ARG!

[Chessie]

There's a thing I've noticed an awful lot on the forums since it's one of the few places I get to see INFJ's interact with non INFJ types in large numbers.

It's an assumption that non-INFJ types make and it regards the INFJ intuition/insight. The assumption is that it is possible for a non-INFJ to understand the internal operation of an INFJ and to give them advice. While it is extremely nice to get advice from people of many different perspectives it is literally impossible for other types to step entirely into an INFJ's shoes.

The universe an INFJ inhabits is vast, nebulous, and simultaneously abstract and extremely solid. We have fractal brains. Our impressions may often be seen as somewhat unfriendly (particularly from the inside) but they're very rarely entirely incorrect. Most often we find ourselves unable to find the words to express an idea which is composed of a mixture of emotions, images, sensations, and other emphemera.

The lack of expression can be problematic since all too often the external input often confirms the internal set of ideas but we can't get the output out there in sufficient quantities or with a particular communication style to make it understood that WE UNDERSTAND.

This is a truth. Sad, but true. It is impossible to understand an INFJ if you aren't one. That sentence is going to get some big denials (I'm looking at you INTP's, ISTJ's, and INTJ's) but I swear it's true. We read your replies to us and the replies from other INFJ's seem to...sync...even if there's disagreement. I do wish this were easier to express.

I would love some input from some of the other INFJ's. I need to find a better way to get across the idea that 'NO...you don't get what it's like in my head and YES, I do get what it's like in yours'.

 

[Jana]

Well, you are right. In my head is lot of mess for outsider...it is hard to explain why I bother in some cases or why I act in certain way.

 

[acd]

I disagree. I think other people are usually able to understand me quite well regardless of their type..and visa versa. I don't usually have a problem articulating my meaning or thoughts or feelings to others when I wish to do so. I think it all comes down to emotional and social intelligence, rather than cognitive functions..

I also value the input and advice of others with different perspectives, as I like to broaden my views.
I also don't really think there's a whole 'nother set of rules or truths or wisdoms for INFJs than there are other people.
A lot of things--if not most things are universal.

 

[soulseeker]

This is a truth. Sad, but true. It is impossible to understand an INFJ if you aren't one. That sentence is going to get some big denials (I'm looking at you INTP's, ISTJ's, and INTJ's) but I swear it's true.

I would love some input from some of the other INFJ's. I need to find a better way to get across the idea that 'NO...you don't get what it's like in my head and YES, I do get what it's like in yours'.

hahahaha My close friend is an INTJ and yeah she thinks she gets me all the time. At first I thought she did but I realized that even she can't understand me at times

I haven't met that many people to say if no one really gets me but as of now, NO ONE REALLY DOES ) ) hahahaha I guess it's just me, myself, and I

People do understand but only until a certain point. Not what i really feel ughhhhhhhh I don't even understand myself when things get complicated. There's just too much things going on in my head.

 

[Edith]

Personally, I disagree with you. But you are welcome to your own opinion, of course. :thumb: I'm sorry you feel that people don't understand you.

 

[88chaz88]

I do wish this were easier to express.

You know that this is probably the root of your problems. From my experience Ni doms find it hard to express what they're thinking. To top it off they're usually very private people and won't let themselves express what they mean. INFJ's will typically find this more of a problem because being an F type, they put more weight on the opinions of those close to them. Although if another type takes the time to understand and the INxJ is willing to let them in then they can be understood perfectly. We're all human after all.

Of course, you'd relate to other INFJs more because naturally we understand those with the same type as our more easily.

 

[not sure]

Many problems have solutions that don't need to take into consideration emotions. Simple cause and effect combined with discipline.

 

[Blind Bandit]

I agree with @Chessie Non INFJs or even NFs can't really give advice that's truly relevant for anything more than prospective.

Every type can give a good prospective and help us gain new insight but that takes time to filter.

To give advice to an INFJ can really use. Two conditions must be meet.

1. The INFJ needs to be understood and I do mean at a deep level. Not someone invalidating an INFJ and simply assume What they feel and think. But true understanding. Not many types can do this in the first place. Too many folks seem to either think they understand or simply steam roll the INFJ's opinion. Ignoring what they feel and using what as seen as "normal." Ni is hard to understand but its how we process and its part of our core.

2. The INFJ needs true empathy and not empty handed niceties. Most types that understand our thought process miss this and their advice doesn't really help. INFJs are feelers (Fe) and this can't simply be invalidated or ignored. For ignoring this is as bad as ignoring the INFJs thoughts (Ni). When we are told to just get over feelings, or told to disregard emotions this shows that the person speaking doesn't understand part of who we are.

@kiu shows problems with number 2 (removing all factors but logic) and @88chaz88, shows problems with 1 and 2 (1 asking an INFJ to be more Sensory. Or Being someone their not, and 2 lacking empathy over the situation). Both these assumptions are Invalidating to the INFJ. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the INFJ type.

Even on this forum we see INFJs shy away from just telling it like it is. I see it all the time. We keep things PC and not trying to ruffle feathers but sometimes I think we need to be more real. Yes of course I can't speak for everyone here, but I do know topics like this go under discussed because people are afraid to be honest.

 

[not sure]

[MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION] shows problems with number 2 (cutting everything down to logic)

I'm sure that's how it is seen. However, when someone explains their situation I often can empathize because I've had similar experiences. I may have trouble articulating that but it doesn't mean I do not understand. Once, I've said that I understood, there is nothing else that I can do to help you than to point to a solution. I get bored with everyone saying how unknowable they are. We all feel emotions. This is why everyone of us can be moved by writing or music. Love, anger, apathy rages through everyone of us. I may not have the words to soothe but I think it's silly to think that because I lack the words that I don't understand. I just don't see the point of dwelling in a negative place if there is a solution that will bring relief.

 

[Blind Bandit]

I'm sure that's how it is seen. However, when someone explains their situation I often can empathize because I've had similar experiences. I may have trouble articulating that but it doesn't mean I do not understand. Once, I've said that I understood, there is nothing else that I can do to help you than to point to a solution. I get bored with everyone saying how unknowable they are. We all feel emotions. This is why everyone of us can be moved by writing or music. Love, anger, apathy rages through everyone of us. I may not have the words to soothe but I think it's silly to think that because I lack the words that I don't understand. I just don't see the point of dwelling in a negative place if there is a solution that will bring relief.

Your correct but I think I can be more clear with this.

INFJs follow this pattern often.


1. think on and try to understand something not so much judgment yet(Ni)

2. Need to feel whatever it is they are feeling (Fe)

And then they move on to judgment or use the last two functions to figure things out. But what I'm trying to get at is INFJs need to feel whatever it is they are feeling and to not be given the chance to do so messes up their thought process.

And as you pointed out many Thinkers disregard emotion as fast possible. Or simply find it unhelpful. And and INFJ doesn't operate that way. Emotions can't simply be put to rest they must be dealt with and sometimes that takes time.

I wouldn't have added to this topic if I didn't think I had something to say. INFJs are very misunderstood group. I think that ignoring this just adds to problem. While I may not have a great solution to fix this. Its at least as important to acknowledge the problem. Even if a quick fix can't be found.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I agree with [MENTION=2575]Chessie[/MENTION] . It is much the nature of Ni to form a unique opinion and perspective as the 'personal' perspective from the information provided. It's rare that people can gel with that even other Ni users. I don't expect other people to agree with my point of view; that is exactly why I always respect peoples rights to an opinion. It's somewhat a natural consequence of the Ni dominants world that in order to see through things you will land at points of view which others will not simply disagree with, but they can often be unable to understand.

 

[88chaz88]

@kiu shows problems with number 2 (cutting everything down to logic) and @88chaz88, shows problems with 1 and 2 (1 asking an INFJ to be more Sensory. Being someone their not, and 2 lacking empathy over the situation). Both these assumptions are Invalidating to the INFJ. It shows a fudmental lack of understanding of the INFJ type.

You know, considering you believe I lacked empathy over the situation kind of invalidates the belief that INFJs understand non-INFJs. Yes I know how it feels to not be understood, that's happened just now, I however deal with things by learning the reasoning behind them, maybe the INFJ doesn't. If this is the case it's probably due to the same perception functions but different judging ones.

Also I'm not saying you should stop being who you are, but if you want to be understood by all then you do need to meet halfway. I make a great effort to try and understand my good lady and she makes an effort to understand me. We need to let each other in though. As it stands both of us suffer the problem with not communicating our ideas clearly, so I have to use my Ni to figure out what she means, and vice versa with Se.

That's really what typology is all about, developing yourself. You can't sit around and settle into your own little box and expect people to accept it, especially when your type is so rare. Developing Ti and Se is a good thing for an INFJ, not something that should be avoided.

 

[InvisibleJim]

You can't sit around and settle into your own little box and expect people to accept it

Dude... this is what typology is about to those who wish to make friends and influence people... I hardly think it's appropriate to tar the purpose of analytical psychology with such a broad brush. Some of us could not care less about others 'acceptance' nor do we have any need for it. We are simply intrigued.

I mean fair point, that's what it's about to you and there's absolutely nothing wrong with accepting what something is about to you and stating that it is your reason. There is a power in that and you shouldn't shirk and hide your true interests behind group-reasoning when it's something that's important to you.

It's the self, live for it and it's needs and desires.

Let it out and shake it all about.

 

[not sure]

Your correct but I think I can be more clear with this.

INFJs follow this pattern often.


1. think on and try to understand something not so much judgment yet(Ni)

2. Need to feel whatever it is they are feeling (Fe)

And then they move on to judgment or use the last two functions to figure things out. But what I'm trying to get at is INFJs need to feel whatever it is they are feeling and to not be given the chance to do so messes up their thought process.

I must accept this even if I don't understand it. From my point of view, if a solution is put on the table it doesn't prevent you from continuing to explore your emotion and evaluate the solution later. I do not understand that inability or reluctance to switch modes. You are right. However, it does create this problem for me. I have no way of knowing when it is appropriate to offer a solution. There is rarely any clear indication.

 

[88chaz88]

Dude... this is what typology is about to those who wish to make friends and influence people... I hardly think it's appropriate to tar the purpose of analytical psychology with such a broad brush. Some of us could not care less about others 'acceptance' nor do we have any need for it. We are simply intrigued.

I'm pretty sure this entire topic is about caring for acceptance. If you don't want to develop, then don't. I was simply giving advice.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I'm pretty sure this entire topic is about caring for acceptance. If you don't want to develop, then don't. I was simply giving advice.

In my view the OP is about people being accepting of their own needs and thought processes, that others sometimes just won't understand you and that's fine. Infact the post above is entirely relevant to the OPs interests!

I still love you though and your contribution has been extremely valuable and it gives us more insight into you.

Real acceptance comes when we accept one another differences, not when we demand that others represent the same viewpoints and opinions we have.

[MENTION=2575]Chessie[/MENTION] hit it on the head; it is easier for those of your type to 'sync' with these differences in opinion and not feel it's a big issue.

 

[88chaz88]

In my view the OP is about people being accepting of their own needs and thought processes, that others sometimes just won't understand you and that's fine. Infact the post above is entirely relevant to the OPs interests!

And as I said, it's a two way system. If others are going to accept you, you need to make yourself accepted. This is where MBTI knowledge gives you an advantage.

I'm going to stop here though since we appear to agree on all but the OP's intentions and I'm not going to assume what those are more than I have, especially considering Chessie hates my every being, or so it appears.

Edit: Can you not edit quite so much? It's rather annoying to those who like to reply so fast.

 

[InvisibleJim]

And as I said, it's a two way system. If others are going to accept you, you need to make yourself accepted. This is where MBTI knowledge gives you an advantage.

I'm going to stop here though since we appear to agree on all but the OP's intentions and I'm not going to assume what those are more than I have, especially considering Chessie hates my every being, or so it appears.

Have you ever considered that she does not hate your every being, she simply does not prefer it?

There is no special need for an introvert to like people; we don't require everything to mirror the mirror (the outside to feel good so the inside can feel good) as you do.

If you can accept that distance and those Je manufactured boundaries then the world is your oyster and all of a sudden the water works work.

Edit: Can you not edit quite so much? It's rather annoying to those who like to reply so fast.

Not really. I often spend 15 minutes editing my posts to increase the value they have, things come out of my brain 1 line at a time and I don't like cluttering up threads with 5 or 6 1 line posts. It is also often wise to go back and make sure my intentions are as clear as they can be. Often the text I write is not acceptable for others to understand on the first pass.

 

[not sure]

Basically, I interpret this thread as, "We need to do this", which I've never disputed or even suggested that anyone not express themselves. Though, it seems to be interpreted that an offering of a solution is actually a veiled, "Shut up".

I've noticed on this forum that some people are actually making headway with their problems compared to when I first came here, when much of the forum was stuck in an infinite loop and I suspect that some of that could be attributed to the diverse opinions expressed here. I myself have made headway in my own problems by exploring my own emotions here, which I have been reluctant to do before. I personally have found immeasurable value in non-intj influence. Anyway, I'll stand aside.

 

[Billy]

Oh I think they get us, they just dont get why we obsess on stupid shit which in the long run is essentially mental masturbation... yeah thats how we are wired, but lets face it, a lot of it IS stupid and IS bullshit. So they get it, once they do, they dont want it. I dont blame them.