Confidence is Useless

[Odyne]

Are you serious?......the OP and the study it showcases is so full of flaws I don't even know which ones to address first.



Confidence is essential.
Self-worth is essential.

How you build those two is what matters most.
Anybody telling you otherwise has no good intentions for you.




As for "Those with low-self esteem working hard and accomplishing most"; nobody ever works hard and struggles unless they have great self-worth. Behind any struggle, there is the desire to become better. Behind becoming better, there is a sense of entitlement. Why would you want to become better if you don't think you're worth what's better? <- THAT is self-worth.

Confidence, on the other hand, is built by experience, trials and errors, and the pursuit of a better life. The more you engage life, the more you understand it, the more you feel confident about moving forward and maneuvering in the world. You build confidence through your successes, and you foster humility through your failures. You rein in the former with the latter. The greater your confidence is, the greater your humility should be. Those two sustain a healthy self-esteem, and from there you find the drive to move forward.

Self-worth is existential.
Confidence is consequential.


-Fake- confidence is what breeds arrogance, narcissism and egomania. A confidence that is built on nothing of true substance. Anything that is built on falsehood will eventually falter and turn on you.

Fake confidence
Fake beauty.
Fake manners.
Fake emotions.


Fake, fake, fake, fake. People build so many things on "fake" nowadays; it is easier to pretend and delude yourself into a role, instead of putting in a sweat and effort to build yourself.





Anyways, I will never, NEVER, listen to someone tell me I should have low self-esteem if I want to be a better person. That I should give up on having faith and confidence in myself if I want success in the world. Not even if they have a hundred PhDs and all the evidence of the world. That's just a malicious way of bringing people down.



Ugh. In the words of the great @sandra_b : "I am upset."

 

[jimtaylor]

Are you serious?......the OP and the study it showcases is so full of flaws I don't even know which ones to address first.



Confidence is essential.
Self-worth is essential.

How you build those two is what matters most.
Anybody telling you otherwise has no good intentions for you.




As for "Those with low-self esteem working hard and accomplishing most"; nobody ever works hard and struggles unless they have great self-worth. Behind any struggle, there is the desire to become better. Behind becoming better, there is a sense of entitlement. Why would you want to become better if you don't think you're worth what's better? <- THAT is self-worth.

Confidence, on the other hand, is built by experience, trials and errors, and the pursuit of a better life. The more you engage life, the more you understand it, the more you feel confident about moving forward and maneuvering in the world. You build confidence through your successes, and you foster humility through your failures. You rein in the former with the latter. The greater your confidence is, the greater your humility should be. Those two sustain a healthy self-esteem, and from there you find the drive to move forward.

Self-worth is existential.
Confidence is consequential.


-Fake- confidence is what breeds arrogance, narcissism and egomania. A confidence that is built on nothing of true substance. Anything that is built on falsehood will eventually falter and turn on you.

Fake confidence
Fake beauty.
Fake manners.
Fake emotions.


Fake, fake, fake, fake. People build so many things on "fake" nowadays; it is easier to pretend and delude yourself into a role, instead of putting in a sweat and effort to build yourself.





Anyways, I will never, NEVER, listen to someone tell me I should have low self-esteem if I want to be a better person. That I should give up on having faith and confidence in myself if I want success in the world. Not even if they have a hundred PhDs and all the evidence of the world. That's just a malicious way of bringing people down.



Ugh. In the words of the great @sandra_b : "I am upset."

Breath... Haha I just thought this might be something fun to debate.

 

[Vict]

Bullshit.

 

[jimtaylor]

...or the lack of distinction. Much of the the terminology in this thread is being used interchangeably with muddled definitions to boot - which makes the premise hard to follow. In particular, the word 'confidence' which seems to be getting used where 'love of self' ought to be used. So maybe a better thread title would have been "loving yourself isn't a prerequisite for success."

That said, I think what you're driving is that one need not love themselves to be successful. Thus the reasons why highly skilled people (who are probably confident in their abilities) can become successful materially while becoming bankrupt personally. And, for the most part, I agree. But that's also just common sense.

Indeed. We could go on forever about the flaws with studies like this which would be boring as hell. I thought it might just be intersting to argue the general premise of the argument presented which is that confidence isn't essential for success. I do not agree with that premise but I can understand how the argument could be made to support it.

People who are not satisfied with themselves or what they accomplish may continue to work hoping to fulfill that emptiness within. This causes them to work harded because there is never enough. Just a thought.

 

[Odyne]

Breath... Haha I just thought this might be something fun to debate.

Hahahaha, I am calm now. I promise. I meant what I said though.

And to give this the benefit of the doubt; perhaps what this "study" wanted to accomplish is to remind people of Humility and the forgotten awareness and admittance of one's own limitations. Otherwise, everything about it comes off to me as contradictory and...plain wrong. Especially the idea that by having a low self-esteem you work harder to compensate for it and so you accomplish more than the confident person next to you. That just encourages very disturbing thoughts. I don't think it provides a solution to the "me generation". It only creates a different kind of narcissism; the "low self-esteemer on a moral high horse" narcissism.

They would be repeating the same mistake from long ago if they are driving towards the other end of the scale, instead of deploying their efforts to help people understand and manage the two virtues in a healthy balance.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

"the mediocre are always at their best"

I agree with the idea that self control is the most important element of success. Certainty is a delusion. When I notice someone is overly certain about something I instantly start to critique them and doubt what they say. To be successful one must have the perfect balance between humility and confidence. They must be humble enough to learn from anyone and anything, including their subordinates. They must also be confident enough to believe they are capable of achieving their goals. The champions stay humble and never stop improving. The losers think they have nothing left to improve.

 

[sassafras]

I agree with many of the posters here, so I'm not going to rehash the point (too much).

You cannot have self-efficacy without self-confidence, or vice versa. Both are essential to self-motivation, drive and performance which are the building blocks of success however way you choose to define it.

I think the word we're looking for here is 'arrogance' as it is opposed to 'humility.' It is possible to be confident and humble at the same time, after all, and that will help you keep your feet on the ground and help you keep stock of your achievements and potential pitfalls accordingly.

 

[Korg]

confidence [...] self image [...] self admiration [...] self esteem [...] self worth

self control

greater ability [...] appearance of the knowledge [...] understanding and ability

General confidence [...] high self worth [...]

They key is the use and distinction of words.

"Use and distinction of words" - well, you got that right, jimtaylor. Clarity is king. And in this awful shitmess of a thread, there's very little --if any-- of it at all.

Seriously, though. In the future, it would help to carefully select the words you want to use in order to convey your idea - and then stick to them. Otherwise nobody really knows what you're talking about when you throw them all out there interchangeably. I'm still not sure if we're all on the same page. Or what the page is at all for that matter.

 

[jimtaylor]

"Use and distinction of words" - well, you got that right, jimtaylor. Clarity is king. And in this awful shitmess of a thread, there's very little --if any-- of it at all.

Seriously, though. In the future, it would help to carefully select the words you want to use in order to convey your idea - and then stick to them. Otherwise nobody really knows what you're talking about when you throw them all out there interchangeably. I'm still not sure if we're all on the same page. Or what the page is at all for that matter.

Just used the words in the article. Of course if you want me to write a very long OP defining every word inside it then I can do so but then I really don't enjoy it. To get everybody on the same page I would have to define every thing and I personally don't want to do that. So use whatever definition you want or define it however you want. If I disagre with how you interpret it, I will let you know or I might not. But thanks for the advice, I will consider that in the future! ;D

 

[Korg]

But thanks for the advice, I will consider that in the future! ;D

I'm full of good advice. And you're welcome.

 

[894tt3h9]

I like this thread and only for [MENTION=1425]Korg[/MENTION]'s use of the word "shitmess."

 

[TinyBubbles]

Skimmed the OP and didn't read the rest of the thread, so forgive me if this post comes off as out of place, Buuuuuuut IMO confidence is a natural product of ones' experiences and skills, and further skills and experiences are likewise dependent on a certain level of confidence. And yes, writing lists of good traits when you feel like shit is bound to feel a little incongruous, but if they're only incrementally more positive than your baseline attitude, then over time those increments will add up and will probably result in your feeling better about yourself. To more specifically answer the question: No, confidence is not useless, a lack of confidence will limit your opportunities in life greatly, as well as distort your thinking, though of course the same can be said of too much confidence. Confidence tempered will realism is probably your best bet.

 

[jupiterswoon]

I opened this post thinking- "Yes something to argue" but I found I have agreed with most of the points on here- my one point of contention is that the one thing that is important to have confidence in your ability to learn. I meet a lot of people who openly tell me that they are stupid- and it drives me crazy, it's like a handicap that people proudly wear like some sort of status badge. Confidence in your ability to learn is crucial to actually being able to gain an ability, people who have confidence but no skills are just as annoying to me as someone who says "I'm an idiot" while grinning broadly.

 

[JGirl]

a certain level of self confidence is healthy but i have to agree with a lot of the OP's post.

 

[Quiet]

As I stated at the beginning there are flaws in studies like this. There is a reason why psychology is not a hard science and is instead a social science. It is sadly so much of the opinion of the individual and so called "experts" are just people who have trained for years under one school of thought. The measurements of such things are inherently flawed just because it is very difficult to get to a consensus idea of what self worth is and what healthy confidence is. It also depends on where you are geographically. By not being a part of the LDS faith here many people consider me to be lacking the confidence and self worth to be able to find god. This is their opinion just as your opinion is that confidence comes with humility and gracefullness. Not everybody would agree with your statement. it would be arrogance though to assume your idea of confidence is universal and correct.

Is Donald Trump confident? I would think so. Was Julius Ceaser and Alexander the Great confident? Again I would think so. The desire to achieve great things is not always a demonstration of a lack of confidence or self worth. It can be though. As always with a social science, things are not black and white, it is a shade of gray. One mans heaven is another mans hell.

Now I myself am a perfectionist to such a degree that I don't take time to relish in any of my accomplishments so it appears as some false humility. I know without a shadow of a doubt that I can achieve anything I set my mind to because I am too stubborn to give up. I am not looking for the monetary reward or fame, I just want to get the task done, get the answer and move on. For me the ability to accomplish anything isn't hingent upon my self worth. I've been at the bottom of the bottom goes as far self worth goes but it never stopped me from trying to accomplish my goals. For me the reason why is that in my life I've never had a doubt in my mental abilities even as others did but that confidence did not mean I loved myself and that when I looked in the mirror, I was happy with what I saw. Now I have a much more balanced life but still I am a perfectionist. I enjoy the feeling of when I learn something new, gain some new skill, fix some issue, solve some problem and so I pursue it.

I would say look at the "me generation" because they are the kings and queens of self love. The problem is that as studies are being done, people who have an abundance of self confidence and self worth demonstrate higher narcasitic, vain, egotistical tendencies and that praise can be addiciting. Like you said, those who have trauma in their past can need a lot of validation, others need none at all. Those who have also received a plethora of praise for every crap they took don't know how to handle failure and criticism or any type of disagreement where their amazing self is put in doubt. Over praising is just as dangerous as under praising. If a person is raised while being praised for every mediocre accomplishment, they might expect that same type of treatment in real life. This is that entitlement issue that so many people suffer from. They believe they are entitled to things that they are not willing to work for. instead of making their lives they believe they are entitled to everything they want.

There has to be a balance between the two. If someone has had their ego inflated their entire life they are going to hit a harsh reality when they leave home and they will continue to pursue that ego boost to support their image. The same could be said for the opposite. Those who have had abuse and trauma in their lives may pursue the validation they never received and compensate in other areas.

I appreciate what you're saying and I disagree. Clearly our conception of the terms confidence, self esteem, self love, success and ego are different. I guess this is a philosophical issue.
Logically I can not understand why someone with self love, belief in themselves, self confidence and high self esteem could be an arrogant person. You dont need to brag, conquor, lord it over over anyone if you have really have these traits. For me, narcissim and inflated ego is a mark of insecurity.

In regards to that sense of entitlement- i dont think that comes from people being praised and loved too much. That comes from ignorance and greed. There can never be too much love!

I also do not see how anyone can love someone else if they do not love themselves. This too, is a philosophical and spiritual concept, but it rings true logically fot me as well.

This kind of thinking where self worth and self confidence is devalued is a product of consumeristic culture. I can not stress this enough. Why would anyone equate success fwith trying to compenstate for low self esteem? Unless of course one equates success with being a good and quiet cog in the machine, and knowing your place and not wanting or expecting anything better. People that want to maintain the current social hierarchy would very much want to support a theory that suggests that low self esteem is actually beneficial. Because it is for them- it means that people keep their mouth shut, do what they're told and keep their head down, and of course buy a lot of shit. What could be better in a consumeristic culture? Insecurity breeds fear. Fear is the best way to control people.

 

[jimtaylor]

Since my original statement in my OP, that an argument like this and studies like this are inherently flawed because any and all statistical data can be construed to match any argument didn’t seem to register and people are taking this way too serious, I will again reiterate in an overly serious manor for such a forum the premise of the argument outlined in the article I read. My original statement; that I, expressing the argument and evidence in the article is not of my own research or design is going to again be stated here. It is not my opinion or of my belief that anything stated in this article is correct or valid in any way shape or form. Now some could take this as an attack [MENTION=1425]Korg[/MENTION] but really I don’t really care if you think that. I have no issues with Korg because he made a valid point and because I am OCD as shit, I have to address it before I go bat shit insane.

Going personal for a second, I in fact appreciate the no bull shit response. I like knowing what I did wrong without having to guess it. I hate trying to figure out what I did to piss people off so that was the most helpful response I have received in awhile.

My original intent was to bring the general argument presented by the article because I thought it interesting, nothing more or nothing less and I believed people would flip out about it which would lead to interesting conversation. What can I say? I like seeing how far I can push things before people snap and I hate boring conversations where everybody just agrees with each other. It is easier to understand someone once you have gotten around their barriers and I thrive in chaos so I need a little bit of it in my life. That being said I despise limiting a conversation to stringent definitions but I guess it is required to be able to have sustainable conversation and shit, I thought I was OCD.

So again to remove ambiguity, I will explicitly define terms and other shit and any other use or supposed understanding of the term makes your argument immediately invalid unless you can first prove the definition is wrong. Of course there is inherent flaws in this way of doing things too but fuck it, let’s do it anyways and see how many more people I can frustrate with one thread, I might have good laugh later. Plus, I am rather enjoying my recent self debilitating and alienating tail spin, it has been rather entertaining so let’s keep it going.

Here are the definitions to be provided by my lazy and lackluster search for definitions:
Confidence - 1.The feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust: "we had every confidence in the staff". 2.The state of feeling certain about the truth of something.
Self Worth - the quality of being worthy of esteem or respect; "it was beneath his dignity to cheat"; "showed his true dignity when under pressure"
Self Confidence - freedom from doubt; belief in yourself and your abilities; "his assurance in his superiority did not make him popular"; "after that failure he lost his confidence"; "she spoke with authority"
Self control - the act of denying yourself; controlling your impulses

Any understanding beyond these definitions is assumed to be false in this original argument as this is again my personal understanding of the article that I read and am now sharing with the audience. To stay on the same page because that is how things normally work when people are trying to discover something, we are going to ignore all other possibilities.

To remove any further ambiguity from this argument, the general premises of the argument is that confidence is bad, self control is good. Now that we have that black and white statement out of the way, we can look at generalizing everything else for our simplicity and understanding. Confidence is bad because confidence leads to arrogance which leads to inflated ego which leads to narcissism and all these things are terrible for production because people care more about getting their ego stroked than actually doing some type of constructive work. Do I need to define ego stroking or is the general concept understood enough? If it helps imagine another type of stroking and then apply it to the ego. The mental image should be enough. This is going beyond just the Western evil capitalism and consumerism and actually productivity which is essentially to humanities success and survival.

If every individual believes they are entitled to certain things such as higher education, wealth, happiness, a girl with a smoking hot body, etc… because throughout their life every mediocre accomplishment they have achieved is praised then this might not be the most beneficial thing for the society as whole or even for the earth in general because this entitlement issue might carry on to such things as this earth is theirs and they can use it how they wish. The air they breathe, the water they drink, the weed they smoke is their right as amazing, intelligent, living creatures to abuse as they wish.

So with all this in mind is confidence really that great of thing if it encourages all these other possible negative things? The argument is that no it is not a great thing and in fact it is counterproductive to the evil consumerist society of the west because it encourages workers to demand the ability to ignore calls after 5:00pm (I fucking wish). Honestly if consumerism is evil how the hell can anybody have any confidence at all if they can’t trust it, because isn’t that our definition of confidence?

The answer to all of this is no, confidence is not a good thing at all but self control is because it limits the damage that confidence causes. Confidence or the utmost belief in the truth of something causes wars through the highest confidence in religious preaching’s of inferior religions, wars of just the general idea that one person is superior to another for one reason or another but self control and doubt limit these things. The ability of a person to limit and control their impulses as controlled by confidence allows them to make reasonable and rational choices formed on logical.
This is the basic argument as I am understanding it with my over the top examples used to support my biased opinion…..

Like I said in my OP, I really like playing devils advocate and I can be a real asshole. I am pretty good at acting and despite the common opinion I have no issue with people hating me or else I wouldn’t talk about half the stuff I talk about. So in all actuality though I rather not be, I can be a rather big dick. Have a great night! I am tired, so I am going to bed now.

 

[Rferraris]

I threw a coin in the air. I wasn't sure how to answer, so I thought to leave it to chance. I'd base it in my past experiences, but I don't really have any.
I know one thing almost for certain is I don't really, or at least clearly know for sure.

I had a job once, I think. It was cleaning up a mess I made, but that sure didn't turn out well. I know I'll try harder next time, if there is a next time. Do you think there will be a next time. I sure hope so.

So the coin said "No"
But I don't remember the question.
I'm not feeling strongly about this, but I'm sure all my friends would agree, except I don't have any.

I guess I'd be more direct, but I'm not sure what I'd be direct about. Sure hope this helps. I really want to be a good person. Just not confident I can do that.
You'd hire me, right?

 

[jimtaylor]

I threw a coin in the air. I wasn't sure how to answer, so I thought to leave it to chance. I'd base it in my past experiences, but I don't really have any.
I know one thing almost for certain is I don't really, or at least clearly know for sure.

I had a job once, I think. It was cleaning up a mess I made, but that sure didn't turn out well. I know I'll try harder next time, if there is a next time. Do you think there will be a next time. I sure hope so.

So the coin said "No"
But I don't remember the question.
I'm not feeling strongly about this, but I'm sure all my friends would agree, except I don't have any.

I guess I'd be more direct, but I'm not sure what I'd be direct about. Sure hope this helps. I really want to be a good person. Just not confident I can do that.
You'd hire me, right?

Without a doubt. Haha

 

[LucyJr]

Humble people are much more confident then the proud one.

 

[LucyJr]

The thing with confidence is this, and its probably a dangerous affirmation, but it has been observed that only the West, and especialy the American culture, has the problem of confidence.
Go to Russia. Do you think confidence has any meaning there? Perhaps it has, but not as big as it has to the West culture. They have other words: courage, honor, integrity, dignity.

Read all the history, writters from all ages. See if ever there was a praise of psychological confidence, or trust in oneself, as a mean in itself, as a virtue.
The other problem is the cult of personality and the individualism prevalent in the West. It naturaly leads to competition. The image is also very important, even more emphasised than the essence of a person, the real man.

In other psychological approach, this issue of confidence is not even discussed, because it is known confidence and self-worth is not a mean in itself. It comes as a by-product. Focusing on confidence in itself as mean is just crazy. When one focus on the right things, he will naturaly become very confident.

There are many many many things which can be discussed here. For example, there is this saying..."You can take everything from a man, until you take him everything." Its a paradox. It means that even a beggar will defend its fundamental value as a human being when everything will be taken from him. Something in him knows that he is in a fundamental sense, equal to its fellow man.