Dealing with workplace gossip -- as a manager?

[Trifoilum]

Why do you think its happening?

From -whose- perspective?

Its about boundaries and consequences for those who cross them.

1. You need to articulate clear, easily assessable boundaries of workplace conversation - so that any transgressions can be clearly and unambiguously identified.
2. You need to flood the workplace periodically (once a year) with both visual and personal reminders of the boundaries and the consequence of crossing those boundaries.
3. You need to be able to punish transgressors. The punishment cannot be anything, but what every single employee will perceive as truly undesirable. Some people don't mind being criticised, reviewed, etc. In civilian employment the only effective punishments are threats to income, or job security. (ie. suspension of employment, pending review; or termination).
4. If gossip is seriously impeding the operations, you must fire at least one person, so that the other workers understand how serious productivity is; and how the crossing of boundaries will not be tolerated.

This sounds too overkill for me...or at least, with the way my store and the work culture is at the moment.
Creating hard boundaries such as those, while effective, will be instantaneously seen as a violent reaction towards something that, in their perspective, may have been petty. If anything, I will end up alienating the gossipers instead (and they will turn their attention towards the 'protected' ones).

I don't think a manager needs to get to the bottom of employee personal problems.

A manager is there to manage the work, not to manage people's personal lives. That is up to each employee. If an employee cannot work as a professional, that's something he/she needs to work on - perhaps with professional help. But unless you are running a training college, or some sort of therapy place - it would seem to be a waste of resources to expand your business to include remedial therapy.

Some parts of me would agree with you and the other would call this too detached.
And for the latter argument, I'm considering the circumstances and the culture. I personally think I would appear to be be all cold and calculating and ruthless in this type of workplace -- a considerably small shop. The size doesn't really permit a .....detached gap between the upper management and the workers. All the detachments I'm building feels like mostly personal,

But reasons reasons reasons.

(...the fact that the workers lives in my house probably also plays some part)

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Random thoughts before responding:

I feel like I've been creating some distance with my worker's humanity in this matter; the fact that they feel, do, experience things. That they have their own experience, consideration, knowledge, beliefs; some that may be (drastically) different from my own.
Is this a trap of the managements (or specifically, HRD?)? Thinking of the workers as cogs to be fixed for the sake of the machine, not humans?

It does feel safer, less confusing; smoother; but my heart screams for cruelty and carelessness.

Human cogs in a workplace machine.

I guess that you have to see the machine as making it possible for people to live better lives. Not just employees, but people in general. I mean, what kind of life would you have to live if society was less developed?

In order for society to exist as we have it in the West, it is necessary that some difficulties are endured, for the sake of benefits that outweigh them. Well oiled workplaces (impersonal machines) are part of Western life - whether this is an acceptable situation is a different, more personal, philosophical matter.

Nevertheless, if you need to run a workplace that requires some restraint of personal expression - you might as well get to it. If this is at odds with your convictions, then the two things will eventually come to a head in your own position within the machine.

 

[muir]

Random thoughts before responding:

I feel like I've been creating some distance with my worker's humanity in this matter; the fact that they feel, do, experience things. That they have their own experience, consideration, knowledge, beliefs; some that may be (drastically) different from my own.
Is this a trap of the managements (or specifically, HRD?)? Thinking of the workers as cogs to be fixed for the sake of the machine, not humans?

It does feel safer, less confusing; smoother; but my heart screams for cruelty and carelessness.

This is sounding like more of a complete picture

You ARE dealing with humans not robots. People management is always half the battle of any group activity

There are different leadership styles. There is leading by example and from the front, there is the hands off lassaiz-faire approach, there is the using fear to try and coerce people approach etc

I have see a company fracture and fall apart because the employer tried to use fear to control his workforce. This approach only succeeeds in creating a really shitty work environment

At the same time you probably don't want too become to friendly either as this brings its own complications, so its a case of keeping a respectful distance but yet close enough for there to be some warmth or at least civility (and to stay in touch with whats happening at the coal face)

I'd like to say more, but i'm out of time for today

I think the best approach whatever you do is to be respectful, be honest, be open, talk things through with people in a relaxed, non conspiratorial way. Do not pit anyone against anyone else and don't treat anyone preferrentially

Most people are looking for reassurance

and that guy who ruined his company...he thought he had a well oiled machine, right before it fell apart

 

[Apone]

I don't think a manager needs to get to the bottom of employee personal problems.

A manager is there to manage the work, not to manage people's personal lives. That is up to each employee. If an employee cannot work as a professional, that's something he/she needs to work on - perhaps with professional help. But unless you are running a training college, or some sort of therapy place - it would seem to be a waste of resources to expand your business to include remedial therapy.

There is a lot to be said for being a hard case-- it can be pretty efficient and effective, and people are more likely to test your boundaries and relax a little too much if you're super kind right off the bat. It's not exactly cruel to tell people what the rules are, and to let them know that breaking those rules will mean consequences… and I think it is important to emphasize how important you think a smoothly-running workplace is.

You don't have to be cruel or careless about it-- you can give them warnings and let them know if they're close to being fired/penalized. You shouldn't have to follow through unless they're being completely unreasonable. If they know where they stand and they've been repeatedly warned and still insist on stirring up shit, then you can tell them AND yourself that you did everything you could to try to prevent them from being fired, but you've run out of options.

I do think you need to try a softer approach first, however.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

There is a lot to be said for this-- keeping your distance and being a hard case can be pretty efficient and effective, and people are more likely to test your boundaries and relax a little too much if you're super kind right off the bat. It's not exactly cruel to tell people what the rules are, and to let them know that breaking those rules will mean consequences… and I think it is important to emphasize how important you think a smoothly-running workplace is.

You don't have to be cruel or careless about it-- it's not about you personally, it's about what's best for the business.

Exactly.

This is a thread about a workplace problem. The matter of encouraging and actually rewarding excellence/performance is a related matter.

The machine analogy works in terms of expectations, but the family analogy works better in terms of relationships.

Parents who do not set limits and enforce them don't help their children reach their full potential. Nor do severe parents. Encouragement and reward is always important. But unlike a family, the manager cannot, like a parent, encourage his/her staff to explore/develop whatever skills/attitudes/etc. they will eventually follow in later life. A manager has one goal for the workplace family: it must survive and do so successfully.

 

[this is only temporary]

Hi Trifolium!
Haven't read through your entire thread yet, but my first thought is you really do need to address this issue. It is ridiculously childish, but it can be very destructive. I'd be inclined to say something to the entire group along the lines of "We do not like or encourage gossip or games, here in this department, if anyone has an issue we encourage open and honest communication." and then somehow show or model just what you mean by open and honest communication. Don't just do it once, keep on doing it repeatedly, it will eventually sink in.

I've been in workplaces that were practically fueled by gossip and trust me, they were not productive or enjoyable, and there was little to no loyalty, and management really needs to address this issue. Sorry I don't have any really helpful ways of doing it. Sometimes there is one specific person who is starting it and you have to focus on that individual. Best of luck, difficult situation you are in there.

P.S. By gossip, I am assuming you mean things like private information that has nothing at all to do with workplace performance, like the state of people's relationships and marriages, who likes whom, what they are wearing, parties they attended, things like that...

P.P.S. Or really nasty shit like making up lies about things that never happened to try to hurt someone's reputation.

P.P.P.S. And by the way, it is not cruel to try to fix a situation that could easliy leave people in tears or seriously demoralized, or worse, unfairly hurt their reputation. Gossip can be harmless but it can also be a form of bullying. It would be great to help people learn a better way of dealing with each other and that would extend beyonod the workplace. Not sure how you do that, though.

 

[88chaz88]

Have some people removed from the company photos. Stalin style.

 

[Trifoilum]

*nods*
I'm restraining on quoting, because I think the direction [MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION] is heading is clashing with my convictions. Quoting will only make me start dissecting. No offense to Flavus and I do appreciate your input; I'm...mostly trying to not let my gut feeling run my mind here.

I can see what you're talking about; that certain prudence in keeping your distance in the workplace. It was as [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] said as well; too strong and it causes fear, too weak and it doesn't do. On an related philosophical tangent I also wonder, is being engaged within your workplace something impossible, merely hard, or merely unwise?

I do know in this case both engagement and detachment are both tactical moves.

Musing before continuing.
I do think the original terrain-- um, work culture, leads to this.
What [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] said; I did see it as well;

people are more likely to test your boundaries and relax a little too much if you're super kind right off the bat.

It's not something -bad- or -good-, but it's something ignorant and ultimately lenient for people working here. That includes me myself.
In a sense the boundaries have been tested, passed, and ignored numerous times. And there was no direct resistance; the changes were left alone (as stated, I found it unsurprising) That goes for the hard, 'stated' rules and the soft, 'unspoken' rules. In this particular terrain, the boundary is something simple, indeed; 'efficiency'.

In MBTI terms, the boundaries here are Ti. The games played are Fe. People playing these games (and me) are Fe users.
The games slipped right underneath the raised boundaries and left alone...As long as the machine works.
And so far, the machine works.

I think I'm actually working against the machine here, by engaging them.
The soft rules so far, the terrain, seems to be to ignore until the visible work degradation has been seen, then applying discipline.

Workplace-wise, I think the hypothesized silver bullet is for me to be a good role model and set examples by working hard (argument being; lazying around > lack of work > more time on chitchat > gossiping).
I sincerely doubt the potency. Not when the Fe players know the patterns...
That's a bit like fixing a disease by willing it to go away.

I'm confused. *laughs*

 

[Trifoilum]

Hi Trifolium!
Haven't read through your entire thread yet, but my first thought is you really do need to address this issue. It is ridiculously childish, but it can be very destructive. I'd be inclined to say something to the entire group along the lines of "We do not like or encourage gossip or games, here in this department, if anyone has an issue we encourage open and honest communication." and then somehow show or model just what you mean by open and honest communication. Don't just do it once, keep on doing it repeatedly, it will eventually sink in.

So the example lies in communicating, not in working? As said above, the information I received from the upper management tells me basically to set an example in working. Hmmm....
From something I'd read it says that gossip exists due of a vacuum of information.
....
...what information do I have ? O_O; what information am I keeping it secret?
It's quite confusing because what I'm covering are mostly responses.

I've been in workplaces that were practically fueled by gossip and trust me, they were not productive or enjoyable, and there was little to no loyalty, and management really needs to address this issue. Sorry I don't have any really helpful ways of doing it. Sometimes there is one specific person who is starting it and you have to focus on that individual. Best of luck, difficult situation you are in there.

That's alright.

Yes, I think it's not that hard to identify the individual; an ENFJ. Very competent, quite professional work-wise, but social-wise....

What I don't know is exactly how (working gossip would be equally destructive but work differently than daily life gossip) and why. I know several things that may or may not be the reasoning, but I also cannot abuse it because that reasoning is out of my jurisdiction as a workplace owner.

P.S. By gossip, I am assuming you mean things like private information that has nothing at all to do with workplace performance, like the state of people's relationships and marriages, who likes whom, what they are wearing, parties they attended, things like that...

P.P.S. Or really nasty shit like making up lies about things that never happened to try to hurt someone's reputation.

P.P.P.S. And by the way, it is not cruel to try to fix a situation that could easliy leave people in tears or seriously demoralized, or worse, unfairly hurt their reputation. Gossip can be harmless but it can also be a form of bullying. It would be great to help people learn a better way of dealing with each other and that would extend beyonod the workplace. Not sure how you do that, though.

Oh, yes, I believe it's those type of gossip aside from the preference issue.

Yes, I'm also confused ;__;

Have some people removed from the company photos. Stalin style.

I don't have any company photos.

 

[Trifoilum]

From my understanding, this is going to be a long issue?

 

[this is only temporary]

So the example lies in communicating, not in working?

What I think helps is showing by example. i.e. steadfastly refusing to trash-talk someone behind their back. Also quietly sticking up for them if you hear it happening, (Ex. Oh, you think so-and-so was showing too much cleavage? Well, she's lucky she's got it, right? She did a great job on that last project she oversaw too. laugh...) That takes care of the stupid petty stuff.

For the more serious stuff, what helps (I think) encouraging people if they really have a problem with a person to tell that person to their face. Sometimes having outside experts or communication training classes helps with this part. The idea being, if people don't know any other way to act or communicate, they are just going to keep on communicating the only way they know how.

And tell them flat-out gossip & games can be hurtful and it is not a good way to communicate, and try to encourage better ways.

Perhaps even start with yourself? Maybe say "I understand there have been some problems and I want you all to know if there are any problems I'm causing I'd rather you tell me personally so I can change. If it is not told to me personally, I will have no way of changing it."

 

[the]

Hmm.....

As a clarification, I work in a (family, hence the de jure) retail shop; I seem to think my current job description is best described as manager rather than owner, whence the title.

Due to the smaller size, so far we never have any meetings (They...or me...so far don't ever have one. >_<, gyah). Nor do the workplace have any message boards. I don't see the importance up until now, but now that I think about it..
And sadly, We don't give references here in my country or have any employee record here; at least for the workers (considered blue-collar workers). I don't know if there will be any promotions either... although there probably will be salary rises (I'm not in the charge of this), so I can use that as a stake, but.

Personally, what my mind is screaming is augh changes changes changes, these are all changes in 'hard Fe' and to do that is augh changes changes changes

Second thing is that yes, in front of me, they were all doing fine. With only a total of around five workers (at least those who are involved in this), I think I cannot talk about them about this without implying someone had told me about this matter..which may lead to further alienation for my workers. This may also include any noticeable changes in my approach, meaning that if I suddenly ask a lot of things, it may have raised suspicion. But I may have a bias against doing it, see above.

I can see how the mess started, really; but at this point I doubt that meant anything other than lessons.

And talking to the upper management leads to me being scolded for not setting a good example. >_> <_<

How upper management are you?


also what are they gossiping about? The other workers or work issues (like layoffs)?

 

[Trifoilum]

What I think helps is showing by example. i.e. steadfastly refusing to trash-talk someone behind their back. Also quietly sticking up for them if you hear it happening, (Ex. Oh, you think so-and-so was showing too much cleavage? Well, she's lucky she's got it, right? She did a great job on that last project she oversaw too. laugh...) That takes care of the stupid petty stuff.

I'm out of the loop. I doubt entering the loop now is wise nor good too. Hmm.

For the more serious stuff, what helps (I think) encouraging people if they really have a problem with a person to tell that person to their face. Sometimes having outside experts or communication training classes helps with this part. The idea being, if people don't know any other way to act or communicate, they are just going to keep on communicating the only way they know how.

And tell them flat-out gossip & games can be hurtful and it is not a good way to communicate, and try to encourage better ways.

So I essentially flat out telling them, "I know you've been gossiping, and I don't approve." ?

Hmm, that relies on status and information. Again, I should protect the whistleblower. *ponders*

Perhaps even start with yourself? Maybe say "I understand there have been some problems and I want you all to know if there are any problems I'm causing I'd rather you tell me personally so I can change. If it is not told to me personally, I will have no way of changing it."

Ah yeah, there's that as well.

Pondering further;
I think there would be two levels of issues here, at least?
One is workplace issue. The preference issue is put here.

Two is less workplace, more...personal. The whistleblower's guilt and burden seeing their changes are here.
The latter involves more personal approach, longer, and more thorough.
The former involves something quicker, but on a level; more short-term.

And I'm still confused about the how. Part of it was lack of knowledge; or rather real life knowledge. Part of it was lack of courage.


@UBERROGO : In my own assessment, middle. High enough to be able to order and supervise, not high enough to influence the decisions from the top.

And, other workers.

 

[Trifoilum]

http://www.management-issues.com/2007/8/6/opinion/dealing-with-workplace-gossip.asp >> quite good, or at least receivable by me. >_>

 

[Trifoilum]

Talked with my sister;

She recognized part of the social influences, but still sticks with her decision and idea. I also suggested the alternating schedule, and it got rejected swiftly.
Essentially, that for her the proposed solution is for us siblings-- or rather, me and my brother, to 'be an example and bring more customers, and watch them downstairs'; using 'setting examples and more things to do will stop the influence' as an argument.

One of the people involved also wants to quit, according to her. When I asked my sister why, she responded with "well, lack of work will bore them. You ought to make the store busier so that they'll have something to do."

Why do I feel this issue is getting murkier?

 

[Vict]

I believe I said something like, "We're fucking adults. Cut the bullshit and focus on your work."

 

[barbad0s]

Talked with my sister;

She recognized part of the social influences, but still sticks with her decision and idea. I also suggested the alternating schedule, and it got rejected swiftly.
Essentially, that for her the proposed solution is for us siblings-- or rather, me and my brother, to 'be an example and bring more customers, and watch them downstairs'; using 'setting examples and more things to do will stop the influence' as an argument.

One of the people involved also wants to quit, according to her. When I asked my sister why, she responded with "well, lack of work will bore them. You ought to make the store busier so that they'll have something to do."

Why do I feel this issue is getting murkier?

oh no

 

[Trifoilum]

I believe I said something like, "We're fucking adults. Cut the bullshit and focus on your work."

And when there are no work?

That was part of my sister's argument; because there are not a lot of work, they have a lot of free time. Because they have a lot of free time, time are spent gossiping instead.

Further pondering:
I think there was an implicit assumption in that logic; it assumes the workers love to work and/or given more work rather than less.
My Fe radar does not compute.
Boredom hurts, I agree. The gossiping may be a result of too much of a free time, it's plausible.
How about the medicine? Does giving more work would fix an already tainted morale? Is this a bandage or a surgery?

I feel like this is what's considered by [MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION] as creating boundaries.
It may help shutting them up, if carefully monitored, it might be possible to control their behaviors.
But won't that only lead to further bottling up of resentment? Would not the monitoring only make the boredom worse by adding it with a sense of being monitored?
In the end, what will it lead to?
[MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION] : I expected it.

 

[Vict]

It's a different problem when there isn't enough work and people are being paid to lounge around.

 

[muir]

Have some people removed from the company photos. Stalin style.

Notice how stalin has his hand hidden in his top. This is symbolic to show people that he is a member of hidden hand secret societies

You can see many historical figures doing this. A further sign can be how they are standing which can show to what degree they are initiated into freemasonry

Interesting perhaps but probably not going to help Trifoilum's situation much.....