Do we need higher education?
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I'm living proof of what happens if you stay in college 
Graduated in a recession and went back to a trade school. Graduated trade school a few months before the IT bubble burst and got outsourced. Got fed up working a crappy job I hated for crappy pay and decided to do what I enjoyed for almost a decade. Disagreed with every senior director I ever worked with in that field. Got fired and lost my career.
I kid you not when I now say I work a job where the person above me in the seniority ranks was a high school drop-out who makes more than I do. And the saddest part - no job I've ever worked has ever required a college degree. So if my views of college seem rather bleak, it's probably because I've never witnessed it have any benefit in my career/enjoyment path.
Graduated in a recession and went back to a trade school. Graduated trade school a few months before the IT bubble burst and got outsourced. Got fed up working a crappy job I hated for crappy pay and decided to do what I enjoyed for almost a decade. Disagreed with every senior director I ever worked with in that field. Got fired and lost my career.
I kid you not when I now say I work a job where the person above me in the seniority ranks was a high school drop-out who makes more than I do. And the saddest part - no job I've ever worked has ever required a college degree. So if my views of college seem rather bleak, it's probably because I've never witnessed it have any benefit in my career/enjoyment path.
Tin Man
"a respectable amount of screaming"
Cue the real education: life.
The man just spouted on of the most cheesy clichés out there. I would take life advice from the hobo who drinks his own urine before the person who wrote that.
The man just spouted on of the most cheesy clichés out there. I would take life advice from the hobo who drinks his own urine before the person who wrote that.
i think shes got a point. its not worthwhile doing it if you cant engage or youre just there for some sort of reason that is extraneous to your legitimate direction in life, if you havent found your direction yet. it makes sense that a lot of people are there just because of social pressure. when i graduated from highschool i enrolled in psychology for reasons that had nothing at all to do with my own genuine inclinations. just like her i went away and did other things before i finally chose a discipline i could commit to in a meaningful way.
i do think university is really great though, when you can engage in it properly for some meaningful reason. when i really committed to my undergraduate work, it was difficult, but i knew i was getting a lot out of it. a couple of years later i pretty much remember it as the best time of my life. what im doing now is more of a trade qualification really because i cant make money out of my undergrad work, which was literature. but that definitely doesnt mean it was worthless to me, there are other things that are important apart from the cash. i learned so many fundamental skills, as basic as how to follow direction, how to listen to other opinions, and i became so much more literate its ridiculous. its almost like i couldnt think before, but it taught me to think. at times i could feel my mind opening up, like as if a door were opening onto a night sky and i had never seen a night sky before. it really really helped me, it taught me that i can be competent in things that i want to do, and how to go about doing things i wanted to do. it was awesome.... would love to go back and do more postgraduate work in literature, it is such a fascinating art form to study, and so rich in knowledge, and so entwined with other critical and theoretical apparatus... <3
i do think university is really great though, when you can engage in it properly for some meaningful reason. when i really committed to my undergraduate work, it was difficult, but i knew i was getting a lot out of it. a couple of years later i pretty much remember it as the best time of my life. what im doing now is more of a trade qualification really because i cant make money out of my undergrad work, which was literature. but that definitely doesnt mean it was worthless to me, there are other things that are important apart from the cash. i learned so many fundamental skills, as basic as how to follow direction, how to listen to other opinions, and i became so much more literate its ridiculous. its almost like i couldnt think before, but it taught me to think. at times i could feel my mind opening up, like as if a door were opening onto a night sky and i had never seen a night sky before. it really really helped me, it taught me that i can be competent in things that i want to do, and how to go about doing things i wanted to do. it was awesome.... would love to go back and do more postgraduate work in literature, it is such a fascinating art form to study, and so rich in knowledge, and so entwined with other critical and theoretical apparatus... <3
It's interesting, because I see it on two sides.
I think first year students are often too young to really know 'what they want in life' and haven't really had a lot of life experience. Looking back to when I was that age, I was still a child! So my first year or two of university really gave me a safe place to grow, and experience a bit more of life and responsibility. I wasn't told I had to go (although, maybe I was, I just always assumed that's what I would do!), so I was really excited for the experience, and LOVED it! I think on one hand, continuing education is a great opportunity to ease into adulthood for a lot of student.
However, as an educator it gets really overwhelming and a bit disheartening to see so many students not enjoy or really take advantage of the opportunity. There's even graduate students who seem to only be here because they have to- which is kind of sad. I've been lucky that I was always told that I could pursue anything I wanted too (perhaps I would have gotten different encouragement from my mom if I wanted to be a rockstar or some other profession that has rather limited prospects!), so I feel bad for students who feel pressured to be here- it must be very exhausting. I agree with the writer that you more out of your education if you want to be there, which is why it seems so many students waste those years.
They need to have a 'training wheels' stage between highschool and university.
I think first year students are often too young to really know 'what they want in life' and haven't really had a lot of life experience. Looking back to when I was that age, I was still a child! So my first year or two of university really gave me a safe place to grow, and experience a bit more of life and responsibility. I wasn't told I had to go (although, maybe I was, I just always assumed that's what I would do!), so I was really excited for the experience, and LOVED it! I think on one hand, continuing education is a great opportunity to ease into adulthood for a lot of student.
However, as an educator it gets really overwhelming and a bit disheartening to see so many students not enjoy or really take advantage of the opportunity. There's even graduate students who seem to only be here because they have to- which is kind of sad. I've been lucky that I was always told that I could pursue anything I wanted too (perhaps I would have gotten different encouragement from my mom if I wanted to be a rockstar or some other profession that has rather limited prospects!), so I feel bad for students who feel pressured to be here- it must be very exhausting. I agree with the writer that you more out of your education if you want to be there, which is why it seems so many students waste those years.
They need to have a 'training wheels' stage between highschool and university.
i have nothing too informed to add to the discussion, only a few opinions & thoughts, which for the sake of brevity will be bulleted:
I may add more as i think of it.
- In many fields, degrees mean little; they are an HR filter, but, as i heard once put "...more of a measure of obedience rather than knowledge [aptitude, skill, etc.]"
- Education is not confined to school, regardless of the field. Aside from the cliche that life is a teacher, in many fields you learn the majority of what you need on the job
- Many workplaces are happy to provide training & certifications that come outside of secondary/higher education. It's still studying, but not in the confines of the classroom/school system
- All this isn't to say degree's aren't worth it - in many fields - teaching, engineering, medical etc. they are often needed and/or a must.
- I'm still deciding whether mine is/was/will be worth it - it's useful, but not sure about return on investment - only the future will telll.
I may add more as i think of it.
Yeah. I some times would have liked to go for a degree. Might have been more organized, I dunno. Could be nice to have I guess. I don't regret not doing it though.
When I had my first job though it was basically "You taught yourself to do all this? You're hired."
Grade inflation is part of the problem. Teachers have an incentive to pass kids because it makes them look like better teachers. I had classes in college where the teacher sucked and nobody learned jack shit. Still we all passed because the class was curved and the teacher didn't want people to know the average grade in her class was 30% range.
I think one year of resting after high school is good for the mind. My bro did that and I feel he is much more appreciative of the opportunity at hand than he would have been if he just jumped straight into it. It gave him a year to work full time and watch his friends all get educated. Gave him a year to smoke weed and do nothing and know what it feels like to be a loser that way he knows he doesn't want to be one. hehe.
I wonder if this is the reason that some people seem to have a PhD that they must have gotten as a prize out of a wet Cracker Jack box.
This isn't really a teacher incentive. At least in Canada, teachers aren't given money when students make better marks. This is largely a departmental/institutional issue- a lot of times professors/instructors are told to curve marks, and if they don't, they might lose their teaching position. A lot of times professors are pushed to waterdown the content- and they resent it.
Higher education is a business now that cares very little about the content and values they teach their students - BUT, this doesn't mean that teachers feel this way...what it means is that teachers who are passionate about education and students are often marginalized and pushed out because they are unable to appropriately teach-but that's a whole other issue.
I do agree that there should be a 'working' year between highschool and university. It would be great if there was a system in place where internships were created in fields of potential interest.
I think there's experiences and values that students need to have to really be prepared for 'life'...it's unfortunate that higher education is most often unable to provide that - which seems counter intuitive to their goal.
Mmm... I don't think you really need a college education unless you have a job where the well-being of others lies in your hands: Teacher, Doctor, Lawyer, Therapist etc. and for the exception of the Doctor you really just need that piece of paper to hang up in your office cause the only thing you can't learn to do, or rather is frowned upon, is cutting people up in the real world lol... Other than that, most jobs need years of experience along with the education, if they specifically ask for educated employees. And a lot of times that experience outweighs miles of education. It has been said that people with a college education get paid more, but I don't see that as a factor between an experienced employee that gets the company money vs an educated employee that is mediocre. Besides that there's not much you could learn in school that can't learn in life, or even the internet with their free education services. From there you just educate yourself.
I think, in America, schools pre-college have just turned into glorified day cares. You ask a high school-er what they've learned and they've learned how to sleep with their head up looking alert. You ask a fifth grader what they've learned and they know more than most, even if a lot of it isn't accurate anymore. (The high school-er to fifth grader comparison is that of being young and wanting to absorb everything vs being older, possibly bored in a lot of cases, and not being pushed to learn.) In America it's really just how our schools are, how they've decided to make them. You give everyone, rich, poor, middle class, a summer long break -along with 5-10 other breaks- you're letting them deiced if they want to un-memorize everything they've learned by vegging out in front of the TV or if they want to pay for summer activities that may or may not challenge them. More often than not people can't afford any such activity during their summer vacation, or ever for that matter.
Now is it better to educate everyone freely and constantly or make them depend on educating themselves else they're close to homeless, or homeless even? I don't know, but I'd say Americans are in a pretty bad place and will continue to be until people start smartening up along with doing something about it. The biggest thing would be doing something about it.
I think, in America, schools pre-college have just turned into glorified day cares. You ask a high school-er what they've learned and they've learned how to sleep with their head up looking alert. You ask a fifth grader what they've learned and they know more than most, even if a lot of it isn't accurate anymore. (The high school-er to fifth grader comparison is that of being young and wanting to absorb everything vs being older, possibly bored in a lot of cases, and not being pushed to learn.) In America it's really just how our schools are, how they've decided to make them. You give everyone, rich, poor, middle class, a summer long break -along with 5-10 other breaks- you're letting them deiced if they want to un-memorize everything they've learned by vegging out in front of the TV or if they want to pay for summer activities that may or may not challenge them. More often than not people can't afford any such activity during their summer vacation, or ever for that matter.
Now is it better to educate everyone freely and constantly or make them depend on educating themselves else they're close to homeless, or homeless even? I don't know, but I'd say Americans are in a pretty bad place and will continue to be until people start smartening up along with doing something about it. The biggest thing would be doing something about it.
If I did not get a graduate education, I would not have a career which allows me to make use of my natural preferences, skills or talents, so saying it isn't necessary is too absolutist. Making universal statements about higher education as if it's either all bad or all good is not helpful. Yes, getting a college education may not be for everyone but claiming it's not useful or necessary at all is narrow and missing the point. Just because one person doesn't need it, doesn't mean others won't. Many of the people who learn on the job often only learn what the job permits them to learn. They don't often learn anything outside of what their specific job or life experiences teach them. For many, experience is a comfort zone. Of course, you don't need a degree to be smart or capable or successful. However, higher education can open your perspective and understanding in ways everyday experience sometimes can't. Often, people think experience is everything, yet many of the people who say life experience has taught them everything they know are some of the most closed people I've ever met. They only listen when what is stated reflects their own feelings or experiences. They are unable to appreciate much outside of this. They think they know everything because of their "life experiences" but often unwilling to consider other experiences or perspectives. Higher education has taught me not to assume but to be more open and understanding and not be limited by experience. Yes, you may not need higher education to learn this but claiming it's unnecessary or irrelevant shows a quite narrow and limited view. Higher education wasn't originally about simply getting a job. It was about enlightenment, not being limited by your everyday circumstances but learning how to see possibilities outside of our worldly experiences. This was usually because it was the experience of not being able to rise above circumstances that made people feel limited or alienated. That's why we had the "knowledge is power" mantra for a long time. It was closer to the original purpose of higher education especially in the humanities. It's ineffective to throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because one person may not find it useful doesn't mean it won't be useful for someone else. Clearly, changes need to be made to the current higher education system. It's not perfect. However, education begins at home and in our social experiences, not meant to be restricted to the four walls of a classroom.
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10000% agree.
So many people go into higher education with the mentality of: "I'm going to get the degree and then get the job"
The degree is only one part of it, it's the softer skills that are so important and was really the goal of education - instilling the desire to learn, enabling a student to think critically, teaching them to be ethical and compassionate community leaders....these are all general skills that students should learn- regardless of their disciplinary content...but you don't learn them if you're not there to get an education, rather than a degree.
Being a teacher, I didn't really have a choice. That being said, after realizing how long I'll be in debt and seeing all of my unemployed friends and peers in the field, it's hard to whole-hardheartedly advocate higher education to my students on a day-to-day basis. I think it's important and obviously place great value on it myself, but it's not for everyone, and may people who aren't "highly educated" in the traditional sense are incredibly intelligent and educated in ways I could never imagine. Different strokes for different folks. What we definitely need is to rethink our approach to higher education. It shouldn't be a dividing issue between classes. It should be free and freely accessed by all who desire it.
Sidenote/soapbox- I believe that my biggest role in the classroom isn't to make sure my students know their verbs and their nouns, but that they're individuals who can think for themselves and who can exist and interact in an ethical and fair way. If they can remember my interpretation of Huck Finn, all the better.
Sidenote/soapbox- I believe that my biggest role in the classroom isn't to make sure my students know their verbs and their nouns, but that they're individuals who can think for themselves and who can exist and interact in an ethical and fair way. If they can remember my interpretation of Huck Finn, all the better.
I think this is so true. The biggest misconception of higher education is: it's not for everyone. I think this is where [MENTION=1355]MindYourHead[/MENTION] makes such a great point- more trades and craftman degrees are needed. So many 'trades' have been pushed into 'higher education' that don't need to be. We need to place more value and emphasis on apprentice and trade programs that integrate handson experience with their degrees.
As someone who has been in higher education for over a decade, I can say that if I could do it over, I might not have picked university....I think I would have picked a community college where I could get a 2-year diploma and work for a few years. Then go back for more education if I wanted it.
An undergrad really doesn't get you more than a HSD now. You're looking at going into a graduate degree to get a job through higher education.
I been to university three times, been to technical college once, studied two years at tech, two years at uni, one year at another uni, two years at a different campus of the first uni.
Working as a professional in my choosen field, have a diploma, a degree and a masters, it is the diploma which was the gateway qualification for my current trade.
I never regretted any of the times I was at uni, in fact would love to go and study again, if I could have my own design for life it'd be one long series of uni training episodes interspaced with the different periods of work necessary to finance it all and I would have done this if I'd had a plan when I was much younger, ie at school, but I didnt.
I was the first to study at uni from my family, all the others did after me, although there was no expectation that any of would or could prior to my enrolling and I only enrolled because it was a module on my studies at tech to do so, this was also before the successive government here wound up all the financial assistance to students. There was a time here when if you were a student you got a subsistence grant, got your tuition paid, got housing benefit, got unemployment benefit too, if you applied for it, and I figure you could have arranged student loans, although they did not exist prior to the abolishing of all those benefits to students. I dont know why people didnt just remain students their whole lives at that time with those conditions but there was a huge psychological barrier to university with most people at the time, it is still there in most people I meet now.
It could be because I've got such qualifications, and know I could get more, that qualifications, titles and studies dont impress me at all, not in the least. I put much greater store in character and obvious skills. I've known people who were intellectually bright, or at least academically gifted, who are lousy communicators, some of them dont know it, some of them dont care and then besides that there are those who compound the matter with really bad social aptitudes too. I'm not talking about people being jerks or the whole "if they knew good they would do good" idea, not simply in any case, but individuals who fail to communicate key points, either in writing, verbally, e-mails, messages or whatever means open to them, and who wonder then why others did not know what they did or made decisions differently from what they would have expected, people can not read your mind. This lack of what is paradoxically called common sensical is something I've known people to succeed in spite of in academia or studies, so they dont impress me and dont say a lot.
Working as a professional in my choosen field, have a diploma, a degree and a masters, it is the diploma which was the gateway qualification for my current trade.
I never regretted any of the times I was at uni, in fact would love to go and study again, if I could have my own design for life it'd be one long series of uni training episodes interspaced with the different periods of work necessary to finance it all and I would have done this if I'd had a plan when I was much younger, ie at school, but I didnt.
I was the first to study at uni from my family, all the others did after me, although there was no expectation that any of would or could prior to my enrolling and I only enrolled because it was a module on my studies at tech to do so, this was also before the successive government here wound up all the financial assistance to students. There was a time here when if you were a student you got a subsistence grant, got your tuition paid, got housing benefit, got unemployment benefit too, if you applied for it, and I figure you could have arranged student loans, although they did not exist prior to the abolishing of all those benefits to students. I dont know why people didnt just remain students their whole lives at that time with those conditions but there was a huge psychological barrier to university with most people at the time, it is still there in most people I meet now.
It could be because I've got such qualifications, and know I could get more, that qualifications, titles and studies dont impress me at all, not in the least. I put much greater store in character and obvious skills. I've known people who were intellectually bright, or at least academically gifted, who are lousy communicators, some of them dont know it, some of them dont care and then besides that there are those who compound the matter with really bad social aptitudes too. I'm not talking about people being jerks or the whole "if they knew good they would do good" idea, not simply in any case, but individuals who fail to communicate key points, either in writing, verbally, e-mails, messages or whatever means open to them, and who wonder then why others did not know what they did or made decisions differently from what they would have expected, people can not read your mind. This lack of what is paradoxically called common sensical is something I've known people to succeed in spite of in academia or studies, so they dont impress me and dont say a lot.