Counseling Ethics versus Religous Beliefs | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Counseling Ethics versus Religous Beliefs

Not being a part of that side of politics has its perks, then. At least we haven't come to cameras everywhere as of yet. I will stay out of that mess, as there is plenty more to get into. Just because some political group may have gotten involved in this should not diminish her pleas.
 
Not being a part of that side of politics has its perks, then. At least we haven't come to cameras everywhere as of yet. I will stay out of that mess, as there is plenty more to get into. Just because some political group may have gotten involved in this should not diminish her pleas.

What pleas? She made a religious issue out of something that has nothing to do with religion. A requirement of being a counselor is being able to suspend personal beliefs for the duration of working with a client. I have no more right to try deny services to or try to change Christian clients than she has to try to change or deny services to gay clients. If she has a legitimate plea, then maybe I should go to court arguing that my personal beliefs are violated by the social work code of ethics making me provide services to Christians who may need them.

And where does this end justme? Should she be entitled to deny services to young woman who have had abortions? Can she deny services to Muslims and people of opposing religious beliefs? If a man admits in private with her that he is cheating on his wife, can she then deny services to him? If a teenage boy asks her whether masturbation is harmful, can she deny services to him? At what point is this woman going to be accountable as a counselor? Is protecting her personal beliefs more important than her providing competent treatment to her clients? Why should she even be a counselor if she can't provide the care that clients need because of her personal beliefs?
 
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Satya, her pleas are personal. I must sleep on this to mess with it any more. I am tired and do have other things beckoning my attention. I am not throwing a towel at you.
 
What pleas? She made a religious issue out of something that has nothing to do with religion. A requirement of being a counselor is being able to suspend personal beliefs for the duration of working with a client. I have no more right to try deny services to or try to change Christian clients than she has to try to change or deny services to gay clients. If she has a legitimate plea, then maybe I should go to court arguing that my personal beliefs are violated by the social work code of ethics making me provide services to Christians who may need them.

And where does this end justme? Should she be entitled to deny services to young woman who have had abortions? Can she deny services to Muslims and people of opposing religious beliefs? If a man admits in private with her that he is cheating on his wife, can she then deny services to him? If a teenage boy asks her whether masturbation is harmful, can she deny services to him? At what point is this woman going to be accountable as a counselor? Is protecting her personal beliefs more important than her providing competent treatment to her clients? Why should she even be a counselor if she can't provide the care that clients need because of her personal beliefs?

You say she made a religious issue out of something that has nothing to do with religion. I have to ask how one, as a counselor, would counsel her on that? Would it be called that? Would she be told she was wrong? I am just curious, and others can help, as if she were not a counselor but one in need of a counselor.

I am buying a bit of time due to a personal issue that has my attention in the ditch. I am not near the top of my game, so bear with me a little folly.
Would she be judged to be wrong and counseled as such? This is important to me.

As for where it ends? Is that more important now? No. I do look down the road with you, though.
 
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You say she made a religious issue out of something that has nothing to do with religion. I have to ask how one, as a counselor, would counsel her on that? Would it be called that? Would she be told she was wrong? I am just curious, and others can help, as if she were not a counselor but one in need of a counselor.

A therapeutic counselor does not provide legal counsel. They would refer her to an attorney if the question of the legalities of her case came up.

I am buying a bit of time due to a personal issue that has my attention in the ditch. I am not near the top of my game, so bear with me a little folly.
Would she be judged to be wrong and counseled as such? This is important to me.
In the legal sense, the precedent has been that the universities have a right to set and enforce their own curriculum. As long as a student knows beforehand what is expected of them, and still chooses to apply to a program, they legally don't have grounds to argue that their rights have been denied. If this were not the case, then anyone in any program could pretty much argue that their personal beliefs conflict with the curriculum and have it changed to accommodate them as opposed to what is needed to produce the skills for the profession.

As for where it ends? Is that more important now? No. I do look down the road with you, though.
No offense justme, but I would like you to reconsider your personality type. This is not meant to be an attack of any sort, I just felt it appropriate to interject here and present this evidence to you. You do not try to foresee how current trends will turn out in the future. That means you do not use Ni. Furthermore, you base your judgments on a deep personal sense of right or wrong, which is indicative of dominant Fi not Fe. You are clearly an INFP.
 
You say she made a religious issue out of something that has nothing to do with religion. I have to ask how one, as a counselor, would counsel her on that? Would it be called that? Would she be told she was wrong? I am just curious, and others can help, as if she were not a counselor but one in need of a counselor.

Would she be judged to be wrong and counseled as such? This is important to me.

Ok - I'm not quite certain as to your meaning here JustMe - but this did occur to me:

I would counsel her from a representative of the school's view that if she wishes to become a social worker she will adhere to Ethical Standard 1.04 Competence:

a). Social workers should provide services and represent themselves as competent only within the boundaries of their education, training, license, certification, consultation received, supervised experience, or other relevant professional experience.
c) When generally recognized standards do not exist with respect to an emerging area of practice, social workers should exercise careful judgment and take responsible steps (including appropriate education, research, consultation, and supervision) to ensure the competence of their work and to protect clients from harm.

These codes cover the United States and I've compared them with 3 other codes from elsewhere in the world and they are all very similar. So this is not a localized or new phenomenon as the US SW code dates back to 1920's with formal language voted in by the 60's.

The young student would not have received education nor training at the schools because there is no justification for teaching it - yet.

While the point of view of the young woman is to say gay/lesbian persons are mentally ill based upon religious teachings and need to be treated - there is no evidence from scientific research methods that points to their methods of intervention are successful - nor harmful.

And in the last part, 'harmful' is what bothers me. I have encountered many wounded people and one of the biggest wounds they have is related to the church and their religious teachings. If most of the funding for mental health service facilities goes to Faith Based Organizations, then there are not many choices for those people. I see that happening around me for at least 12 rural counties.

So we try to graduate social workers with broad views and who believe in God if they choose and to help all of their community - not just the Believers. We are supposed to have an all inclusive mind view. Following the Code of Ethics ensures that view.

IMO the student does not meet that criteria. That broad view I mean.

I'm sorry if I've come on too strong here. It's not my intention to do so - but I am recognizing some frustration on my part from a completely opposite point of view.

Ironically - a job position came available at a Faith Based Agency for battered women and children. I was so excited because that was one of two positions I really wanted to move into next. But - I found out the Director wanted a Christian SW to work there so she could lead the Bible studies required for receiving assistance there. In all good conscience I cannot apply for that job. I just can't do that.

So you see - it's not a personal attack on her beliefs per se - it's how she presents herself that defines her as being too narrow minded for a broad and all inclusive view. She'd be great as an advocate social worker though!

I hope this gives you food for thought. I know - I know it's way too much right? Hahahaha.
 
No offense justme, but I would like you to reconsider your personality type. This is not meant to be an attack of any sort, I just felt it appropriate to interject here and present this evidence to you. You do not try to foresee how current trends will turn out in the future. That means you do not use Ni. Furthermore, you base your judgments on a deep personal sense of right or wrong, which is indicative of dominant Fi not Fe. You are clearly an INFP.

I understand your logic, but once again I fail to express myself properly. I do think about the future more than most. I stated I look down the road with you, did I not? Do you expect me to stop in the middle of this discussion and explain away all the foreseen problems in the list of situations you mentioned? I do not take that as a personal attack. We have gotten along entirely too well in this to digress into such. Let us talk about this first and all the other things next. We have a lifetime to deal with it all. I also hinted it is wrong to make a bad decision regarding a specific situation just because it may cause more situations down the road. Problems are problems. "I can't give you that big of a raise in salary just because you deserve it, because I can't afford giving everyone a raise like that." Hope that makes things more clear at least a bit...

You also misunderstood me, or I did not explain well enough(or both), regarding another question. At least know I did not mean to infer her seeking legal advice. How would you counsel a young lady that came to you and told you she had problems with people like you(please don't make me search for the politically correct terms) because of her religious views?
How would you counsel her? How would you counsel her if she were not seeking to be a counselor?
 
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Ok - I'm not quite certain as to your meaning here

I am used to that....

While the point of view of the young woman is to say gay/lesbian persons are mentally ill based upon religious teachings and need to be treated - there is no evidence from scientific research methods that points to their methods of intervention are successful - nor harmful.


So we try to graduate social workers with broad views and who believe in God if they choose and to help all of their community - not just the Believers. We are supposed to have an all inclusive mind view. Following the Code of Ethics ensures that view.

IMO the student does not meet that criteria. That broad view I mean.

I'm sorry if I've come on too strong here. It's not my intention to do so - but I am recognizing some frustration on my part from a completely opposite point of view.

Ironically - a job position came available at a Faith Based Agency for battered women and children. I was so excited because that was one of two positions I really wanted to move into next. But - I found out the Director wanted a Christian SW to work there so she could lead the Bible studies required for receiving assistance there. In all good conscience I cannot apply for that job. I just can't do that.

So you see - it's not a personal attack on her beliefs per se - it's how she presents herself that defines her as being too narrow minded for a broad and all inclusive view. She'd be great as an advocate social worker though!

I hope this gives you food for thought. I know - I know it's way too much right? Hahahaha.

For the sake of my own ineptitude, tell me she did not say they were mentally ill.

As for your coming on strong, I like it. Teach me. Talk to me. Educate me.
How long has the code of ethics accepted, with such inalienable rights, those we are talking about? Are they spoken of in writing in the code of ethics now, or is it now they have become part of the accepted code of ethics? Have they always been so? In writing or now in understanding? How were these people viewed ninety years ago concerning ethics? How are they viewed concerning specific religious teachings? Can a person that hates religion counsel a religious person without bias? I know your answer, but do they?

Five stars to those that can, and I know there are those that do. I also know there are entirely too many out there to mention on both sides considered too narrowminded. She sees herself as standing up for what she believes, and others see her as narrowminded. Tough pill to swallow; maybe not for you or others, but for many.
 
Furthermore, you base your judgments on a deep personal sense of right or wrong, which is indicative of dominant Fi not Fe. You are clearly an INFP.

+1

I have thought this for a long time.
 
But where does this perception come from?

Isn't it based on social norms regarding what's consider normal by society and the bible more of an indicative of Fe, which tries to adjust their views according to the social norms?.

I just get a very ''J'' vibe.
 
For the sake of my own ineptitude, tell me she did not say they were mentally ill.

The student argued that homosexuals suffer from a disorder known as "identity confusion" and allegedly, she favored a highly discredited treatment known as conversion therapy to try to change homosexuals into heterosexual people.
 
How would you counsel a young lady that came to you and told you she had problems with people like you(please don't make me search for the politically correct terms) because of her religious views? How would you counsel her? How would you counsel her if she were not seeking to be a counselor?

I have worked with people who don't like gays quite a bit. Normally, I don't reveal to my clients that I am gay because it has nothing to do with providing services to them. As a probation officer, many of my juvenile clients were very homophobic and very verbal about it, but it did not in any effect how I worked with them. It would be a violation of everything I stand for as a social worker if it did.

If a fellow student came to me and expressed such views then I would encourage them to do research and to consult supervisors. You would need to be more specific as to why I would be providing counseling to her, but no matter what the case may be, her views on gays have nothing to do with whatever treatment she needs from me and would be irrelevant in the process of providing it.
 
But where does this perception come from?

Isn't it based on social norms regarding what's consider normal by society and the bible more of an indicative of Fe, which tries to adjust their views according to the social norms?.

I just get a very ''J'' vibe.

We are speaking in terms of cognitive processes. Everyone has a Judging function. The question is whether it is Fi or Fe. Nothing justme does is indicative of Fe. Even his posting style is incredible Fi dominant.
 
Thanks for clearing up the "mentally ill" part. It would have been somewhat distasteful for someone studying counseling. Thanks for using the word "allegedly", too.

I go to great pains to try and post things to be understandable here; it is not my usual discussion style. I actually discuss most topics I discuss here in real life with a modicum of time. I tested close to P at close to 60/40 twice. Close does not count. After reading about the infp in detail, I am definitely not one. There are a few similarities I can see, but on the grand scale of things too many wrongs. I especially do not see the world through rosy-colored glasses.

I would love to focus on other things at this point. I hope to have shared how one could feel regarding this from a Christian's perspective. I have seen how some of those feel from a counselor's perspective. The jury would be unable to conclude a 100% vote with me in it.
I would hate to throw away a good counselor for her failure to study something she sees as wrong.
 
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