Duality and ESTj's | INFJ Forum

Duality and ESTj's

E

ENTroP

Community Member
Nov 24, 2009
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MBTI
ENTx
I am a follower of a Russian psychology system called Socionics, which is similar to MBTI, but different in many aspects.

Typing from MBTI does not always line up with typing in Socionics, as P vs J is based on how a person metabolizes information (although this usually leads to classic J or P characteristics such as messy vs neat, although not always).

However, Socionics is more in depth, and has a very elaborate intertype relationship system. According to Socionics, the Dual (perfectly compatible psychological relation, based on IM functions) to INFj is ESTj.

I have had a relationship of duality in the past, and from personal experience will testify to the fulfilling nature of the relationship.

Any experiences with ESTjs?
 
scocionic INFj is an MBTI INFP.
 
IndigoSensor said:
scocionic INFj is an MBTI INFP.
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That is a major oversimplification, and is untrue :(

The type most likely to line up with socionics INFj is either MBTI INFJ or INFP, with a statistical preference toward INFJ.

Anyways, would still be interesting to find out how INFJ relates to ESTJ!
 
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ENTroP said:
That is a major oversimplification, and is untrue :(

The type most likely to line up with socionics INFj is either MBTI INFJ or INFP, with a statistical preference toward INFJ.
Click to expand...

yes, but by cognitive processes

INFj socionics: Fi>Ne>Si>Ti
MBTI INFJ:Ni>Fe>Ti>Se

As you can tell the cognitive processes are different..this is because socionics keeps the J/P preferences for both introverts and extroverts as primary. In MBTI it is believe that the primary introverted function of introverts is not seen therefore people only see our auxiliary function and since we are J's it will be a J function meaning Fe.
 
ENTroP said:
That is a major oversimplification, and is untrue :(

The type most likely to line up with socionics INFj is either MBTI INFJ or INFP, with a statistical preference toward INFJ.

Anyways, would still be interesting to find out how INFJ relates to ESTJ!
Click to expand...

No.

INFj = Fi, Ne, Si, Te
INFp = Ni, Fe, Ti, Se

These are direct correlations to INFP and INFJ respectively.

INFj (aka INFP) relates to ESTJ very simply. They share the same base cognitive functions Fi, Ne, Si, Te.
 
Raccoon Love said:
yes, but by cognitive processes

INFj socionics: Fi>Ne>Si>Ti
MBTI INFJ:Ni>Fe>Ti>Se

As you can tell the cognitive processes are different..this is because socionics keeps the J/P preferences for both introverts and extroverts as primary. In MBTI it is believe that the primary introverted function of introverts is not seen therefore people only see our auxiliary function and since we are J's it will be a J function meaning Fe.
Click to expand...

I'm looking at a chart right now and EII (INFj socionics) 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th functions are: Fi, Ne, Ti and Se. In that order. Here's a link. http://www.socionics.us/types.shtml make sure to read the part about chart layout, because its kinda funny and reads:
12
43
65
78

Either way MBTI INFJ's dual would be either ESTJ or ESTP.
 
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I do seem to have problems with ESTJ even though I'm an INFP(for now). My parents are and I find very hard to relate to them not only that we have very conflicting views.
 
I'm not sure the INFJ in MBTI would jell well with the ESTJ. There are a number of examples here on the board of individuals struggling with STJ family members or parental figures. So, ESTJ is not likely the best match for the INFJ. I don't think sharing a Judging function is enough. The dogmatic style of the ESTJ would likely rub an NF the wrong way i believe. That's just an opinion of course.
 
Restraint said:
I'm not sure the INFJ in MBTI would jell well with the ESTJ. There are a number of examples here on the board of individuals struggling with STJ family members or parental figures. So, ESTJ is not likely the best match for the INFJ. I don't think sharing a Judging function is enough. The dogmatic style of the ESTJ would likely rub an NF the wrong way i believe. That's just an opinion of course.
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Yes, i find that most NF's would have a terribly hard time relating to any ST, I personally have an I'm in a very tough situation with my parents.
 
Raccoon Love said:
I do seem to have problems with ESTJ even though I'm an INFP(for now). My parents are and I find very hard to relate to them not only that we have very conflicting views.
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I'm ENTp and mom and dad are INFj and ISTj, respectively. The battles between us in my adolescence are epic.

I heard this from a friend and will repeat it here: Parents are outside the rules of normal intertype relations. Especially in socionics. According to that I'm my dad's supervisor! No way, he is most definitely the supervisor IRL.

Do not make intertype judgements based on your parents!
 
ENTroP said:
Do not make intertype judgements based on your parents!
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Question the system, not the person using it. Since the system doesn't adequately address differences in intertypical relationships depending on the social roles the persons in the relationship hold, it is unrealistic to not expect that the rule will be understood in a universal context.

Instead of critiquing what you consider to be a misunderstanding or misapplication of the theory, explain the nature of duality, intertypical relations, and how they should be understand (in your opinion) differently from other relationships including family relations.
 
Parent-child relationships are different than any other type of relationship that you will ever experience with other people. It makes sense that the rules are a bit different in regards to parents.

I wasn't questioning anyone D:
 
ENTroP said:
Parent-child relationships are different than any other type of relationship that you will ever experience with other people. It makes sense that the rules are a bit different in regards to parents.

I wasn't questioning anyone D:
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The point is, instead of stating that they are different, apart from the romantic functions, etc. why theoretically duality would be efficient and effective when it isn't in familial or social situations.

So, explain, since you disagree with everyone's application.
 
Restraint said:
The point is, instead of stating that they are different, apart from the romantic functions, etc. why theoretically duality would be efficient and effective when it isn't in familial or social situations.

So, explain, since you disagree with everyone's application.
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Well, how bout this scenario for instance.

A father, with a son who is socionically his supervisor. In some instances, this may be clear as the PoLR is often hit by the supervisor (the son). However, in most instances, the parental role overrides this, and different dynamics emerge.

Does it make sense to you that all intertype relations hold true regardless of social roles? No theory is that inflexible...
 
ENTroP said:
Well, how bout this scenario for instance.

A father, with a son who is socionically his supervisor. In some instances, this may be clear as the PoLR is often hit by the supervisor (the son). However, in most instances, the parental role overrides this, and different dynamics emerge.

Does it make sense to you that all intertype relations hold true regardless of social roles? No theory is that inflexible...
Click to expand...

What are these "dynamics" in a relationship context?
 
Restraint said:
What are these "dynamics" in a relationship context?
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When the dad tells the son what to do and constantly nags him and enforces his will with punishment/reward. This is father acting as supervisor, as opposed to son...

In addition, regardless of type, there may be disagreements between parent and child, even if parent and child are duals, that may lead to conflict.

E.g: religion, dating, etc...
 
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ENTroP said:
When the dad tells the son what to do and constantly nags him and enforces his will with punishment/reward. This is father acting as supervisor, as opposed to son...
Click to expand...

Now, in a romantic relationship . . .? How does this dynamic change and work?
 
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