Yeah except I was not talking about unknowingly or accidentally eating meat or animal products.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?
- Thread starter Billy
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Yeah except I was not talking about unknowingly or accidentally eating meat or animal products.
@muir
What you say seems to imply that Nicea and other councils were about imposing conformity to a single belief. However, you overlook the possibility that such councils are upholding the belief that faith in the resurrection is based on a historical fact. In such a case, your theory that councils operate to control opinions/outlooks does not deal with the possibility that the belief of Catholic bishops at councils is that Christ truly and actually rose from the dead.
In other words, as a non-Christian you are imputing non-Christian motives to Christian bishops, which is not a tenable method for understanding history.
What you say seems to imply that Nicea and other councils were about imposing conformity to a single belief. However, you overlook the possibility that such councils are upholding the belief that faith in the resurrection is based on a historical fact. In such a case, your theory that councils operate to control opinions/outlooks does not deal with the possibility that the belief of Catholic bishops at councils is that Christ truly and actually rose from the dead.
In other words, as a non-Christian you are imputing non-Christian motives to Christian bishops, which is not a tenable method for understanding history.
You've not convinced me. I'm gonna need specifics, otherwise you're just bullshitting.
lol youre implying I was being deceitful. did I take the bait?
Do you understand what a parable is? It is a story to teach a lesson. Just because you understand how communism works doesnt make you a communist. You must understand the lesson Christianity teaches, not believe the literal occurances at face value.
Yes I agree the bible was all parables and fairy stories, we both agree about that, but since you're not a Christian I see no reason to continue this debate with you since, well you're not a Christian and the point of this thread which perhaps I didn't make clear enough was for Christians to answer that specific question.
Taize is a city in France. In this city there is a kind of grass roots ecumenical group, Catholic at its corp, but it quickly became far bigger than Catholic, attracting Christian pilgrims from all over the world, from all different denominations. They are best known for their unique style of music, which is multi-lingual, and repeats a single refrain in a meditative way to enter a state of mindful prayer, while a cantor intones different verses. This music has come to be used in various different denominations all around the world, from the extravagance of a papal mass to the simplicity of four singers a guitar and a flute meeting in the family room of someone's home.
I tried to find the exact song for you that I was remembering. The full quote of that verse is "For those who cannot believe and who give their life in the service of others, we pray to you O Lord. Kyrie Eleison (Lord have mercy)". I couldn't find a recording on You Tube, but here is a similar kyrie done at Taize, so that you get the idea of the style.
[video=youtube;HnJBh5BMV2E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnJBh5BMV2E[/video]
You know, it makes me realize how very fortunate I was that when I went through my crisis of faith, that another religious community was there to catch me when I fell. I listen to stuff like this, and it just makes my heart fly. You get religious people together, and they create beauty like this. What do atheists do when they get together? Not stuff like this. It's a flat existance, like life without color, or without music. If Judaism had not been there to catch me, I think I would have spent the rest of my life trying to get myself to believe again. Basically, while I may disagree with Christians about the resurrection, I'm actually kind of glad that they do believe, because that belief leads them to create such beauty.
Maybe not the righteousness part but certainly the belief of the story, that's for sure. Its kind of the reason for the religion. I have no problem with you poaching the good stuff out of the bible I readily admit there is plenty of good in it, and I have applied some of its lessons to my life as well, but for the logical aspect of it and how those behaviors are accepted by the people around me. But I am also not a Christian, Christian as a word and a name means a very specific thing.
I asked a priest a few questions once. He didn't have a very good outlook on things, he believed in fairy magic and pixies and stuff, I didn't understand how he could. I left the church emotionally around then, but I will admit that I did stick it out for confirmation, I didn't really go to CCD much but the church was happy to pass me as long as we paid the tuition costs. As a perk I got to skip about 80% of the classes. The best part of my confirmation was that I was in a coed line and my crush Shelly was there
the ceremony was quaint and rich with semi modern tradition and it made the folks happy so I was like fuck it. As another perk I get to be my nieces god father officially in the church, I always liked that you could still be a good catholic while being an atheist.
Where does the Bible say it is historical fact? Do you even have a reference to where the catholic church said it? It makes no sense for someone to suggest "believe this at face value and you get rewards lol," when they have the alternative to say "there is a lesson behind this story, understand it and your quality of life will increase." It's dogma until I am convinced.
I disagree with 'blind belief' being the reason for the religion. The morals and lessons are far more important than the 'historical recollection' of events.
[video=youtube;NqCccV6Y31s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqCccV6Y31s[/video]
Nope, nothing beautiful here.
It sure is a dull, drab existence I'm living.
Sorry, I know it's off topic... I'll stop.
Listen to anything the pope says he mentions it often. And the bible doesn't say its a historical fact, the bible is a part of history and people (christians) believe it to be a historical fact.
Hey I'm with you, I agree its illogical to believe something like that.
You are free to disagree, but ultimately it doesn't matter, you're not a Christian.
Just bought a new telescope, waiting for the next clear night to see Jupiter.
The point that he is making is that certain kinds of belief structures kind of interfere with appreciating natural beauty by needlessly complicating things by remaining steadfast to a long gone time period and moral code. At least that's what I think he was implying. the forces of religion would have suppressed the advances of technology and knowledge that disagreed with their doctrines, for example the churches treatment of Kepler or Galileo. I like that I was able to make this relevant to astronomy
I do not believe all Christians ignore natural beauty for the record. But sometimes religion does cast a shadow on something that requires a scientific explanation as opposed to a moral or spiritual one.
What does that matter? Because some claim to identify with a doctrine they havent taken the time to understand their opinion is more valid? That makes no sense.
What kind of things are you meaning? Can you be sure youre not needlessly complicating things, not them?The point that he is making is that certain kinds of belief structures kind of interfere with appreciating natural beauty by needlessly complicating things by remaining steadfast to a long gone time period and moral code. At least that's what I think he was implying. the forces of religion would have suppressed the advances of technology and knowledge that disagreed with their doctrines, for example the churches treatment of Kepler or Galileo. I like that I was able to make this relevant to astronomy
I was responding to the whole 'atheists have a flat existence without color or music' comment. I think they are capable of enjoying things they just look at them and say 'wow, God sure did a good job with that'... or turn it into something that could prove that God is real, or do something else kinda like that.
Religion to me was never really very important, maybe for a few moments when I was very very young. I became semi religious I guess when I was 4 or 5 because my brother Rick was born premature and nearly died and my mother also almost died and I spent a lot of time going from aunt to aunt and stuff while this was all going on. We almost lost them both I still have reoccurring nightmares about it.
Be that as it may, I think that that kernel of experience lead to the formation of how peculiar you all see me behave sometimes, where a lot of different quirks I personally demonstrate originated, because it was a snowball effect. They did survive, and things became ok after time but the experience I believe kind of aged my maturity a little bit I guess you could say, almost like a fatal dose of reality that poisoned off the will to be a kid, and instead made me very very aware of pain, death, loss, etc I became obsessed with it over the years in the forms of video games and horror movies always favoring the dark and evil stuff. To me God was just, nothing. He was something my parents told me about, and while I was religious for a while that young and that naive about things I became a really quick learner, and very unusually perceptive for a youngster.
As I began to learn that, the Tooth fairy was fake, that cartoons are fake, that Muppets are fake, that the Easter bunny was fake, each one falling like a domino one after another, Then some asshole neighborhood kids told me that there was no Santa Clause, I still remember how upset I felt about that, which eventually faded into jadedness and a mistrust of the things grown up people told me. I began to get quiet and introspective from these experiences, because I felt like it didn't make sense to allow myself to believe lies.
I guess for me religion was a natural progression of that, I began to get really interested in scientific things. I remember being into gemology, geology, collecting fossils and rocks, these were things school introduced me to that I followed up on my own. I had a real affinity for the stars and natural things, especially animals. I loved animals and walking in the woods alone, I caught snakes and turtles, moles, salamanders, always took care of them and then let them go safely. I was fascinated with the world around me. I felt more from learning about those things, and about what I am and who I am and how life works and trying to figure things out. I wasn't always educated and smart, but I was bright and perceptive. I felt more complete from devouring information and then using it in the fantasies in my head, and I did fantasize a lot, total day dreamer.
I recall late one night in bed, my last "dare" to god, I had one of those my pet monster things from a tag sale, I was quite young maybe 6, I dared god to bring him to life, like in all the parables they told us at reborn church (my grandmother also took myself and my brothers to a reborn christian church) There was one such story where the non-believers (who were evil by the way also known as "the wicked", "the wretched", "the evil") dared some noble Christian to set up a fire pit with wood and no oil and they would also and they would see which God would ignite it 1st, ohhh well you know those crafty Christians, he even said oh well I will also pour water on it, and my god will provide ignition. Sure enough God does it and the pagans god did nothing, his faith was rewarded. Well I will tell you that that stuck with me. God had that dudes fuckin back! When I put myself to the task I dared God to bring my stuffed animal to life so I would have a friend to talk to. And of course, it didn't happen. I wasn't convinced, I genuinely believed and wanted it, instead god blessed me with all sorts of other experiences. Amen.
I never had a use for it. I went to Church occasionally with the Catholics and the reborn, and I always felt it was just a huge drag, and as I approached my preteens they began to really push the morality, and it just didn't hold up for me, because what life was showing me was that god either didn't care or was cruel and hated me or as I ultimately accept for myself, God wasn't there.
I remember the 1st time I really began to allow that thought to slip through my consciousness. I was rather timid about it, I couldn't tell anybody, least of all my family. It was hard to ignore a lot of the stuff they wanted me to believe, I felt tremendous guilt for going against my loved ones. And I would not allow these thoughts to slip from my lips to my brothers because I didn't want them to feel the same way I did... while I was a truth seeker at heart I was also flawed as a hypocrite. A trend I have grown to despise in myself through the years and work hard to suppress, but I didn't feel like I had a right to ruin their peace of mind with all my... "questions" By the time my mother made me talk to the Priest the moral sermonizing had really put me off, I was disgusted with the history of the Catholic church especially in the dark ages. As I matured I became a HUGE fan of Western civilization and learning about the Greeks and the Romans and all the different eras and empires. I had nothing but contempt for a long time and I think by high school I was in this kind of dark gothic phase even though for me it was never a phase. Maybe the clothes but not the feelings.
I always seemed to embrace science over lore though. Except for those early memories and all that stuff I went through, most people say it builds faith for me it kind of punctured it and it quickly drained away. I was left with a conflicting feeling, if god was real, he was cruel and I would never worship that. It was easier to accept that god just didnt make sense.
WOW long winded or what?! hope this explains it, thanks for the question it felt good to say all that.
It matters if you want to be in their club house, you have to know the secret hand shake, and you don't. I am not needlessly complicating things, I have nothing between myself and my love for the way the scientific method works and as such I dont need reasons for why the universe exists the way it does, it just does and learning how it works is good enough for me, there is so much beauty in it.
Every Christian is so different... I would never judge a belief by one follower. I find Catholisism to be very contradictory to what i hold as valuable. I do believe my God quite literally rose from the dead. Way classier than lording His power and making a big production coming down from the cross. A sacrifice to end the need for any other sacrifice. We are not kmal's judge, and I love you all.
