[INFJ] ENTP guy absolutely crazy about INFJ girl and need your help! Grateful for insights

[INFJ16]

9. She has never said a single thing that can be interpreted as romantic.
10. She has mentioned how she how secure or comfortable she feels around me.

Okay so I'll answer the parts I feel like I can. I'm an INFJ, and if I told a guy that I felt secure or comfortable around him, well just saying that would mean a lot to me since I'm usually really selective about what I say to people (and being comfortable with someone is really important to me). Actually, I have said that to a guy that I liked. This is just me though so it might be like your INFJ Lady but it might not. So the same guy that I liked (and who also liked me) was basically always the first to text me (by the way I think he is an ESFP). This was for two reasons:
1) I'm not really fond of texting. I often just feel weird or like I'm acting like a different person. Plus, I like deep talks and texting tends to be pretty shallow. I don't want to have a serious conversation over texting which only leaves small talk (limited amount of small talk in my vocabulary). I'm way better at talking to people face to face.
2) Even though I liked talking to him, I'm was wayyyy less social then he was.I never purposely made sure he was the first one to initiate contact, that is just the way it happened. If he had held out longer, I would have talked to him first. I just don't need the constant contact of other people. After a day of socializing the last thing I want to do is carry out a superficial texting conversation with someone, even if I liked them.

I know that there is the whole "Opposites attract thing" but that guy and I turned out to be too different. For one, he was too intermittent with his feelings. He would like me for a few months, but then the honeymoon phase of his crush would fade, and he would crush on someone else for a few months (then back to me and so on). He always came on too strong (scared me) then disappeared too fast.

Personally, I would find it discouraging knowing that you had just gotten out of a relationship that only lasted for about two months. To me it's just not a good sign; my guards would go right up.

I'm also not much of an initiator. If it bothers you that much it's probably not a good thing. I get why you are frustrated by it, but she isn't just going to change in one night. In fact she might not change at all. I know that as I grow older I will get bolder, but that part of me that isn't into the initiating thing is still going to be there.
BTW INFJs (not all of course, but I do this and I know other INFJs do too) sometimes make a list. I just automatically make a list of all the reasons a relationship won't work. Even if I want to dive right into a relationship I use this mental list to keep me grounded. If you guys aren't compatible (and it sounds like you're probably not) she might already see that but be conflicted because she still feels something for you. Then again she might just not want to hurt your feelings and face an awkward conversation to turn you down. Again, I don't know her, but this is all I got. I hope it helps!

 

[INFJok]

[MENTION=12897]crazyabouther[/MENTION] WOW, I've never heard of a romantic ENTP! You must be head over heels, heels overhead!


The only advice I can give you is to be blunt. Not in an intimidating way though! INFJ ladies, like an ENTPs blunt humor and honesty. I think that's what attracts us to you guys. Just ask her those honest questions you asked us here on this forum the next time you guys hang out. I'm actually surprised that you guys have hung out numerous times and haven't brought this up!

 

[Awesome]

Has he simply failed to sexualise things?

Yes.

 

[Paideia]

I think he gave us an honest description of what's going so that he could get honest feedback.

This is no doubt true. But I know at least I have a very vivid imagination, and our infatuated friend might be the same. I asked about the sexualizing because really, in the end, there's no point theorizing about all this. He's got to make a move. It sounds like he hasn't felt the opportunity was right. Either he's too timid, or his gut is right. Probably both, since confidence breeds sexual interest.

It sounds like, on the surface of it, she ain't interested. He should start by putting her out of his mind. That means not checking her FB, or anything like that, and going AWOL for a month or more. He has to meet other girls. Then, when he's in a position where he's going to add energy to the action, rather than suck it out of the interaction by being needy, he can try and hit her up but in a more sexualized way.

Then again she might just not want to hurt your feelings and face an awkward conversation to turn you down. Again, I don't know her, but this is all I got. I hope it helps!

One way of moving on would be simply asking her if she sees anything romantic happening between you guys. But generally, if you have to ask, it's because the answer will be no. So of course, one would rahter not ask, because everyone knows this.

[MENTION=12897]crazyabouther[/MENTION] WOW, I've never heard of a romantic ENTP! You must be head over heels, heels overhead!

He's gotten himself worked up in his head. Ne/Fe on overdrive.

Yes.

Ok, that's one perspective. Am actually in a similar situation, but there are so many unknowns I was going crazy. When I'm done with my current project I'm gonna ask my INFJ out... could go either way, but I fear I'm in the same boat. Except I always got the make-out and there have been signs in my favor but some serious signs against it too. I just can't take it anymore, so I'm gonna come out shooting any moment now.

 

[cvp12gh5]

[MENTION=11734]Paideia[/MENTION]

I read your first post incorrectly so I apologize. But yes, I agree with going AWOL.

 

[HunterO]

I'm curious, is she from a particular culture in which people tend to be more private about their mourning? I do know that for some nations, it is more of a sign of respect to refrain from asking too many questions to people in mourning, and give them their own space to grieve.

In any case, if you're planning this holiday with her in a few months time, I really don't think going AWOL would be the most effective way to deal with the uncertainties that you are experiencing now. People tend to be further distanced by non-communication, and during an argument if people do not resolve it in the first 48 hours, it will lead to further resentment and launch a cycle of harbouring ill feelings and reactionary emotional states.

I think the best thing to do in this case is to simply have a conversation with her about it. After all, we internet people can give only so much advice based on hearsay and one-sided information. It is sometimes best to ask from the source exactly what is going on.

 

[crazyabouther]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the thoughts. Here's some responses to the things you've said and asked.

1. I cannot make a move to have sex with her, because we come from relatively conservative (Asian) backgrounds. Plus, that is not the goal here and knowing her, she is never going to sleep with anyone just for the sex. It has to be a relationship based on depth and connection for that to happen with her. We are both in our mid-20s.

2. In my haste, angst or unhappiness, I was too quick to declare her as "un-initiating". But when I think about it, there were a few times when I suggested us going to an event or movie and she would agree. And then, because she knew that I felt a little stupid always initiating (cuz I told her), she had called up the establishments to make reservations etc. So yes, I guess I was being a little unfair saying that she never initiates.

3. She had told me she hates messaging. So I suppose it would be a little unfair for me to expect her to change how she feels about that.

4. If I ask her if she would like to do something, she usually does say yes. And in times when it is clear to her that I feel a little strange initiating too much, she takes it on herself to see the plans through. A part of me feels whether she is just being nice/ does not want to hurt feelings but I am not sure.

5. She is quite content staying at home inside her room, and not socializing with too many people. So while I may be a lot more outgoing, it just isn't who she is. She has told me about this fact too. Despite all this, we have hung out loads of times alone. Usually always ends up with much intoxication and a lot of fun, but I do want to do more lest she feels uncomfortable, and I want her to trust me.

6. She has told me once how she has done a lot of things for the first time in her life, with me. Just a few trivial things like getting wasted in public, staying up till 9 AM etc. (maybe trivial to me, but important to her?)

7. I do get the feeling sometimes that she is testing me to see whether or not I am serious with her. Considering my recent 2 month relationship before her. She had made jokes about how I do not know what I want, or that I am not able to fully devote/ commit/ etc. I suppose she may have been referring to that?

8. About my family trauma thing-- I have no idea. It is not in my culture to be quiet and not follow up. Maybe she thought I needed my space? I keep giving her the benefit of doubt here...

I know a lot of this sounds at odds with my OP. But I think having some time to reflect on the other details is important. Do these (relatively) positive facts make a difference to you guys?

Again, I really appreciate the time and insights you all are sharing and look forward to your replies.

 

[Paideia]

Dude, you can speculate all you want.

Truth is, ENxPs, assuming one is not socially retarded, and INFJs will have a natural way of speaking to each other, so you don't need to worry about following a manuscript with her.

If you hang out with her, you ALWAYS have to be escalating. Holding hands and cuddling is for people who are thinking about having babies together. You're nowhere near that. You should make sure to touch her though. Grab her hand and give it a squeeze to tell her you're happy, high five her if she's talking about an exploit (that usually gets a laugh). You just have to pay attention to her body language - is she facing you, or is she facing away when you speak to her? If your chemistry is good, you can look her deep in the eyes, touch her hair, and tell her you think it's beautiful. If she doesn't pull away or brush you off, you kiss her.

The above applies not just to INFJs, but to all girls, everywhere, all the time.

It sounds to me like this girl is probably not interested in you. So for your own sake, start dating other girls. You can see her, but make a rule that for every date you have with her you must at least one other date with a different girl. Otherwise you're going to waste you life thinking about her.

I'm in a similar situation, and the only thing I can do is ask the girl in question out. Only if we hang out together can I gauge her body language and other cues of interest. Worrying about this stuff over the internet is like praying for the bad things to happen to you. You want good stuff to happen, so worry about stuff you can control - your career, your finances, your health, stuff like that.

 

[HunterO]

Dude, you can speculate all you want.

Truth is, ENxPs, assuming one is not socially retarded, and INFJs will have a natural way of speaking to each other, so you don't need to worry about following a manuscript with her.

If you hang out with her, you ALWAYS have to be escalating. Holding hands and cuddling is for people who are thinking about having babies together. You're nowhere near that. You should make sure to touch her though. Grab her hand and give it a squeeze to tell her you're happy, high five her if she's talking about an exploit (that usually gets a laugh). You just have to pay attention to her body language - is she facing you, or is she facing away when you speak to her? If your chemistry is good, you can look her deep in the eyes, touch her hair, and tell her you think it's beautiful. If she doesn't pull away or brush you off, you kiss her.

The above applies not just to INFJs, but to all girls, everywhere, all the time.

It sounds to me like this girl is probably not interested in you. So for your own sake, start dating other girls. You can see her, but make a rule that for every date you have with her you must at least one other date with a different girl. Otherwise you're going to waste you life thinking about her.

I'm in a similar situation, and the only thing I can do is ask the girl in question out. Only if we hang out together can I gauge her body language and other cues of interest. Worrying about this stuff over the internet is like praying for the bad things to happen to you. You want good stuff to happen, so worry about stuff you can control - your career, your finances, your health, stuff like that.

[MENTION=11734]Paideia[/MENTION] I'm really glad that you contributed your thoughts on the initial phase of dating. I think a lot of women find American men hard to date because of what you wrote above. I think when initially dating, there are these unknowns- and instead of problem-solving the issues and talking through it together- to simply go AWOL and immediately start going out with other women will really ensure the end of the relationship. If you think about the mindset of a woman, why would she invest time and energy into a guy who disappears and starts fishing a large group of women? For sure that will turn her off.

I think perhaps European men seem more desirable to women around the world, because they focus on one woman at a time and know how to seduce her mind, body and soul and not play these games which can appear a desperate ploy to get laid.

 

[Paideia]

People date people they get along with. If there's chemistry, you'll go out.

There are two sides to this:

On the one hand, I didn't say he should tell this INFJ he is seeing other girls. But it would be to his advantage if she found herself wondering this, unsure what the real answer is. IF there is something between them, she needs to step up and make a claim. He has already clearly demonstrated interest. If she doesn't reciprocate, it's looking bleak.

On the other hand, he needs to do this in order to stop thinking about this girl so much. Even if they do eventually get together, this obsession is not healthy. So for his own sake. He doesn't owe this girl ANYTHING. He needs to put his own health first.

Another thing about dating that you don't seem to think is true, but is most certainly the case. THis is not relevant here, because I'm not recommending he divulge the fact he is going to date other girls.

For women, her value means she has options. For men, having options implies value. Understand the difference?

Girls like guys that other girls like, because girls are interested in a lot more than just looks. So if one girl likes a guy, a second girl knows he is probably a desirable man. For men, this is not necessary. You see a cute girl, you know she's cute, and unless she's a total b****, you're interested in wooing her.

 

[HunterO]

People date people they get along with. If there's chemistry, you'll go out.

There are two sides to this:

On the one hand, I didn't say he should tell this INFJ he is seeing other girls. But it would be to his advantage if she found herself wondering this, unsure what the real answer is. IF there is something between them, she needs to step up and make a claim. He has already clearly demonstrated interest. If she doesn't reciprocate, it's looking bleak.

On the other hand, he needs to do this in order to stop thinking about this girl so much. Even if they do eventually get together, this obsession is not healthy. So for his own sake. He doesn't owe this girl ANYTHING. He needs to put his own health first.

Another thing about dating that you don't seem to think is true, but is most certainly the case. THis is not relevant here, because I'm not recommending he divulge the fact he is going to date other girls.

For women, her value means she has options. For men, having options implies value. Understand the difference?

Girls like guys that other girls like, because girls are interested in a lot more than just looks. So if one girl likes a guy, a second girl knows he is probably a desirable man. For men, this is not necessary. You see a cute girl, you know she's cute, and unless she's a total b****, you're interested in wooing her.

Again, I really appreciate you showing an insight into the American male psyche.

It seems that the strategy that you are proposing to snag a lady's attention is primarily through deceit and manipulation. Firstly, by filling her with distrust and uncertainty so that she may feel pressurised into making a claim before she's ready. Secondly, to withhold important information from her, and date other women behind her back whilst at the same time, pretending to be really into her and even planning a trip together. I wonder though, how this lady would feel when she finds out that she's been deceived? Do you think that sort of mindset is going to predispose her into making a claim on the OP?

My guess: HELL NO.

Also, you are suggesting the OP dates around so that he is not singularly focused on the lady in question. Essentially, this type of multi-tasking doesn't work in the corporate world and it doesn't work in romantic relationships. If a man or woman goes around dating a lot of people, chances are their attentions are divided and the feelings may be lukewarm all around, which ends up becoming a series of unfulfilling dates that people don't feel strongly about either way. Of course, there are people who are happy in that situation, but after awhile those people enter an emotionally reactive cyclical pattern which ends up becoming psychologically damaging.

In the initial phases of dating, trust is something that is given boundaries, tested, and built on to potentially build something more. When in the initial phases, it is stomped down with the multi-tasking of people, and utilising hardball tactics of deceit and manipulation to elicit reactive states of mind, the players are really only in it for the endgame.

And to be fair, everyone, male and female, have plenty of options. Being valued is not about having lots of options. Being valued is related to how the couple values each other and how they value themselves. A woman with any kind of self-respect is not going to privy towards the American male dating mindset, so what you will eventually attract are women with low self-esteem, women who similarly plays games and multi-tasks men, and women who put their value into stealing what other women have and abused women who are not used to being treated with courtesy and respect.

If that's what the OP is looking for, I say go for it.

 

[Paideia]

Ok, this will be the last input from my part, because we're not going to agree on the objective truth.

First off, I'm not American, so you're just exposing your own weird prejudices. It doesn't strengthen your argument.

Did I write about tricking her into anything? No. You said that. That's a strawman. I observe that women tend to chase the same men, just as men chase the same women. The reason is how the sexes perceive attractiveness. From what I can tell, this girl doesn't perceive our friend as very attractive or they'd have gotten further. I'm not telling him to lie, I'm telling him to focus on other things, including other girls.

There's no reason you can't date around and still not have a primary interest, but it takes two to tango. When she reciprocates his feelings, then maybe they can talk about exclusivity. But she has to show vulnerability the way he is showing vulnerability. Why do you want him to put his life on hold for this girl who is doing nothign for him, and perhaps even only using him for validation? Where's your sense of fairness?

This multi-tasking analogy is just wrong, sorry. Are you going to date a guy who sends you texts every day because he's got nothing better to do, or are you going to be more interested in the guy who takes it easy because he's got a lot on his plate? The answer is obvious.

And to be fair, yes people have options. Just not with people they're attracted to. That's life.

And since you're an ENTJ, the concept of value as an objective measure shouldn't be a foreign concept to you. You can talk about subjective measures of value, but there is such a thing as dating market in which we all have a value that we're always assesssing and can never escape from. If that wasn't true, no one would get divorced, but they do.

A woman with self-respect will spend her time with a man who is her match, and when she decides she wants to take things further with him, she will MAKE IT OBVIOUS that's what she wants. Again, it takes two to tango.

 

[HunterO]

Ok, this will be the last input from my part, because we're not going to agree on the objective truth.

First off, I'm not American, so you're just exposing your own weird prejudices. It doesn't strengthen your argument.

Did I write about tricking her into anything? No. You said that. That's a strawman. I observe that women tend to chase the same men, just as men chase the same women. The reason is how the sexes perceive attractiveness. From what I can tell, this girl doesn't perceive our friend as very attractive or they'd have gotten further. I'm not telling him to lie, I'm telling him to focus on other things, including other girls.

There's no reason you can't date around and still not have a primary interest, but it takes two to tango. When she reciprocates his feelings, then maybe they can talk about exclusivity. But she has to show vulnerability the way he is showing vulnerability. Why do you want him to put his life on hold for this girl who is doing nothign for him, and perhaps even only using him for validation? Where's your sense of fairness?

This multi-tasking analogy is just wrong, sorry. Are you going to date a guy who sends you texts every day because he's got nothing better to do, or are you going to be more interested in the guy who takes it easy because he's got a lot on his plate? The answer is obvious.

And to be fair, yes people have options. Just not with people they're attracted to. That's life.

And since you're an ENTJ, the concept of value as an objective measure shouldn't be a foreign concept to you. You can talk about subjective measures of value, but there is such a thing as dating market in which we all have a value that we're always assesssing and can never escape from. If that wasn't true, no one would get divorced, but they do.

A woman with self-respect will spend her time with a man who is her match, and when she decides she wants to take things further with him, she will MAKE IT OBVIOUS that's what she wants. Again, it takes two to tango.

Thanks again for your insights. It's interesting how you're now pretending not to be the typical American dude who reads fast seduction books, since that seems to be your primary methodology. In case you've forgotten your own words, here it is: "On the one hand, I didn't say he should tell this INFJ he is seeing other girls. But it would be to his advantage if she found herself wondering this, unsure what the real answer is."

Your tactic for seduction is deceit and manipulation. It's a hardball tactic based on instigating uncertainty and doubt in your target and suppressing trust in relationships. Only certain types of people are attracted to this type of manipulation and they are what I mentioned before. People who covet what others have.

In terms of objective value- that could potentially be assessed for inanimate objects or even valuation of companies. However for value in relationships, that is indeed a subjective value and it is clear that we have different personal values. Yours is the Fe sort in which you need external validation from people to deem your worth, whilst I am aware of my own value and I don't need every Tom, Dick and Harry to be in love with me, because I choose not to lead on people (objectively attractive or not) with whom I feel lukewarm about or have no interest in whatsoever. That is called common decency.

I'm sure there are loads of women and men alike who purposely like to lead on people for their own ego amusement, however those people you will find often think very little of themselves with nothing going for them in the first place.

If you're asking for a personal preference, I prefer men who text me and also have a lot going on in their lives and who prioritise me as being important in their lives. There are loads of people who are objectively attractive, but their psychology is what is not attractive to me. Your mindset definitely reiterates why American men have a negative reputation within the dating world. You're just not the type of worldly gentleman that British men are.

 

[Paideia]

never mind...

can't be bothered to argue with someone who prefers to make the discussion about framing my perspective in terms of weak character instead of what is objectively the best approach. The accusation of manipulation is appropriately ironic coming from you, Hunter.

 

[HunterO]

never mind...

can't be bothered to argue with someone who prefers to make the discussion about framing my perspective in terms of weak character instead of what is objectively the best approach. The accusation of manipulation is appropriately ironic coming from you, Hunter.

Perhaps I was being a bit harsh, but I am definitely not attracted to "manipulative" people. I think there's a world of difference between being influential to someone and purposely manipulating someone for your own gain.

Also, note that I didn't mention a weak character but that I alluded to actions that were not derivative of common decency.

I think some of the problematic issues about the American male style of dating is the following:

1) problem solving is weak (ie, does not approach conflict with a mature attitude, instead avoids it altogether)

2) do not take responsibility for their actions (ie, does not admit when wrong, instead blames the other as being "crazy" etc. There is no one crazy person in a relationship)

3) has a one-step solution to diverse engagement with people (ie, your approach in this kino-fast seduction method, made me laugh.)


How about just getting to know a woman and taking things step by step? What's wrong with that?

 

[Reon]

Perhaps I was being a bit harsh, but I am definitely not attracted to "manipulative" people. I think there's a world of difference between being influential to someone and purposely manipulating someone for your own gain.

Also, note that I didn't mention a weak character but that I alluded to actions that were not derivative of common decency.

I think some of the problematic issues about the American male style of dating is the following:

1) problem solving is weak (ie, does not approach conflict with a mature attitude, instead avoids it altogether)

2) do not take responsibility for their actions (ie, does not admit when wrong, instead blames the other as being "crazy" etc. There is no one crazy person in a relationship)

3) has a one-step solution to diverse engagement with people (ie, your approach in this kino-fast seduction method, made me laugh.)


How about just getting to know a woman and taking things step by step? What's wrong with that?

Just a note of clarity: when you say American Male style of dating: do you mean white american males? All males including homosexual ones? Does this include trans* men?

--

Outside of that, [MENTION=12897]crazyabouther[/MENTION], do you actually want to date this individual? You haven't described her in the most flattering of lights (out of frustation) and that's not a good sign for right now and in the future. If you feel slighted now and you are just friends, that's already changing the relationship between you two nad in the future your disapproval is going to increase as your feelings intensify in the future if the individual you're talking about has these traits as part of her persona. It's one thing to hope that everything falls in line when you start dating and all that glitter and jazz but that never happens. Everyone else has talked about the lady in question and what you should do about her so my question is this

Do you actually want to date her? Or do you want to date the concept of her you have in your head?

My current partner (of 3 years at this point; friends for four years) has GAD; Generalized Anxiety Disorder. It was much more severe when we started dating. Anything that would cause a normal person to become a bit nervous made her anxious. We have known each other for fours years and we both still deal with that in our relationship and it's not going to go away. With that being said, even with GAD, she made plans with me and faux dates and she was able to emotionally support me when I needed it. She initiated things. So, I'm not really sure if she's into you.

Are you willing to accept that all the traits that she's displayed so far as actually a part of her personality? When people start dating, they change. Slowly, as they grow more comfortable, they start to go back to what they were like before. Only then should you make the decision to ask her out, lala.

 

[Paideia]

Also, note that I didn't mention a weak character but that I alluded to actions that were not derivative of common decency.

1) problem solving is weak (ie, does not approach conflict with a mature attitude, instead avoids it altogether)

2) do not take responsibility for their actions (ie, does not admit when wrong, instead blames the other as being "crazy" etc. There is no one crazy person in a relationship)

3) has a one-step solution to diverse engagement with people (ie, your approach in this kino-fast seduction method, made me laugh.)

How about just getting to know a woman and taking things step by step? What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that. At all. It's exactly what I recommend. But he's not going to get to know her well, if she is the only person he knows.

Listen, I'm not sure what your experience with American men is. I get the impression you're projecting your own bad experiences, but I could be wrong and besides, it doesn't matter. Drop this "American vs. British" dating-style dichotomy. It's mindless and baseless.

As for touching, you can do a quick google search. Touching brings people closer together, and people want to touch and be touched all the time, anyways. It's totally natural. We don't have to be so Victorian, anymore. You can of course advise him to do the opposite, and keep his hands 100% to himself, but the facts say he will have less dating success this way (where success is defined going on dates so one gets to know more people). This also applies to body-language. All of these are important features in what makes an attractive male, and just because a bunch of young men have decided to use these increasingly well-known scientific facts to bed more women for the exclusive purpose of bedding more women doesn't mean they aren't true. You're entitled to yo

You're throwing the word manipulative around a lot. What I am recommending is as manipulative as wearing make-up to improve your looks. Making what I advise about more than simply improving your own attractiveness is a total strawman. Please stop it, it's very irritating and not at all helpful.

Let me tell you what manipulation would be. Manipulation would be to create expectations in others that you have no intention of honoring. That is wrong. I think we agree. By that definition, I don't think what I advise is manipulation.

My advice to our friend is simple:

1. This girl is probably not interested. Date other girls.

2. Even if she is interested, this is not a bad move, because it will help you put her in perspective (she is NOT perfect) and it will probably also help you obsess less about this girl. The added confidence of dealing with other people who might actually reciprocate your feelings will allow you to show this girl you're interested, but to not be affected if she's stringing you along (which I think she is, but no matter).

Personally, I am an open-book. I am not good at hiding my interest in a girl I fancy, but there is a difference to having one's interest be a compliment, and having it be a plea. Our friend is desperate. It's not attractive. He has to bring value to the table.

Anyone who thinks two people are exclusive just because you've held hands is out of their mind. Maybe a case could be made after making out, but personally I would just ask the girl what her thoughts on the matter are and decide based on what my gut tells me. If I got the impression a girl was old-fashioned, I'd consider it, but if I found out afterwards she was liberal, I'd probably dump her on the spot. THAT would be manipulation (by her).

 

[HunterO]

There's nothing wrong with that. At all. It's exactly what I recommend. But he's not going to get to know her well, if she is the only person he knows.

Listen, I'm not sure what your experience with American men is. I get the impression you're projecting your own bad experiences, but I could be wrong and besides, it doesn't matter. Drop this "American vs. British" dating-style dichotomy. It's mindless and baseless.

As for touching, you can do a quick google search. Touching brings people closer together, and people want to touch and be touched all the time, anyways. It's totally natural. We don't have to be so Victorian, anymore. You can of course advise him to do the opposite, and keep his hands 100% to himself, but the facts say he will have less dating success this way (where success is defined going on dates so one gets to know more people). This also applies to body-language. All of these are important features in what makes an attractive male, and just because a bunch of young men have decided to use these increasingly well-known scientific facts to bed more women for the exclusive purpose of bedding more women doesn't mean they aren't true. You're entitled to yo

You're throwing the word manipulative around a lot. What I am recommending is as manipulative as wearing make-up to improve your looks. Making what I advise about more than simply improving your own attractiveness is a total strawman. Please stop it, it's very irritating and not at all helpful.

Let me tell you what manipulation would be. Manipulation would be to create expectations in others that you have no intention of honoring. That is wrong. I think we agree. By that definition, I don't think what I advise is manipulation.

My advice to our friend is simple:

1. This girl is probably not interested. Date other girls.

2. Even if she is interested, this is not a bad move, because it will help you put her in perspective (she is NOT perfect) and it will probably also help you obsess less about this girl. The added confidence of dealing with other people who might actually reciprocate your feelings will allow you to show this girl you're interested, but to not be affected if she's stringing you along (which I think she is, but no matter).

Personally, I am an open-book. I am not good at hiding my interest in a girl I fancy, but there is a difference to having one's interest be a compliment, and having it be a plea. Our friend is desperate. It's not attractive. He has to bring value to the table.

Anyone who thinks two people are exclusive just because you've held hands is out of their mind. Maybe a case could be made after making out, but personally I would just ask the girl what her thoughts on the matter are and decide based on what my gut tells me. If I got the impression a girl was old-fashioned, I'd consider it, but if I found out afterwards she was liberal, I'd probably dump her on the spot. THAT would be manipulation (by her).

Sometimes I wonder if we're speaking the same language?

"But he's not going to get to know her well, if she is the only person he knows. " OK. So essentially, you are saying that all women are the same, so the OP must go out and make the same mistake over and over again with other women before he gets to know this one well? I don't know where you developed your logic and rhetoric skills, but that is one damned assumption to make.

Your advice is based on hearsay and your own failed experiences. I think the OP should ask the woman directly exactly what she thinks. Yes, imagine that, asking the subject in question what she really feels and thinks instead of a bunch of people on the internet assuming they know her well.

Our definition of "desperate" is different. To you being "desperate" is showing strong interest in a woman and pursuing her. I hate to break it to you, but most women prefer this sort of man. Women prefer the man who is the go-getter, knows what he wants and how to get it. A man who does this is seen as "confident" not desperate. Every woman is going to struggle initially when a man shows interest in her, it's because she wants to be convinced that he wants her. Women prefer this type of man over a passive-aggressive one who plays games and dates around to compensate for his fragile ego.

To me "desperate" is a guy who feels so insecure about not knowing if a woman is interested in him or not, that he goes out and fishes a large pool of women to try to gain confidence with women he isn't as interested in. It's the American guy who doesn't approach the woman at a bar he is really interested in, and tries to hit on her friend. That is typical American guy behaviour- dishonest and cowardly.

I prefer British men because they are taught to be direct. "I'm not seeing anyone else, are you?" "I just want you to know that you're the only woman I can see myself with in 20 years" "Hunter, I want to know how you see us down the line." If a man is straightforward, he wins so much of my respect, because it shows that he is confident and aggressive and understands what he wants and how to get it and also know how to articulate it. That is such a turn on.

As opposed to American men. "I don't know what I want." "I don't know what I'm doing." "I hate my exes." "I hate all women" "Women are all bitches" "Women are always looking for a bigger and better deal" "Women are all golddiggers" etc. Then these are the same men who go around trying to sleep with every woman in town, then spend all their time hanging out with strippers to gain some "confidence". It's just such a turn-off.

Also if some guy tries to keep touching me when I barely know him, he will receive a karate punch in the gut. So your kino-theory only works if the couple has already been intimate.

Of course, there are American men, those rare breed who are exempt from this wide pictoral sketch- but most likely they are most likely older (50+) and not the current Gen Y or Millenial generation of American Men who were bred to be insolent, misogynistic and wantonly lacking in conversation skills.

 

[Paideia]

You are oblivious to rational discussion and you also refuse to acknowledge facts. Good luck with your life

PS. also this gem "your advice is based on hearsay and own failed experiences". I'm really amazed at how you make things so personal so fast. Are you very angry and bitter? Do you only feel like you win an argument if you make someone else feel bad?

You'er not at all trying to understand what I write. You have your own pre-conceived notions and are totally unwilling to read what I write in the spirit it's meant to be understood.

 

[HunterO]

You are oblivious to rational discussion. Good luck with your life

Oh the Argument ad Hominem. Sign of a feeble mind who can't support his own arguments.