[PUG] - DRUG TEST all college students, unemployment beneficiaries, public school children!!! | Page 9 | INFJ Forum

[PUG] DRUG TEST all college students, unemployment beneficiaries, public school children!!!

drugs are not good for us, generally speaking

perhaps there are special cases where pain medication could be appropriate but mostly drugs are abused

coca cola included

alcohol is one of the worst, most damaging drugs i've seen

i used to partake in drugs but that was the lifestyle i chose to live
i thought it was no big deal, and most people probably didn't know it if i was high or tripping with psychs

i felt somewhat empowered by the substances
i was drawn to the psychs for personal development, for existential exploration, for fun, it seemed innocent enough

but it is a slippery slope
i would not recommend any drugs to anyone now
i'm happy to have passed through that phase of life with health intact

no matter how responsible you think you are, altered states are altered states
introducing drugs into our system is a risk some are willing to take for whatever reason

what is the reason?
it comes down to our will, our knowledge of reality, our wisdom, our folly

we make a choice
sometimes people arent aware of the consequences of drug use

i dont know what to do about the laws
i think the lawmakers and the law enforcers are crooked

i think our govt in its current state would probably fall apart without the 'war on drugs'

i dont know if there is any solution

i just encourage folks to walk away from all drugs, alcohol, soda, tv, prescription meds, junk food, junk media...
there are more worthwhile pursuits
spend your time wisely
be healthy

if choosing sobriety makes me a square, so be it.

popular opinion is overrated
 
I like being square in a round world where everyone follows everyone else like sheep...that is true individuality! : - )
 
For example, Mr. Doobie, you chose the name Mr. Doobie and stuck a cartoon next to it, which tells me you think smoking pot is all fun and innocence and even childlike.

Actually, Mr. Doobie has nothing to do with weed. It is in fact based off of a childhood nickname. Not only that but I chose my avatar because I think it's adorable and I'm a brony. But nice attempt at armchair Freudian analysis.

That seems to be the general theme: "Oh, everybody's doing it, it's fun." (bit of a cliche! "Everyone's doing it, it'll make you feeeeeeelll good, I promise. People will like you. Girls will think you're hot.") Phbbbt. No. Everyone's not doing it, and the whole point is it is not always fun or harmless. I'd rather not subsidize it if I don't have to.

That wasn't my argument and never was. You're retreating backwards into the land of strawmen.

I like being square in a round world where everyone follows everyone else like sheep...that is true individuality! : - )

#1 - Everyone is a sheep, in their own way.

#2 - I am not convinced that the majority of the population is "doing it". I know a lot of people who do, I know a lot of people who don't.
 
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The square thing refers to those people who fit into the I am clean box. And like to proclaim it. If you have used your not a square. You can never be a square again. Once your state has been altered you cannot go back. Also known as Pandora's Box. Hence the square terminology. I have not partaken in years. And it was never a habit for me. I will not condemn those that do. It's not my place...
 
#1 - Everyone is a sheep, in their own way.

#2 - I am not convinced that the majority of the population is "doing it". I know a lot of people who do, I know a lot of people who don't.

I agree with you , Mr. Doobie, I was just being light-hearted...but, you are right, we are all sheep to an extent and I guess the only difference amongst groups are what shepherd we follow and what pasture we graze in but, yes, we all follow something.

BTW, I appreciated the irenic and amicable spirit in which you and I discussed this issue in this thread. Even though we may have disagreed on points, you seem like a very kind person and I appreciate that - thank you very much!
 
BTW, I appreciated the irenic and amicable spirit in which you and I discussed this issue in this thread. Even though we may have disagreed on points, you seem like a very kind person and I appreciate that - thank you very much!

The feeling is mutual. <3
 
Well said.

People seem to think it is about being "mean" or "uncaring" but it is a complex social issue with multiple factors involved.

On a simple level, if we gave our children anything and everything they wanted and never taught them any boundaries, any rules and any type of discipline, then they would not grow to become healthy, well-adjusted individuals.

I know from personal experience the affects of drugs in a persons life and to enable someone is not showing them love but helping them to kill themselves or destroy their lives sooner.

Ok, I think we have probably exhausted this. It is more complex, in my opinion, than just, "give them whatever they want, whenever they want it".

If that is the case, I will retire tomorrow and live off the public dole, I would feel no shame if people wanted to hand their money to me...as a matter of fact, if anyone wants to support me now....: - )

Right - a well balanced individual has to negotiate both absolute freedoms and absolute restrictions - and everything in between.


A saying I have heard: "If you want to murder a heroin addict, just give him $10,000 and lots of privacy."
 
A saying I have heard: "If you want to murder a heroin addict, just give him $10,000 and lots of privacy."

Clearly a saying from someone who doesnt know anything about heroin or heroin addicts, if you have 10 grand you dont have a problem yet.
 
I'm not for testing everyone, but based on personal experiences with a friend of mine, I say test those receiving actual cash money, including the prepaid debit cards.

My friend is a grandmother of four, with a learning-deficient druggie daughter (she's hard to describe, e.g. she won't make the connection between fat free milk and nonfat milk if sent to the store)and abusive felon baby-daddy always in tow. The daughter gets welfare, I think it's around 700/month now, and spends a good chunk of it on meth with her boyfriend. Those four poor children have had to go without food and clothes so many times it's ridiculous. I've known this woman and her family for seven plus years, and have given her food, clothes, organized blanket donation in winter for them, bought her groceries,etc. when she needed it most. She doesn't like to ask for help but will if the kids don't have food. Because of the druggie unfit mother she had for a daughter, she exhausted all family and friends resources. She got custody of the kids (after years of battling and always the daughter living with them) until the stress of working and never having her head above water gave her a stroke, at which time she lost custody and the daughter regained it. Currently the daughter has lost custody (police were involved and a scuffle between my friend and the boyfriend occurred) and a cousin of theirs has it, because my friend has not recovered enough from the stroke to care for children in her medical retirement.

So... if this "mother" of four has to be drug tested before getting welfare, I am all for it. Doesn't have to be often, random a few times a year would help.Those poor kids will be scarred for life because of her problems, and tax money funds this.

College students though, c'mon. It's a lot different in my opinion if you are responsible for others who can't get away from the situation, like children. Yes life is hard and drugs help avoid it, but it's not fair to put kids through hell too...
 
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I'm not for testing everyone, but based on personal experiences with a friend of mine, I say test those receiving actual cash money, including the prepaid debit cards.

My friend is a grandmother of four, with a learning-deficient druggie daughter (she's hard to describe, e.g. she won't make the connection between fat free milk and nonfat milk if sent to the store)and abusive felon baby-daddy always in tow. The daughter gets welfare, I think it's around 700/month now, and spends a good chunk of it on meth with her boyfriend. Those four poor children have had to go without food and clothes so many times it's ridiculous. I've known this woman and her family for seven plus years, and have given her food, clothes, organized blanket donation in winter for them, bought her groceries,etc. when she needed it most. She doesn't like to ask for help but will if the kids don't have food. Because of the druggie unfit mother she had for a daughter, she exhausted all family and friends resources. She got custody of the kids (after years of battling and always the daughter living with them) until the stress of working and never having her head above water gave her a stroke, at which time she lost custody and the daughter regained it. Currently the daughter has lost custody (police were involved and a scuffle between my friend and the boyfriend occurred) and a cousin of theirs has it, because my friend has not recovered enough from the stroke to care for children in her medical retirement.

So... if this "mother" of four has to be drug tested before getting welfare, I am all for it. Doesn't have to be often, random a few times a year would help.Those poor kids will be scarred for life because of her problems, and tax money funds this.

College students though, c'mon. It's a lot different in my opinion if you are responsible for others who can't get away from the situation, like children. Yes life is hard and drugs help avoid it, but it's not fair to put kids through hell too...

In Indiana, it's actually illegal to NOT report an abusive and/or neglectful parent if you have witnessed or have knowledge of the situation..
It just seems the more practical route...instead of broadly assuming all people on aid are going to abuse drugs and neglect their children..
I don't think I should have to pay for someone clean to take routine drug tests, and it doesn't seem fair to treat all people needing assistance like would-be criminals.
 
Somehow it always seemed better for the kids to keep the mother in the picture since it allowed grandma to basically raise them and take them to church. The extended family isn't all screwed up, just the mother.

Relying on reporting parties isn't the best method either, nor are home inspections, remember that poor Duggard girl? In the end a third party spoke up, but how many said nothing over the years while she suffered?
 
Somehow it always seemed better for the kids to keep the mother in the picture since it allowed grandma to basically raise them and take them to church. The extended family isn't all screwed up, just the mother.

Child Services usually places the children with an immediate relative if possible.
It's cheaper than paying a foster family or for them to stay in a foster home... and then the parent is still given supervised visits AND the chance to get clean, get their shit together, and regain custody..
At least that's how it is here.
 
Besides, child services visited them MULTIPLE times over the years without removing the kids. As I recall, a teacher reported them. Once when one of the girls had a broken leg, but that was from an actual accident. The mother was abused by the boyfriend, but the kids never were, to my knowledge. Black eyes and bruises, always wondered about it because she is also a very big girl...
 
Besides, child services visited them MULTIPLE times over the years without removing the kids. As I recall, a teacher reported them. Once when one of the girls had a broken leg, but that was from an actual accident. The mother was abused by the boyfriend, but the kids never were, to my knowledge. Black eyes and bruises, always wondered about it because she is also a very big girl...

Then they need to step it up!
 
Agreed. To get back on track, someone also made a good point that you must be drug tested for work, so why not for welfare? Both are choices or directly related to choices already made, so why is that unfair?
 
Agreed. To get back on track, someone also made a good point that you must be drug tested for work, so why not for welfare? Both are choices or directly related to choices already made, so why is that unfair?
Try reading the thread, thats been addressed a dozen times.
 
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Agreed. To get back on track, someone also made a good point that you must be drug tested for work, so why not for welfare? Both are choices or directly related to choices already made, so why is that unfair?

You shouldnt be tested at all. Did you read the thread? Why dont you tell us why it is fair, that would be a good change.
 
I read several pages. :) Some jobs definitely need drug testing. EMS, most health care jobs, machinery, etc.
Fair or not, is there going to be legislation reducing the reach of drug testing? Probably not, though the drugs tested for may not presently be fair, testing itself is a reality for many of us.
 
I read several pages. :) Some jobs definitely need drug testing. EMS, most health care jobs, machinery, etc.
Fair or not, is there going to be legislation reducing the reach of drug testing? Probably not, though the drugs tested for may not presently be fair, testing itself is a reality for many of us.

How about we just hire people who tell us they are not going to use drugs instead, and prove themselves worth trusting and hiring. Like decent people do. I am willing to chance EMS and healthcare workers doing drugs in order to not drug test.

Point is that it shouldnt be a reality. The fact that it is, is not proof that welfare recipients should have to be tested.
 
I think this is a very complicated issue. I am opposed to drug testing those on welfare but i do believe that there are many issues that arise from this debate that need to be addressed.

It is clear that there are many people, some working and some on welfare that use drugs. The kind of drug, quantity, quality, duration of use, frequency of use, where and how the drugs are aquired and how much money or other resources that are spent on them, reason for use, living situation, personality, health problems, mental health issues, environment, family and relationships, possible addiction, and effect on the person's life are all important factors and variables that govern the potential harm or effect on any individual's life. There is no such thing as a 'drug user'. This stereotype is unhelpful and does not help us address any issues. People use a variety of drugs, legal and illegal for a variety of different reasons. Someone that smokes a joint every night or once a week is not the same as someone that smokes 20 bongs a day. The effect of popping a xanax a couple of times a day may or not be that different to someone that uses cannabis a couple of times a day. Using cocaine occasionally at a party is not the same as using cocaine everyday...blah blah blah. The point is, or what most people are concerned about (i hope anyway), is reducing harm in people's lives, ensuring that children are cared for, and helping them live a fulfilling and meaningful life.

Some other people may simply only be concerned that their hard earned tax payer dollars are funding other people's welfare but thats a seperate issue. The fact is that we do have welfare and thats what it means to live in a civilised community and make sure all people have a chance at life. We all rely on it on some level. Welcome to living in a first world country.

Others may be annoyed that people on welfare using drugs is a waste of their tax payer money and is preventing people from finding/maintaining work. That is a very complicated issue and would require addressing the reason people are using drugs in the first place and the inherent reasons they do not wish to work or find it difficult to keep work. Drug abuse in normally a band aid for a deeper wound.

While i have no moral objection to drugs, i do recognise that they are illegal. It does seem strange and 'wrong' that government money would be used to purchase a product that was illegal and punishable (ironic on so many levels too, when you consider the governments dodgy involvment in the drug trade). I dont think its unfair to find ways to prevent people doing something that is illegal. This becomes more than just a matter of individual choice, it becomes an issue about prevent illegal activity. I think the best way to address this particular issue would be to campaign for the legalisation of drugs. The illegality of drugs creates more problems than is solves, for everyone concerned. The only people that benefit from the ilegality of drugs are those that run the black market and certain government organisations. It hurts everyone else, whether you use drugs or not. The risk that many people put themselves in aquiring drugs from illegal sources creates all sorts of problems and life drama.

People use drugs for a variety of reasons. When this use begins to hurt the life of the individual and his/her family, it becomes a seperate issue. Rather than using drug tests to address this issue, it would be more beneficial to address the root of the problem with services such as counselling, teaching basic life skills, assisting people with work training and other educational programs, teaching budgeting skills, organisational skills, family care, household skills-cooking, and encouraging community involvement. These solutions could actually work in addressing the inherent issues and would cost tax payers a lot less. They should not be mandatory, only easily available and maybe recommended to certain people depending on how long they have been on welfare and relevant factors (past history etc). There is a lot less stigma and harm in taking a budgeting class than there is in being labeled a drug user, having your privacy violated and having your means of income support removed, further increasing your feeling of being disfranchised. Seriously, this solution isnt even practical- someone tests positive and gets their payment cut of- how do they then feed their family? Somethings are more important than trying to prevent 'illegal activity'.

Drug testing those on welfare would be expensive, time consuming, increase anxiety and may not reduce drug use or solve any real problems. If anything, its will probably create more petty drug dealers and more criminal activity, as people find other means to fund their use of drugs. Most importantly, is s a blatant invasion of privacy. Just because someone is recieving a welfare payment does not make them society's bitch. Or a criminal. They are still a free, automous citizen and still have full rights. They are not lesser than people that have a job. We are all a part of a community. We all depend on each other and the government when we live in a society.

Looking after a child or a young family is the most important job in a community, in the world. Our children are our future. The care and education they recieve is fundamental to the success of our civillisation. Paying single mothers and families money to assist in this all important job makes perfect sense. We should all be more encouraging and supportive of these families. Makes more sense than paying people to kill other people's children and make weapons, certainly.
Giving people 'charity' or donations is NOT the same or as useful as enabling someone to have a regular income, regardless of how insubstantial that amount may be. Recieving money regularly enables people to have power over their own lifes, plan and organise for the future, take responisbility for their expenses/spending, and feel in control in their lives. This is very important and necessary if we want people to have the organisational skills, self confidence and ability to find and maintain a job. Not many people want to rely on charity. It makes many people feel shit and powerless. Its a negative thing when people in our society feel shit and powerless. It doesnt help anyone. Not having a job, losing your job, or being between jobs does not make anyone a second class citizen. It is a hard place to be and most people dont choose that lifestyle willingly. If you are fortunate enough to not understand this, then please try to empathise. Being broke is not the same as being poor. Its completely fucking different.

I firmly think that education is a much better solution than drug testing. Give people more information, more responsibility, more control, more autonomy, more power over their own life. Educate them about drugs, health, food, budgeting, emotional health, sexual health and organisation. Help them see that they have options and there are many possibilities. That they can live howver they want and dont need to be a slave to any person, substance or circumstance.