Breaking out of Western Christianity's Belief Control | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Breaking out of Western Christianity's Belief Control

Yes...it would be much easier if we could adopt this perspective. So why haven't we? Why do we make it all so very complicated?

I'm not directing this question just to [MENTION=12533]Y0u[/MENTION]...but to All of you.

Why DO we hang on to our beliefs and how did they get so complicated?

Why do we think we need rules on how to communicate with our gods?
Why do we think we need to follow them?
Do we need a church to pray in or else our prayers won't get heard?
Do we need a man standing up above us to tell us how to behave?

Not having rules is some times scary. It also takes a lot of work, mentally, physically, emotionally...

I'm a chaote so I don't do religious rules so much. I use whatever I want and make my own. Sounds like fun maybe? Well some times it is the hardest thing to do because I am always my own leader. I don't have anyone else to look to. I have to really think about things and decide what they mean to me, on my own.

This doesn't mean I don't care, or do just random things without thought. My principles often reflect the common good. But it is because I thought them out truly, and did the work myself, because I find it best for me, not because anyone told me.

When other people make the rules, you don't have to do any of that. You can just sit back and enjoy the ride, not have to think too much, and if it goes wrong you can blame them because you didn't make the rules.
 
Not having rules is some times scary. It also takes a lot of work, mentally, physically, emotionally...

I'm a chaote so I don't do religious rules so much. I use whatever I want and make my own. Sounds like fun maybe? Well some times it is the hardest thing to do because I am always my own leader. I don't have anyone else to look to. I have to really think about things and decide what they mean to me, on my own.

This doesn't mean I don't care, or do just random things without thought. My principles often reflect the common good. But it is because I thought them out truly, and did the work myself, because I find it best for me, not because anyone told me.

When other people make the rules, you don't have to do any of that. You can just sit back and enjoy the ride, not have to think too much, and if it goes wrong you can blame them because you didn't make the rules.

There is an awesome lecture by Alan Watts in which he addresses this very thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af815ksm4RU
The rules, or religion, as it’s given to us is a sort of package that has to be unwrapped. And when it has been unwrapped, it’s not longer the package that’s important but the contents inside.
I think it’s good to have guidelines. It’s good when parents have bed times for their children, it’s good when they have special traditions that they can share together. It’s over-the-top when some customs or rules put a stranglehold on any kind of development, growth or open-mindedness.

Can I at least have your stuff after the rapture?

:)

Here are two interesting articles that interpret the book of Revelation in terms of the energy wheels (chakras) in the body all coming online (the seven churches and the opening of the seven seals).
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce10.html
http://www.edgarcayce.org/ps2/seven_chakras_J_Van_Auken.html
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Skarekrow
[MENTION=5807]AJ_[/MENTION]

I approach rules the way I approach music. Rules are fine and even useful, so long as you know when to break them.
 
“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
― Dalai Lama XIV

“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”
― Pablo Picasso

“Learn the rules, break the rules, make up new rules, break the new rules.”
― Marvin Bell
 
  • Like
Reactions: Skarekrow
This is why I find Ganesh in Indian culture so fascinating. Ganesh is the deity that will help anyone who asks for help, even if they don’t know who they’re asking it of. Once a year, they have a celebration honoring Ganesh and they make little clay statues of him to show their gratitude. At the end of the celebration, the people are to throw the clay statue into the river because Ganesh wants to teach them to not to be permanently dependent on anyone, including him.

An emotionally developed parent would want their child to grow to be strong, loving and independent – not subservient and perpetually guilty. A good guide would help the seeker but would want the seeker to learn to travel on his or her own, not be eternally dependent. In this reality, I believe that we can definitely benefit from guides, but the feeling should be appreciation and love without conditions, not continual dependency.

And if they were real physical beings that one came to regard as friends or family? The purpose of family, friends or mentors isn't to teach and then cast one off on their own. There may be some things that one has to learn for themselves, like being able to trust in one's own abilities, but is it so wrong to teach somebody when there is something to teach them? To me, that seems like the healthy social thing to do, instead of erroneously pretending each person is their own island who could have come so far on their own. Humans wouldn't have very much collective knowledge if every person had to start from scratch learning for example that one can make fire, build a wheel, use the fire to make engines work, know chemistry, or even how to relate better with the world. The wild children are perfect examples of this. To throw off social attachment is to be less human, and less as one's own person. In short, we are all dependent on each other to be what we are, and it has been much better than the alternative. Maybe the gods don't want us to see them as gods anymore, or as somehow inherently superior to us, so have let us develop on our own, or at least let us think that we have. Personally, I don't think they ever really left (at least for good) or stopped interacting with us; they've just done so in a less obvious way. And if you don't want someone to see you as a god, does that mean you don't want them to see you as a friend or mentor?
 
[MENTION=12533]Y0u[/MENTION]

There's a difference between teaching and understanding. The problem with several religions today is that people do too much teaching without encouraging understanding.

It's like with people who solve Rubik's cubes. A large majority of them solve using a method, but they don't actually understand or learn anything because they only follow the steps, like some kind of robot. Does it solve the cube? Sure. Does it make the person grow? No. It just programs them.

I could teach a person the steps to solve a Rubik's cube but they will never understand it unless they put the work in themselves. If they don't understand why the moves work then they're just repeating them like a drone. Might as well hand the cube to a robot since even robots can solve them now.
 
[MENTION=12533]Y0u[/MENTION]

There's a difference between teaching and understanding. The problem with several religions today is that people do too much teaching without encouraging understanding.

It's like with people who solve Rubik's cubes. A large majority of them solve using a method, but they don't actually understand or learn anything because they only follow the steps, like some kind of robot. Does it solve the cube? Sure. Does it make the person grow? No. It just programs them.

I could teach a person the steps to solve a Rubik's cube but they will never understand it unless they put the work in themselves. If they don't understand why the moves work then they're just repeating them like a drone. Might as well hand the cube to a robot since even robots can solve them now.

Indeed, sometimes teaching a warlord to be peace-loving is something that can't be taught. Expecting such a teacher to love their job, with no moral support, just ain't gonna happen. Prometheus's karmic 'punishment' for venturing into the wilderness was to have his liver, the source of his constitution, pecked at daily.
 
Last edited:
Indeed, sometimes teaching a warlord to be peace-loving is something that can't be taught.

A lot of things can't be taught. That'd be just one of them.

You can't teach experience. You can't teach meta knowledge. You can't teach epiphanies. But most of all you can't teach a person how to think.

No matter how much accumulated knowledge of humanity you give someone, you have to eventually release them so they can learn how to use it. The act of releasing them is what makes giving them the knowledge even worth it.
 
A lot of things can't be taught. That'd be just one of them.

You can't teach experience. You can't teach meta knowledge. You can't teach epiphanies. But most of all you can't teach a person how to think.

No matter how much accumulated knowledge of humanity you give someone, you have to eventually release them so they can learn how to use it. The act of releasing them is what makes giving them the knowledge even worth it.

And you can't expect them to teach well if they thoroughly dislike the experience of pupils who continue to blow each other up, most especially w/o any sort of recharging station.
 
Last edited:
And you can't expect them to teach well if they thoroughly dislike the experience.

I feel like you're trying to get at hidden meanings here. What are you implying exactly?
 
I think we both need more than Wilson for company.
hqdefault.jpg

I have a cat.
 
Mine's greedy and mean unless he wants food.

Mine is just lazy. Unless he wants food. Or petting. Or thinks I have food, or I've gone into the bathroom and shut the door, or if I'm late feeding him in the morning, or there's another cat outside.
 
1He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2"It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.…

Until a man see God spiritually, he is blind to God's Word.
 
Speaking of pets . . . I found an interesting video from a teacher of Vedanta in which he explains some thoughts on soul-mates, and how they can even be pets. It's food for thought at any rate :)

[video=youtube;cF6e8VmmZFI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF6e8VmmZFI[/video]
 
Speaking of pets . . . I found an interesting video from a teacher of Vedanta in which he explains some thoughts on soul-mates, and how they can even be pets. It's food for thought at any rate :)

[video=youtube;cF6e8VmmZFI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF6e8VmmZFI[/video]

My cat is mine for sure. Cat is also my spirit animal and I'm a very cat like person. My cat knows when something is wrong and always calms me. He can also remind me when I'm going too far. He's a good barometer for my stress level because he becomes really alert and stares at me like "hey, you need to chill out." Or he will hide and not sleep in his usual spots. I'm really aware of his comfort level and how mine reflects off his.
 
In Matthew 5:39, Jesus says “Do not resist an evil person.” Western Christianity has totally ignored or interpreted this saying away. The Western way is all about one-upping enemies and taking revenge — making bigger ships, better weapons, etc. than the enemy so that the country can protect itself from and punish foreign “evil-doers”.

The Gospels were composed during times when hundreds of Jews were being crucified each week. The obvious role of the Romans in the trial of Jesus as well as his execution had to be whitewashed and presented as sympathetically as possible. There was absolutely no criticism of Roman oppression, nor any mention of Jewish revolt. The Jews were cast in the role of villains, but this is historically illogical because the Sanhedrin had the right to pass death sentences. They did not need Pontius Pilate. Further, if they had wanted Jesus to be killed, he would have been stoned to death, not crucified. Crucifixion was exclusively used by Rome to execute the enemies of Rome. It was never a Jewish form of capital punishment. If he really was crucified, he did something to provoke Roman wrath, not Jewish wrath.

The three Synoptic Gospels have Jesus being arrested and condemned by the Sanhedrin on the night of the Passover. This could not be real history because the Sanhedrin, by Judaic law, were forbidden to meet over Passover. The Gospels state that the arrest and trial occurred at night, but the Sanhedrin were forbidden to meet at night, in private houses, or anywhere outside of the precincts of the temple.

It wasn’t until A.D. 325, at the Council of Nicea, convened by Roman emperor Constantine, that it was decided, by a vote, that Jesus was to be depicted as a god, not an enlightened teacher. A year after this the Council of Nicea, Constantine ordered all works that challenged the official orthodox teaching to be destroyed. In A.D. 331, he commissioned and financed new copies of the Bible. It was at this point that crucial alterations were made, and the new status of Jesus was fabricated. Constantine never even converted to Christianity. He was actually baptized when he was on his deathbed, completely unaware.

The only test of truth that one can make is the test of love and the well-being of all. If a person believes that God is truly all-loving (God is love), how can they believe that their God would ever require the blood-sacrifice of an innocent animal to “atone” for a person’s “sin”. Then the thought is taken even further by the (Holy) Roman Empire to say that one person was God’s son and that his blood/sacrifice will atone for everyone’s sin. This absolves people of responsibility -- how easy it is for someone to enjoy all earthly pleasures, without caring about anyone else, but as long as they say that they believe in a historic event, they will go to heaven forever. But if a person lives their entire life in a loving way, having compassion for all lives including animals, if they do not believe in a historic event, this “loving God” will send the person to burn in hell forever. How does this pass the test of love? In the West, we grow up seeing people who are somewhat well off, live a decent life, seem to have an orderly family — we see that they are “Christian” and think that their good fortune is the result of believing in a historic event, going to church on Sundays and giving tithes. The church threatens people by asking “Do you know where you will go when you die? If you don’t believe that Jesus died for your sins and come to church — guess what? You’re going to be sent to hell forever by our loving God”.

The Christian religion as the West knows it today is a creation of the Holy Roman Empire for the purposes of control. The system of belief/thought control that they created sought to scare citizens into a belief in which they must “submit” to any type of government because God put that government in control. The Germans believed this in the earlier part of the 20th century and look what happened.

The true teaching of Jesus is that the kingdom of heaven is in you. It’s not a matter of believing in a historical event, it’s about BEING LOVE YOURSELF, not judging another, doing the right thing, being open to the possibilities of being transformed by Love, having compassion for all living entities. Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and other loving teachers all taught these things.

Think of a typical horror movie, and how the hero has to do some sort of ritual or refrain from doing some sort of ritual that the other less fortunate earlier characters screwed up somehow. But the hero knows what to do and what to believe to escape that terrible fate. This is what Roman Catholic Church has created in a real life sense that has lasted centuries. But you can watch a horror movie any time you want -- it might be interesting to feel scared and terrified for a little while. The Roman Catholic church and fundamentalist Christianity can still play that role of horror movie for people who prefer that genre.

Hi, You don't know me and I'll be honest it's late and I should be in bed. But here I am none the less, you've done a lot of digging for lack of a better word and brought up some interesting points. Those points are wrong but their interesting so I figured I'd address them.

First and foremost, Roman persecution of the Jews didn't really kick off until somewhere between A.D. 60-70 with the first Jewish revolt, however Jews had been living in Rome since at least 100 B.C. without any notable problems. This would have placed Jesus' life and ministry outside the scope of the major Jewish Persecution, though h does predict it's coming. Their was a portion of the population that didn't get along with their Roman overlords and they did uses guerrilla tactics to fight against the empire, but they weren't representative of the Jews as a whole.


Second, the reason the Jews needed Pilot was specifically because the arranged circus court to condemn Jesus, which not have been ok with the public at large and as a side note there were a sect of Jewish politicians for lack of a better word, who were trying to cozy up to the Roman empire, This helped them show that they were indeed loyal citizens.


This bit about Jesus not being recognized as God is a tad bit foolish, The Epistles and the Gospels were widely circulated prior to the canonization and we have manuscripts of the new testament that predate the council, and they say the same things as their later copies that would become the Bible. On top of that their is widely circulated proof of early Christians believing that Jesus was God.

I don't actually have time to explain Jewish sacrifices or their meaning, I'll skip it, but your still wrong.

Next, it's a bit of a misnomer to say that belief get's salvation, because salvation isn't a getting thing and it's not even the end game of Christianity, it's just the start. Your also painting in very broad brushes with western Christianity, which is silly being that is one of if not the most diverse religion on the planet. But I mean if you base your idea of Christianity on Fox news then your probably spot on.

Nazi Germany was not Christian...... it just wasn't.

Finally, The Teaching of Jesus Christ was that The Kingdom of Heaven is now, now act like it(I'm paraphrasing). Part of that, most that mean being loving, In fact all of it eventually boils down to Love. Because God isn't loving, God is love. But Love is more then empathy and compassion, Love is also justice and mercy and whole other host of things. Which is a significant reason as to why we have so many epistles, to help us understand what love is and to show us what it ain't.

You should stop working under the assumption that Christians act as they do because of some existential threat to their after life, most people hardly take the time to to try and comprehend heaven. What motivates Christianity is the worlds oldest love story, it's about a God who loved his people more then they hated him.
 
I don't actually have time to explain Jewish sacrifices or their meaning, I'll skip it, but your still wrong.

Nazi Germany was not Christian...... it just wasn't.

In 1933, the population of Germany was approximately 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic. ["The German Churches and the Nazi State". USHMM]

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."
-Adolf Hitler
[Speech in Passau 27 October 1928 Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf; from Richard Steigmann-Gall (2003). Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 60-61]

What motivates Christianity is the worlds oldest love story, it's about a God who loved his people more then they hated him.

Many stories in the Bible are images of the collective unconscious, as well as astrological events (I recommend An Order Outside Time: A Jungian View of the Higher Self from Egypt to Christ by Robert Clarke). The Age of Taurus (the Bull) was succeeded by the Age of Aries the Ram (Moses destroyed the Golden calf, symbolically representing the change from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries):
And when Moses came down from the Mount Sinai, he held the two tables of the testimony, and he knew not that his face was horned from the conversation of the Lord. And Aaron and the children of Israel seeing the face of Moses horned, were afraid to come near.” (Exodus 34:29—30, D-R).
The age of Aries was succeeded by the Piscean age, represented by the fish (the fish being a symbol of deeper consciousness as found in the stories of Enki, Vishnu, Adonis, Bacchus, etc). The Piscean age is succeeded by the Age of Aquarius: “A man will meet you carrying an earthen pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he goes in” (Luke 22:10). Since ancient times Aquarius was called the “water-bearer” and is symbolized by the Face of a Man in the Book of Revelation as one of the fixed signs of the zodiac.

There are many other myths (some predating Jesus' time by hundreds of years and more) about a god incarnating, and then being killed or sacrificed, and then raising from the dead. Many of these older myths are in relation to the actual event of the Sun going into the winter solstice (dying) on December 22 and then re-emerging on December 25:

Mithra and the history of Sun-Worship
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

a. The sun "dies" for three days on December 22, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25, it resumes its movement north.
b. In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
c. The sun is the "Light of the World."
d. The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
e. The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
f. The sun wears a corona ("crown of thorns") or a halo.
g. The sun "walks on water."
h. The sun's "followers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the Zodiac, through which the sun must pass.
i. The sun is "crucified," which represents it's passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

In addition, all over the world are sites where this "god" or that allegedly was born, walked, suffered, died, etc., a common occurrence that is not monopolized by, and did not originate with, Christianity. An early Christian Syrian writer (quoted in Credner's "De Natalitorium Christi Origine") wrote the following concerning the December 25 hoax: "The reason why the Church fathers transferred the celebration from January 6 to December 25, was that it was the custom of the pagans to celebrate on the same December 25 the birthday of the sun, at which time they lit lights in token of festivity, and in these rites and festivals the Christians also took part. Accordingly, when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a liking for this festival, they resolved that the true nativity should be commemorated on that day."

A History of the worship of Mithras
Mithras is the Roman name for the Indo-Iranian deity Mitra or Mithra, and it is by that name that he was known the Persians. Mithra was one of the minor deities under Ahura-Mazda in the Zoroastrian pantheon, from 1,500 BCE onward. Since the beginning, Mithra, or Mithras has been associated with the Light of the Sun, Truthfulness, and Mediation.
1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.
2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.
3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.
4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.
5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.
6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).

“Suns of God” in other cultures:

KRISHNA - INDIA: Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth. King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of all male children born during the same night at He. Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.


ATTIS - Phrygia: Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savoir.

BUDDAH — INDIA: Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th. He was announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs. He taught in temple at age 12. Tempted by Mara, the Evil One, while fasting. He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. Buddiah healed the sick and fed 500 from a small basket of cakes and even walked on water. He came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world. He transfigured on a mount. Died (on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead. Buddiah was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.

DIONYSUS - GREECE: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles. Turned water into wine. Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god. He rose from the dead March 25th. Identified with the ram and lamb's and was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

HERACLES — GREECE: Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her god-begotten child was born and was sacrificed at the spring equinox. He too, was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."


OSIRIS — EGYPT: He came to fulfill the law. Called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men. Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.") At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Osiris was baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) He performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water and was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter. Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth." Expected to reign a thousand years.
Tammuz — Ancienct Babylonian God - "the child", "the heroic lord", "the sentinel", "the healer", and the patriarch who reigned over the early Babylonians for a considerable period. "Tammuz of the Abyss", by legend, reigned in Babylonia for 36,000 years. When he died, he departed to Hades or the Abyss.

**********************
 
Last edited: