[NSFW] Exercise : A World Without Religion

[Trifoilum]

.....We have a ton of discussion regarding this matter and so I say, eeeh, fuck it.
Let's have fun, play God and abolish religion! And because I'm playing God I'm ignoring the irony of the statement! Anyway!

Imagine two worlds without religion*:

One does not know any religion since the beginning of time.
and the other just finally broke free from the clutches of religion.

They exist in the same continuum of time and space and humanity on the two world begin to appear at roughly the same time.
Astronomically and geographically they are almost similar to Earth, with significant differences in shape but still comparable to each other.
Physically and physiologically they started up similar within each other.

How would they end up? How would the history unfold? What would cause the second world to abolish religion altogether?
What would be different between these two worlds? between them and our world?

Have fun.

*)Oh god oh god I'm so tempted to use A World Without Worships, but that doesn't make sense aaaaa.

 

[Billy]

[video=youtube;6p5jnqEyUs4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5jnqEyUs4[/video]

 

[Cornerstone]

If there is an emphasis on going within yourself rather than looking to outside (human) authority for guidance then it would be a good thing.

If not, people would do the same things under a different banner. There are other ways to free oneself from fear as well than simply believing in an afterlife of some description.

If people were allowed to be themselves and to trust their own feelings about right and wrong I think we would have a better world for the most part.
Partially it would be worse but that is the price of free will.

Removing the one BIG source of making people feel small, the notion of a God who needs anything at all from human beings and has both the power and right to take it if you don't give it to him, could only be a good thing. If religion had never existed then the materialist grandeur displayed by many organised religions would not be present and I suppose the only sign of materialist grandeur would be the spoils of the capitalist system we have in place today. Perhaps, with there being no love of mammon ever having been visible in the religions that didn't exist, it would perhaps be one of many options for a fulfilling life because it has never been given that divine approval that perhaps people still unconsciously observe today.

Many, many more things probably.

If it had never existed, I think people would find a way. A better way or maybe the same way. Maybe it is necessary to be very ignorant - I think it could be part of it.
The subjective, personal journey is the way though. There is no right way or wrong way only YOUR way and that is the thing we give so little value to when it is the most important thing.

 

[sprinkles]

The first one is overdue to have some and the second will be right back to it soon enough.
But really, what are we calling religion? I can't fathom a world that would get this far without animists or pagans, or the Greek mythos, or the Zoroastrians, or ancient Hindu, or even Zen for that matter.

 

[Radiantshadow]

To decide how a world would function without something, we need to clarify what effects that something has had on one with it. In short: what has religion inspired? Culture, history, historical movements, philosophies, and psychology come to my mind. Sifting through all of this may take some time, since separating correlation and causation tends to be difficult. Then, determine whether these effects can be produced by something else and, if so, any examples of such that either have already occurred or are occurring. Have we any anthropologists, theologians, philosophers, or psychologists to call upon?

 

[sprinkles]

To decide how a world would function without something, we need to clarify what effects that something has had on one with it. In short: what has religion inspired? Culture, history, historical movements, philosophies, and psychology come to my mind. Sifting through all of this may take some time, since separating correlation and causation tends to be difficult. Then, determine whether these effects can be produced by something else and, if so, any examples of such that either have already occurred or are occurring. Have we any anthropologists, theologians, philosophers, or psychologists to call upon?

Divergent thinking is one of the things.

But I ask again, what is a religion? Some might say animism is religious but for the tribal peoples that have been around since ancient times, it's not religion - it's "just how things are". Some old languages do not even have a word that can express 'religion' as a specific set of beliefs because for them it was so mundane and ingrained into daily life, such a given that the concept never obtained a word.

What can we say when isolated pockets of ancient people independently develop spiritual beliefs? Would this ever have been avoidable at all? What happened when they encountered strange others who evolved slightly differently so where their version of "how things are" is totally different from the other people's version of "how things are"?

 

[Radiantshadow]

Divergent thinking is one of the things.

But I ask again, what is a religion? Some might say animism is religious but for the tribal peoples that have been around since ancient times, it's not religion - it's "just how things are". Some old languages do not even have a word that can express 'religion' as a specific set of beliefs because for them it was so mundane and ingrained into daily life, such a given that the concept never obtained a word.

What can we say when isolated pockets of ancient people independently develop spiritual beliefs? Would this ever have been avoidable at all? What happened when they encountered strange others who evolved slightly differently so where their version of "how things are" is totally different from the other people's version of "how things are"?

Oops, my bad, I didn't read the thread. A religion, loosely, is a collection of beliefs relating mankind to some greater force or forces, generally forming a worldview and rules for behavior.

As for vocabulary: language describes, it does not create. What we call a thing reflects our perception, not necessarily reality; if I called cats dogs and dogs cats, it would only demonstrate my confused mental organizations and would not change what either cats or dogs are in reality. Put in more poetic form from Shakespeare, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Independent agents forming similar constructs is a concept known as synchronicity, popularized by psychologist Carl Jung. I think the formation of explanatory beliefs for natural phenomenon is exactly that: natural. Humans are curious creatures that like definite beginnings and endings, usually to form judgements needful for subsequent navigation of life. The accuracy and validity of these assumptions about reality is always up for debate, however; the theories of today may easily be the myths of tomorrow as new insights are made. But I digress.

Group Belief A encountering Group Belief B tends to result in some form of dominance display to validate and comfort one group or the other. Cognitive biases ensue, humanity is lost, and metaphorical hearts of darkness are revealed: Stereotypes. Discrimination. Subjugation. Slavery. Imperialism. And so on. Humans like certainty - threats to it are not usually tolerated very well. The book/film Lord of the Flies demonstrates all of this pretty well, as does the novella Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. Sociology is an entire field of inquiry devoted to studying group dynamics, sometimes aided by the resource flow of economics.

As an aside, how we resolve conflicts and misunderstandings within and between groups is becoming increasingly important in an intricately interconnected world. As a race, I believe we are still pretty tribal and have many strides to make in living together without blowing ourselves to bits.

Hope this was helpful, or at least stimulating. It's late, so I may not have been terribly clear or on-topic. Nudge me if so.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4108]Radiant Shadow[/MENTION]

Language describes but things must first be considered in the first place in order to be given a word. Some words are for more lofty and stilted purposes than others - 'religion' for example is often a more heavy and talked about word than 'banana'.

I'm illustrating the opposite effect - a way of life that is so non-contrary or confrontational, so benign to the people that have it, that it is not even elevated to the status of having a word, it ranks below bananas.

 

[Radiantshadow]

@Radiant Shadow

Language describes but things must first be considered in the first place in order to be given a word. Some words are for more lofty and stilted purposes than others - 'religion' for example is often a more heavy and talked about word than 'banana'.

I'm illustrating the opposite effect - a way of life that is so non-contrary or confrontational, so benign to the people that have it, that it is not even elevated to the status of having a word, it ranks below bananas.

Would that peaceful lifestyles were more widespread.

What are you using the animism/"primitive" analogy to say about the presence or absence of religion, though?

That changes in thought should not constitute a large part of how one orients themselves to the world?

That reality is reality regardless of how it is perceived?

Or that, in the animist idea that there's no barrier between physical and spiritual reality, the vacancy of religion would change nothing?

Or that what is, is so incredibly obvious that it doesn't even warrant mention?

Or are we deciding what is and is not religion itself? The OP's intent was rather clear, I thought: a world without spiritual institutions, likely meaning the large ones in popular human civilization like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism.

Or something else entirely?

I'm afraid I need you to tell me exactly what you mean. Because, quite frankly, a world without the belief in the natural worlds' possession of souls would not change much; a great many people get along just fine believing humans alone have a mind/soul.

 

[sprinkles]

Would that peaceful lifestyles were more widespread.

What are you using the animism analogy to say about the presence or absence of religion, though? That changes in thought should not constitute a large part of how one orients themselves to the world? That reality is reality regardless of how it is perceived? Or that, in the animist idea that there's no barrier between physical and spiritual reality, the vacancy of religion would change nothing? Or that what is, is so incredibly obvious that it doesn't even warrant mention? Or are we nit-picking what is and is not religion itself? {The OP's connotative intent was rather clear, I thought: a world without spiritual institutions. Maybe I am completely missing the point?} Or something else entirely? What, exactly, are you trying to say? Because, quite frankly, a world without the belief in the natural worlds' possession of souls would not change much; a great many people get along just fine believing humans alone have a mind/soul.

Well, I'm saying one of two things, depending:

1. If animism is counted as religious, then I'd consider it inseparable. In that case I can't imagine arriving at the place we are now without that ever happening. It would be like positing a world where nothing ever acts like itself - it can't really be made sense of.

2. If animism is not counted as religious, then what are we counting as religious? It's as you say, we need to clarify effects, but we also need to clarify the cause in this case as well.

 

[Paladin-X]

Without God, there is no one to keep Cthulhu at bay. Except for those fine folks at Miskatonic University, but they're fictional.

 

[Trifoilum]

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]

That's an interesting query.
*puts on DM hat*
I think it'd be good to think about it in your own way.
*puts off DM hat*

Now personally speaking, I considered animism and dynamism as religions. They have all the elements; deification (even if it's objects of nature), rituals, followers / worshippers...
I would say there is a difference in strength between deification and plain appreciation, however.

However, does the lack of deities = lack of spiritualism?

But that's my own personal opinion; others might see different things.

 

[Radiantshadow]

Well, I'm saying one of two things, depending:

1. If animism is counted as religious, then I'd consider it inseparable. In that case I can't imagine arriving at the place we are now without that ever happening. It would be like positing a world where nothing ever acts like itself - it can't really be made sense of.

2. If animism is not counted as religious, then what are we counting as religious? It's as you say, we need to clarify effects, but we also need to clarify the cause in this case as well.

In that case:

I would personally consider animism a foundational belief set, the precursor to religion itself. Anthropomorphized natural phenomenon strike me as the first attempt at cause-effect relationships later found amply in more modern religions. It relates humans to a greater stage, the natural world, with a role to play within, living in harmony and with equality. What seems lacking, from a brief Wikipedia/Standford encyclopedia of philosophy search, is an arcing towards some pending reward that is part of modern religion {enlightenment, happiness, eternal life, reincarnation, whatever}.

My impression of religion is simply a manifestation of psychology, with great preponderance for evading permanent death, or, at least, gratifying our mortality with pleasant or comforting things before visiting the graveyard. The world is big and confusing, the wider universe {seemingly unaccounted for outside science} even more so; a feeling of significance in the middle of it all is nice, I suppose.

 

[Trifoilum]

<nonDMmode>

If not, people would do the same things under a different banner. There are other ways to free oneself from fear as well than simply believing in an afterlife of some description.

I would agree; fear exists without religion.
But a significant chunk of fear -is- a metaphysical one; fear of divine retribution, fear of hell, for instance. Those are long-term as opposed to fear on direct repercussion. Would you think the nonexistence of religion will lead to some removal of those fears?

Removing the one BIG source of making people feel small, the notion of a God who needs anything at all from human beings and has both the power and right to take it if you don't give it to him, could only be a good thing. If religion had never existed then the materialist grandeur displayed by many organised religions would not be present and I suppose the only sign of materialist grandeur would be the spoils of the capitalist system we have in place today. Perhaps, with there being no love of mammon ever having been visible in the religions that didn't exist, it would perhaps be one of many options for a fulfilling life because it has never been given that divine approval that perhaps people still unconsciously observe today.

So you're stating that materialism stems from religion / religious institutions?
While I think I can see where you're going especially given that your examples are based in reality rather than ideas, aren't most religious dogma eschews materialism and physical greed over spiritual enlightenment?

Also, how powerful do you think divine approval is, in terms of its effect to human ethics and moral?

If it had never existed, I think people would find a way. A better way or maybe the same way. Maybe it is necessary to be very ignorant - I think it could be part of it.
The subjective, personal journey is the way though. There is no right way or wrong way only YOUR way and that is the thing we give so little value to when it is the most important thing.

In other worlds, the world keeps rotating..?
I do agreed that the personal journey is the only way. But differences in factors will create a different terrain, and thus will make an entirely different journey between people of each worlds.

 

[Trifoilum]

To decide how a world would function without something, we need to clarify what effects that something has had on one with it. In short: what has religion inspired? Culture, history, historical movements, philosophies, and psychology come to my mind. Sifting through all of this may take some time, since separating correlation and causation tends to be difficult. Then, determine whether these effects can be produced by something else and, if so, any examples of such that either have already occurred or are occurring. Have we any anthropologists, theologians, philosophers, or psychologists to call upon?

Indeed, that's the point of the exercise!
*puts DM hat* I think the gaps can be filled with any other aspects of reality--religions created a significant chunk of our own, but it's not the only way. Whence why I'm separating the idea into two different worlds.

What part of the culture and history does religion make / help to make? How are they affecting the entire reality and history?
What are the philosophies religion in our reality has helped to create?

Well, I'm saying one of two things, depending:

1. If animism is counted as religious, then I'd consider it inseparable. In that case I can't imagine arriving at the place we are now without that ever happening. It would be like positing a world where nothing ever acts like itself - it can't really be made sense of.

How different would it be?
And yet again, there would be some substitute within certain levels, at the very least practical ones (if you don't have spears, use swords. If you don't have swords, use twigs). Would it be so drastic in your conception?

Without God, there is no one to keep Cthulhu at bay. Except for those fine folks at Miskatonic University, but they're fictional.

View attachment 17367

LOL Cthulhu vs God.

 

[sprinkles]

How different would it be?
And yet again, there would be some substitute within certain levels, at the very least practical ones (if you don't have spears, use swords. If you don't have swords, use twigs). Would it be so drastic in your conception?

I don't think we'd go beyond apes living in trees because without a catalyst of spiritual questioning, there's no utilitarian reason to do otherwise.

Without that stepping stone, we would not have had art, nor music, nor medicine or science. We probably could have skipped directly to those things foregoing more organized religion (and there might even be some evidence of this actually happening in some places in the world) but barring that, I think that without the initial stage of animism we would not have reached the higher stages of questioning purpose or qualities of existence.

 

[Trifoilum]

I don't think we'd go beyond apes living in trees because without a catalyst of spiritual questioning, there's no utilitarian reason to do otherwise.

Without that stepping stone, we would not have had art, nor music, nor medicine or science. We probably could have skipped directly to those things foregoing more organized religion (and there might even be some evidence of this actually happening in some places in the world) but barring that, I think that without the initial stage of animism we would not have reached the higher stages of questioning purpose or qualities of existence.

I see.
*puts DM hat* That's great; perhaps try thinking more about how its world would roll? Would that world be perhaps less developed, less modern than our world / the other world?

What about the world where religion existed once, but is now dead?
*puts DM hat off*

Now, responding to your claim..I dunno.
I mean, all of them have practical usage beyond its religious use. As in, I can see the development being stunted (religions -was- used to include seminaries and universities, after all), but all of those being nonexistent sounds unlikely.
Art and music, for instance, was used for recreational purposes before it was used for rituals and religious practices.

However, as far as purpose and qualities of existence, I highly suspect it would be affected heavily, yes.
A lot of ideas related to those two, whether related to religion or not, draws from the collected consciousness, namely the idea of a higher state of consciousness.
And that idea relies a lot, or I would even posit for them to be built by ideas and elements from religion, spirituality, and higher beings.

If religions does not exist, would there be little to no 'spirituality'? no higher or deeper meaning beyond what is felt, tasted, seen, heard?

That'd be the question I, as a person, am positing.
For the practical to extend beyond the here and now, beyond the physical....

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=2172]Trifoilum[/MENTION]

Well, practicality in itself is a constructed illusion. Why do we actually do anything that we do?

As far as music goes though, some of the oldest crafted instruments we have found go back about 35,000 to 40,000 years old or more, so it's really hard to say what type of music came first and why.

I do think spirituality can exist without religion, though. We'd just flow with it instead of wording about it.

 

[Trifoilum]

@Trifoilum
Well, practicality in itself is a constructed illusion. Why do we actually do anything that we do?

Survival?
Or at least the assumption that practicality will lead to higher chance of survival.

As far as music goes though, some of the oldest crafted instruments we have found go back about 35,000 to 40,000 years old or more, so it's really hard to say what type of music came first and why.

I can see lots of other uses for music / things that constituted music (like rhythm, melody, chants) aside from recreation and religion ..but yeah, I guess we can't really know.

I do think spirituality can exist without religion, though. We'd just flow with it instead of wording about it.

So it would be more emotional, less cerebral / mental.

 

[sprinkles]

Survival?
Or at least the assumption that practicality will lead to higher chance of survival.

Well survival itself doesn't necessarily lead to advancement. The Inuit were a great example of that, living in one of the harshest climates possible and their entire spiritual culture was pretty much based around survival and was largely untouched until the 17th century even though they had some run-ins with the vikings much earlier than that.

I can see lots of other uses for music / things that constituted music (like rhythm, melody, chants) aside from recreation and religion ..but yeah, I guess we can't really know.

Yeah. My dad's wife is an anthropologist, so I might see if she knows anything about this stuff.

So it would be more emotional, less cerebral / mental.

I suspect so.