[ENFP] ENFPs: the least intellectual NF?

[HunterO]

Why do you say Einstein was ENFP? He is almost universally typed as INTP and if you are familiar with his bio and work INTP fits very well.

I don't mean to say ENFPs are not smart. The ones I know certainly are. The distinction I made was that ENFPs tend to flit across the surface of many subjects rather than dive deeply into a few, that they are the proverbial jack of all trades and masters of none. Of course, there will be many ENFPs who work in a profession where they have acquired a deep knowledge of their fields. But as a group, how common is this specialization? Is it not rather the case that ENFPs prefer and actually do learn a little of this and a little of that?

I think Einstein is a cross between INFP/ENFP. Also if you've read his book, "Why I don't believe in God," and "the World as I see it", he does not write anything like an INTP. His personal values reflect more of a Fi + Te sensibility. Of course, socionics and MBTI likes to think all scientists are INTPs and all artists are ISFPs and all ENTJs are military generals but it's rarely the case in reality.

Also INTPs excel in traditional academics. Einstein flunked a lot of his classes and eventually dropped out. He was also a charismatic speaker and could tell jokes to a large group of people (not very INTPish). Einstein also said "Imagination is more important than knowledge". He was a visual thinker who believed more in possibilities than facts (again, not INTPish). Supposedly he was also a charismatic flirt and philanderer who had 6 extra-marital affairs.

Charismatic flirts? Usually ENFPs

 

[Switchgirl]

Eh, I consider myself a Ne-Dom and I've interacted with many Ne-doms. They are interested in a myriad of intellectual topics and form a lot of new and inspiring ideas.

They're just smart enough to not share them with you, so you won't steal their most valuable and genius ideas.

 

[la boheme]

I think Einstein is a cross between INFP/ENFP. Also if you've read his book, "Why I don't believe in God," and "the World as I see it", he does not write anything like an INTP. His personal values reflect more of a Fi + Te sensibility. Of course, socionics and MBTI likes to think all scientists are INTPs and all artists are ISFPs and all ENTJs are military generals but it's rarely the case in reality.

Also INTPs excel in traditional academics. Einstein flunked a lot of his classes and eventually dropped out. He was also a charismatic speaker and could tell jokes to a large group of people (not very INTPish). Einstein also said "Imagination is more important than knowledge". He was a visual thinker who believed more in possibilities than facts (again, not INTPish). Supposedly he was also a charismatic flirt and philanderer who had 6 extra-marital affairs.

Charismatic flirts? Usually ENFPs

Einstein earned a PhD in theoretical physics. He couldn't have done that if he had been a "dropout".

INFPs who have aux Ne are known as imaginative writers. INTPs also have aux Ne so why can't they write metaphorically and imaginatively, too? What do you mean by "INTP writing"?

If you look at his work, he relied heavily on thought experiments and logical deduction to create his theories of relativity. In his Special Theory of Relativity, for example, he assumed two principles to be true and simply deduced the necessary mathematical consequences therefrom. Very Ti.

His personality is also consistent with whimsical but detached, unemotional, and abstract intellectual INTP, not with social, people-centered, emotional ENFP. INTPs are not like INTJs and can also be quite flirtatious--they have Ne.

 

[HunterO]

Einstein earned a PhD in theoretical physics. He couldn't have done that if he had been a "dropout".

INFPs who have aux Ne are known as imaginative writers. INTPs also have aux Ne so why can't they write metaphorically and imaginatively, too? What do you mean by "INTP writing"?

If you look at his work, he relied heavily on thought experiments and logical deduction to create his theories of relativity. In his Special Theory of Relativity, for example, he assumed two principles to be true and simply deduced the necessary mathematical consequences therefrom. Very Ti.

His personality is also consistent with whimsical but detached, unemotional, and abstract intellectual INTP, not with social, people-centered, emotional ENFP. INTPs are not like INTJs and can also be quite flirtatious--they have Ne.

He received an "honourary degree" not an academic degree. Einstein dropped out of college.

 

[la boheme]

He received an "honourary degree" not an academic degree. Einstein dropped out of college.

From wiki:

In 1900, his paper "Folgerungen aus den Capillaritätserscheinungen" ("Conclusions from the Capillarity Phenomena") was published in the prestigious Annalen der Physik.[SUP][46][/SUP][SUP][47][/SUP] On 30 April 1905, Einstein completed his thesis, with Alfred Kleiner, Professor of Experimental Physics, serving as pro-forma advisor. As a result, Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zürich, with his dissertation entitled, "A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions."[SUP][48][/SUP][SUP][49][/SUP]

I read the paper he published from his dissertation. He developed a model of the random (Brownian) motion of small particles dispersed in a liquid and used it to estimate the size of the water molecules that he postulated produced the observed motions. At the time the existence of atoms and molecules was still up in the air and his PhD thesis helped establish their existence.

 

[HunterO]

From wiki:



I read the paper he published from his dissertation. He developed a model of the random (Brownian) motion of small particles dispersed in a liquid and used it to estimate the size of the water molecules that he postulated produced the observed motions. At the time the existence of atoms and molecules was still up in the air and his PhD thesis helped establish their existence.

He wrote loads of papers- but his degrees were still "honourary"

http://www.einstein-website.de/z_information/honours.html

Albert Einstein
Honours, prizes and awards:


1919 University of Rostock Honorary doctorate
1921 Princeton University Honorary doctorate
1922 Nobel Foundation, Stockholm Nobel Prize in Physics for the year 1921
1923 University of Madrid Honorary doctorate
1923 Order "Pour le mérite" Admission to the order
1923 Genootschap ter Bevordering van Natuur-, Genees- en Heelkunde Genootschaps Medal
1925 Royal Society of London Copley Medal
1926 Royal Astronomical Society Gold Medal
1929 German Physical Society Max-Planck-Medal
1930 ETH (Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule), Zurich Honorary doctorate
1931 Oxford University Honorary doctorate
1934 Yeshiva College, New York Honorary doctorate
1935 Franklin Institute, Philadelphia Benjamin Franklin Medal
1935 Harvard University Honorary doctorate

"Albert Einstein received honorary doctorate degrees in science, medicine and philosophy from many European and American universities. During the 1920's he lectured in Europe, America and the Far East, and he was awarded Fellowships or Memberships of all the leading scientific academies throughout the world. He gained numerous awards in recognition of his work, including the Copley Medal of the Royal Society of London in 1925, and the Franklin Medal of the Franklin Institute in 1935."

Like I said, he dropped out of university. He continued to write his controversial theories on relativity in which his professors did not support when he was an undergraduate. He pursued his own education by continuing his research outside of educational instututions and later received honourary degrees

 

[la boheme]

He wrote loads of papers- but his degrees were still "honourary"

http://www.einstein-website.de/z_information/honours.html

Albert Einstein
Honours, prizes and awards:


1919 University of Rostock Honorary doctorate
1921 Princeton University Honorary doctorate
1922 Nobel Foundation, Stockholm Nobel Prize in Physics for the year 1921
1923 University of Madrid Honorary doctorate
1923 Order "Pour le mérite" Admission to the order
1923 Genootschap ter Bevordering van Natuur-, Genees- en Heelkunde Genootschaps Medal
1925 Royal Society of London Copley Medal
1926 Royal Astronomical Society Gold Medal
1929 German Physical Society Max-Planck-Medal
1930 ETH (Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule), Zurich Honorary doctorate
1931 Oxford University Honorary doctorate
1934 Yeshiva College, New York Honorary doctorate
1935 Franklin Institute, Philadelphia Benjamin Franklin Medal
1935 Harvard University Honorary doctorate

"Albert Einstein received honorary doctorate degrees in science, medicine and philosophy from many European and American universities. During the 1920's he lectured in Europe, America and the Far East, and he was awarded Fellowships or Memberships of all the leading scientific academies throughout the world. He gained numerous awards in recognition of his work, including the Copley Medal of the Royal Society of London in 1925, and the Franklin Medal of the Franklin Institute in 1935."

Like I said, he dropped out of university. He continued to write his controversial theories on relativity in which his professors did not support when he was an undergraduate. He pursued his own education by continuing his research outside of educational instututions and later received honourary degrees

Of course he received many honorary degrees--he was Einstein! But he completed his doctoral thesis and received his PhD from Zurich in 1905.

http://www.oapt.ca/aapt/2005_winter_meeting/Einstein_PhD_130.pdf

And from your link:

On occasion of the 75[SUP]th[/SUP] anniversary of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich (Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule, ETH), Albert Einstein was awarded the Honorary Doctorate of Science in a ceremony on Friday, November 7, 1930. The nomination was initiated by the department of mathematics of the ETH.In the letter of the nomination it said: "To the completer of classical physics in the theory of relativity and the pioneer of quantum physics, its former student and teacher, in recognition of his excellent scientific performance and in thankful remembrance of his work which he performed for Switzerland and the college."

The honorary doctorate of his Alma mater surely meant a lot to Albert Einstein.

From October 1896 to July 1900 Einstein had studied at the ETH and from October 1912 to March 1914 he worked there as full professor for theoretical physics.

So the math profs decided to give Einstein a second PhD from Zurich, probably because his Theory of General Relativity used advanced mathematics and its equations and the theory were considered some of the most beautiful in physics.

 

[HunterO]

Of course he received many honorary degrees--he was Einstein! But he completed his doctoral thesis and received his PhD from Zurich in 1905.

No he received an honourary degree from ETH Zurich

1930 ETH (Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule), Zurich Honorary doctorate

@laboheme I know you're trying to push this egocentric view that ENFPs are not as smart as INTPs, but you should consider the facts before making prejudicial assertions. It may appear that you're acting in an immature way

"At the age of 15, Einstein dropped out of school. But his love of science and mathematics propelled him to further study, and eventually he continued his studies at the Polytechnic Institute in Zurich with a lackluster finish. His grades were too poor to earn him a position teaching, so Einstein ended up working at a Swiss patent office, where he worked on his theories in his spare moments."
http://www.inquisitr.com/1173518/albert-einstein-from-drop-out-to-world-changer/#gT6I6Z7RK6Afx5Ol.99

 

[la boheme]

No he received an honourary degree from ETH Zurich

1930 ETH (Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule), Zurich Honorary doctorate

@laboheme I know you're trying to push this egocentric view that ENFPs are not as smart as INTPs, but you should consider the facts before making prejudicial assertions. It may appear that you're acting in an immature way

"At the age of 15, Einstein dropped out of school. But his love of science and mathematics propelled him to further study, and eventually he continued his studies at the Polytechnic Institute in Zurich with a lackluster finish. His grades were too poor to earn him a position teaching, so Einstein ended up working at a Swiss patent office, where he worked on his theories in his spare moments."
http://www.inquisitr.com/1173518/albert-einstein-from-drop-out-to-world-changer/#gT6I6Z7RK6Afx5Ol.99

Please, let's not start making accusations that you can't prove and aren't true. The idea Einstein dropped out of school or didn't do well in school is one you sometimes encounter in pop culture, but it isn't true. Here's a link with a picture of his dissertation and a link to the paper he published therefrom.

http://www.science20.com/rational_m...ation_time_remembering_einsteins_dissertation

 

[HunterO]

Please, let's not start making accusations that you can't prove and aren't true. The idea Einstein dropped out of school or didn't do well in school is one you sometime encounter in pop culture, but it isn't true. Here's a link with a picture of his dissertation.

http://www.science20.com/rational_m...ation_time_remembering_einsteins_dissertation

He was not ENROLLED at ETH Zurich. He wrote papers in his SPARE TIME. He had no MASTERS degree. You need a MASTERS before an ACADEMIC PHD

He received an HONOURARY PHD from them.

those are the facts

 

[la boheme]

He was not ENROLLED at ETH Zurich. He wrote papers in his SPARE TIME. He had no MASTERS degree. You need a MASTERS before an ACADEMIC PHD

He received an HONOURARY PHD from them.

those are the facts

My friend, I've shown you evidence of his 1905 PhD he earned and the paper he published on it. We're not going to convince each other. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[HunterO]

My friend, I've shown you evidence of his 1905 PhD he earned and the paper he published on it. We're not going to convince each other. Let's just agree to disagree.

Einstein published 4 papers in 1905 while he worked at the Swiss Patent Office. 1905 is called his miracle year. Later ETH awarded him an honourary PhD from the papers he wrote in 1905, but later in 1930.

I think it might be hard for you to believe that he never received a MA or PhD in the traditional way as you seem very stubborn in accepting fact and probably get your info from wikipedia. However, if you read numerous books on his life and biographies, the consensus- which he HIMSELF talks about, is that he disliked academia, did not excel in academia and because of his poor grades, he worked in a PATENT OFFICE while he published 4 papers that would eventually change the world.

Next you will be telling me that Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs got a Phd too. Well at least two of them received HONOURARY ones, but they all dropped out of university too.

 

[La Sagna]

My oldest son is an ENFP and he is very smart and can discuss almost any subject in depth. I always get compliments from people about how smart he is. The one thing about him that can drive me crazy is that he loves playing devils advocate too much so that coming to a consensus on something can be very difficult as he will keep throwing in new opposing views just for the fun of it.

 

[charlatan]

Well this is one of those things where average tendency isn't the same as whether something is possible.

On average you might expect an INTJ to be the most willing to sit quietly and work in a way as to complete all the tasks, even if they are impersonal, and so forth, as they tend to be in school.

However, things like enneagram have influence too. If looking good to people is one of your motives, or if general high achievement is an independent drive then an ENFP can push himself/herself to sit quietly and do stuff, while giving themselves plenty of outlets for their ENFP ways --- maybe they start more clubs to discuss great poetry, and so forth, where an introvert may not exert outward as much.

 

[Reon]

I'm an ENFP and I can confirm that we're all shallow idiots.

Jack of all trades is definitely a term that applies. But while we lack the patience to pour over a textbook cover to cover, we fall into the wikipedia blackhole on the regular (or at least, that is my experience). Why have depth when you can have breadth? It makes it easier to grasp ideas on the spot because you've got multiple reference points, not to mention we're pretty damn good at bullshitting our way through things convincingly. Most of the time, it isn't even bullshit; we surprise ourselves by what we know and what we think about a subject, because we're 'think as we talk' people. You're not going to see us sitting on the toilet of life, pondering things. We're too busy playing CandyCrush and catching smatterings of your philosophical discussions which will probably come to us in the middle of another discussion later and we'll randomly connect it with the Jack the Ripper case when it comes up obliquely in the next couple of days.

I have no statistics for the average intellectual capability for ENFPS but from my personal experiences, I believe that they have a different way of thinking; this way of thinking being eluded to in the quote. If we are to remain locked into the brick and mortar conception of the types, INFJs and ENFPs have the same placement of thinking fuctions (tertiary Ti/Te) but the extraverted function should be more pronounced than the introved function. In theory, ENFPs should be placed over INFJs in noteable intellectution based on the system itself.

Realistically, I think the question is a big misguided. Although different types supposedly have different benefits and detriments to being seen as intellectual, I believe that the way a person has received reinforcement for being seen as intellectual is far more important than the type that they are. IE, if someone told another that they were a "Stupid, stuck up, smarty-pants", I doubt that they would be willing to be seen as intellectual and thus take on another model of presenting themselves. You can see this problem in athletes, from middle school to professional, trying to balance between presenting as a physical representation of human's physical might/capability while not trying to be seen as nerdy (of course, there are exceptions). You can see this among teachers as well.

So there's that.

 

[Trifoilum]

My take on this:
1) [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION] IS AN ENFP!?!?!?!?!?
1b) also, I echo all statement stated about her here.
2) Why do we get to a debate about Einstein's degree, of all things.
3) I think there are many levels of intellectual. I can easily see an ENFP being less in depth / philosophical than other NFs, but that does not mean they aren't intelligent in their own right. (And other NFs can be a buffoon too. Case in point: me)
4) I think their advantages are breadth and width, not depth.
5) They are, however, the type that plays a lot too. That could be very disadvantageous intellectually if they are circulating around communities in which intelligence or rationality or knowledge or wisdom are not primarily exercised.

 

[Alomoes]

Einstein is not INTP. That is Tesla. I think.

No, TheDaringHatTrick is not an ENFP. She is nobody, and everybody at the same time.

I've always seen Einstein as a sensor. Maybe ENTP. But yeah. INTPs are serious. ENTPs are not. His divorce provides reason for why I think sensor. And as for the failing math thing, Einstein did not. As much as you want him to be an INFJ, he's not. I've been there, done that.

ENFPs are those people who are quite good at reading hand gestures. It is why I now leave my palms out when speaking to people. It is also why I figure out me pointing the finger is.

I'm unsure of Trifolium's typing as INFJ though. INFJs are plastic. Trifolium is not plastic. But he/she should self identify. But then there are those who can't self identify. ENTPs. Mess everyone up. :C

I have faith in Trifolium though. He/she used the same kind of thinking I use on myself. I am Mycroft Holmes, a blundering fool. Nobody can be sure of the things I'm sure of. Yet most of the time, I'm right.

 

[Red]

I'm an ENFP and I can confirm that we're all shallow idiots.

Jack of all trades is definitely a term that applies. But while we lack the patience to pour over a textbook cover to cover, we fall into the wikipedia blackhole on the regular (or at least, that is my experience). Why have depth when you can have breadth? It makes it easier to grasp ideas on the spot because you've got multiple reference points, not to mention we're pretty damn good at bullshitting our way through things convincingly. Most of the time, it isn't even bullshit; we surprise ourselves by what we know and what we think about a subject, because we're 'think as we talk' people. You're not going to see us sitting on the toilet of life, pondering things. We're too busy playing CandyCrush and catching smatterings of your philosophical discussions which will probably come to us in the middle of another discussion later and we'll randomly connect it with the Jack the Ripper case when it comes up obliquely in the next couple of days.

Ok so mostly all of that is true but think about the depth you just exerted into that post, while we do indeed prefer a breadth of knowledge to a depth of knowledge, do not confuse that with a lack of intelligence. I can recal numerous accounts of my taking to a specific subject and diving deeply into it.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Least intellectual? Maybe. I guess ENFPs tend not to really care much about book learning. But on the other hand, I find them to have more creative intelligence (as in, able to brainstorm, find new paths, etc.) than virtually any other type, NF or other, except for maybe ENTPs, who are probably their equal. I think there's more than one kind of intelligence, and the type ENFPs seem to have is very valuable. I know they only score slightly above average, as a whole, in terms of IQ, but I don't think IQ tells everything. Of the ENFPs I've known, I've found them to be incredibly bright...