions to be sentimentally attaching. I can spin it however I want with this evolved frontal lobe of mine and make it sound sophisticated: "A man of ambition, intelligence, strength of character, kind and sensitive" but most of what I like comes down to: "Apart from healthy genes, is my partner capable of providing, protecting and nurturing?", and that can manifest itself in so many ways.


I think the basis behind any attraction is: "Are we going to ensure one another's survival or not?" Let that survival be psychological, physical, intellectual, social, etc. whatever you need to keep you (and your potential offspring) going.
 
I should elaborate some more. I'm interested in how you convince of gender qualities (feminine and masculine) in people's personalities. People have associated certain personality traits and archetypes with sexes since forever, this is what I mean with "gendered world".


The personality archetypes are a result of the physical differences between a male and a female. We can argue that a woman can hunt and protect herself just like a man can, but when a woman becomes pregnant that is no longer as possible or as easier, and so in the relationship the dynamics shift; the man becomes the one more physically able and assumes the role of protecting and providing. Over the billion years of evolution, those physical differences morphed into psychological dispositions, and they will continue to be so.


I don't think we will ever live in a truly gender neutral world, unless men become able of bearing children.
 
I was kinda hoping people would provide detailed descriptions of how they envision either f/m in this thread, and not go down the evo.psych explication route. It's less about explanation or justification and more so a bit like a literary assignment.

Oh well.
 
I see feminine as holding, enduring, contemplative. My feminine nature is that which is patient, observant, nonjudgmental. It loves the undifferentiated wholeness of experience.

I see masculine as moving, thinking, planning, breathing. My masculine nature puts me into situations and pulls me out of them. It loves the rush of living.
 
you have raised some very worthwhile questions here. ones which require a great deal of consideration and time. and ones which cannot be answered adequately in a brief post. :)
gender ideologies do exist. they influence our perceptions and experiences of what it means to be male or female. and they change over time. but, is masculinity/femininity simply a social construct? i am not sure. i think it’s a matter of nature AND nurture.
in many ways i identify with traditional notions of femininity. for me, it feels innate and i have felt that way for as long as i can remember.

in partner: i am extremely attracted to ‘masculinity’ in men, - male physique, physical strength. for me there is nothing finer or more beautiful than the male body. however, don’t need emotional strength (or void). emotional depth and sensitivity/vulnerability in men can be very nice and very masculine.


Being a woman has been so redefined today that the word "femininity" however relevant is somewhat limiting. Young women experience gender difference quite differently from women of the past. I do think there's still a nature AND nurture thing, but nurture is currently dominating. Women view their gender as a construct of their personal, social, and emotional identity. It's not predefined anymore what being a woman is supposed to be. Women are taught to see their gender difference as a personal strength not as a weakness. This means being a woman is not viewed the fragile object requiring protection and support because of her "softness". She is no longer defined entirely by her sexual difference. Rather, her sexual difference is only one part of who she is. She is seen today as more than the sum of her sex organs. So, being feminine is not her singular birthright and occupation anymore. Being female is not a career, and subordinate to her complete personhood. Therefore, her main goal in life today is not to reflect "femininity."

However, I think women are often asked to diminish feminine qualities because they are seen as a weakness and a reflection of the old guard. Now, power and strength is only defined in stereotypically masculine terms: dominance, competition, assertiveness, control, and authority. "Feminine" traits such as "demure now equal = shy, naive, codependent, submissive (as in no autonomy), accommodation, or supportive = doormat, sensitivity = weak, fragile.". Both men and women are still "permitted" to show protectiveness and nurturing but only to family or close friends. They are not expected to show these qualities in large society unless they are in public positions. Women must often display stereotypical masculine traits to be seen as good at what they do. They are invisible or considered unaccomplished if they don't.

Other traditional masculine traits such as firmness, hardness, unyielding, highly competitive, significant mental and physical strength, logical and practical intelligence, focused, direct, concise, high confidence, high pain tolerance, less emotionally expressive, authoritative, are associated with high competence and proficiency and we expect everyone regardless of gender to reflect these traits to be considered the best or most intelligent or accomplished. When they don't, they are seen as weaker members whose contribution is not equal to the rest of the fighter and survivor population. More feminine qualities such as flexibility, accommodation, listening, and showing concern or affection are seen as signs of simplicity, and deficiency in other areas such as intelligence. Women who choose to serve in a nurturing or humble roles are seen as weaker, while those who lead and manage, are seen as women of real power and control. Strength can't be quiet anymore. It must be visible to the world and be shown in egocentric displays to be seen as real strength.

So, sadly, the feminine and masculine have been horribly disfigured and misunderstood, that we now buy into the supposed "inherent" differences between people, that they still indirectly supports the idea that one is deficient, and the other highly proficient. One of the examples of why strict or rigid dichotomies are problematic and dangerous.

Masculinity: characterized by initiating, protecting, strength
Femininity: characterized by responding, nurturing, beauty
In prospective partner: the above, with some healthy mix of both genders

A gendered world is natural, provided that the views of each gender are true to nature - distorted but not negated by cultural ideals.

Agree, in some cultures having more "feminine" qualities is ideal. In others, it's purely a sign weakness and inadequacy.

In terms of partners, I've always been attracted to "manly" men. I find physical attributes to be sexually arousing, and personality dispositions to be sentimentally attaching. I can spin it however I want with this evolved frontal lobe of mine and make it sound sophisticated: "A man of ambition, intelligence, strength of character, kind and sensitive" but most of what I like comes down to: "Apart from healthy genes, is my partner capable of providing, protecting and nurturing?", and that can manifest itself in so many ways.


I think the basis behind any attraction is: "Are we going to ensure one another's survival or not?" Let that survival be psychological, physical, intellectual, social, etc. whatever you need to keep you (and your potential offspring) going.
 
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Masculinity is weakness in strength.

feminitiy is strength in weakness.
 
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I recently had a conversation with a French woman who claimed that French women tend to be more feminine than American women. I tend to agree. Where I live there are many androgynous assertive independent Artemis females who are not traditionally feminine. Some are very masculine and aggressive in fact. For me, they are great for hanging out, but personally I am more compatible with feminine females, especially as a mate. This is one of many reasons my ex is now my ex. She really wasn't comfortable with her feminine side. I partially blame feminism. There are many pros and cons to feminism of course (thread derail alert). I love sweet, soft, warm, gentle, tender, sensitive, emotional, vulnerable, affectionate, supportive feminine energy. Male and female are archetypes which exist independent of cultural conditioning. It is one thing to become balanced. You need to honor your anima or animus. And everyone is different. But I do observe an unhealthy imbalance as well. Some females are not in touch with their feminity or masculinity enough, same for males. I think this trend partially accounts for relationship dysfunction. When a man is prevented from being a real man, and a woman is prevented from being a real woman, problems can ensue. Despite what Americans believe, men and women tend to be different. This extends to every species ever to exist. There are those that believe that there is currently a campaign to pressure people to become more unisex and to eliminate gender. I think that could have potentially disastrous results. Notice that this thread would not exist in other times and places. Being a typical man or woman was very natural. Not everyone fits the archetype or stereotype of course. This is why I love Greek God Archetypes. You can resemble Athena or Demeter, Ares or Dionysus. Everyone is unique. But masculinity and femininity exist apart from culture in my view. I aspire to be a balanced masculine man who is in touch with his feminine side (and other stuff like shadow). Easier said than done.