Am I INTJ? INFJ? Something else entirely? Please help. :)

[Rudy]

Ok, so, I admit I came to this forum with the primary purpose of using ya'll. ;-) I'm stuck on the question as to whether I'm an INTJ or an INFJ, and I'm hoping to get some input here.

A little background on me. I'm a 25 year old graduate student studying Economics. Though I have bachelors degrees in math, computer science and economics, I went to economics for my graduate studies because I thought it was the most geared towards actually changing the world.

I'm happy to answer absolutely any question about my personality, or my experiences; nothing is too personal when it comes to solving this mystery in my mind.

I'm pretty damn sure on the I, N, and J, but I'm happy to answer questions about those as well.


Why I originally thought that I was INTJ

* I loathe smalltalk, and the telephone (an engine of wretched impersonality,) and would rather sit in companionable silence than talk about trivialities.

* I was all computers, science, and math growing up, though I did a lot of reading fiction and non-fiction as well. Now I've started branching out into some more artistic hobbies as well, though.

* I have difficulty understanding or accepting most social rituals, unless I can see a reason behind them. I perfectly able to participate in them, and I do because I don't want to hurt anyone without good reason, but I don't get them.

* I get very annoyed when it seems to be that people are allowing their emotions to make their decisions for them. I feel things very, very intensely, but I struggle to not let these emotions control me.

* I like measurements, tables, rational systems. I want to quantify things, to put them to order in my head. I love predicting quantities, especially when I'm right.

* I love debate. I intensely savor instances where I am able to deconstruct or destroy the logic of my opponents' argument. When I am debating something, all that matters is the argument, the truth of the matter, the logic. In this state, I don't care one whit about personal considerations, or the emotions of those involved. I view debate as something in which personalities are set aside.

* While I am loathe to hurt anyone, I have a very hard time letting anything that seems illogical to me pass without questioning it. I'm almost incapable of it, in fact. I want to know why.



Why I am starting to think that I might be INFJ

* When I'm not in direct conflict with someone, such as in a debate, I put a lot of thought into avoiding hurting them emotionally; it's something I avoid stringently.

* I empathize, though do not necessarily sympathize, with just about everyone, whether I like it or not. This includes fictional characters, sometimes to an absurd degree. I am often unable to watch television or movies where a character is having strong emotional reactions, most especially embarrassment and/or shame. I'll literally leave the room/theater in many cases when I can tell such reactions are imminent.

* I feel responsible for the emotions of those close to me, even when their negative emotions are not my fault in any way, and I derive immense satisfaction from helping to improve their emotional state.

* I find myself completely unable to justify the means with the ends, even when it makes sense. For example, recently, when arguing with my INTP friend about North Korea, he felt that appeasement policies were justifiable in slowing the development of a nuclear weapons program. For my part, however, I can only focus on the immense amount of pain, abasement, starvation and suffering that Kim Jong-Il has visited on his people, and the situation they are in. It makes me actually nauseous if I focus on it for too long. I can't see appeasement policies as anything but a betrayal of these people, no matter how much logical sense they might make. I don't feel that any level of corruption or abuse is acceptable, nor do I deal well with people defending something as "the best of bad options." We'll find something better, damnit.

* To take a brief point from typelogic.com, I often fantasize about getting revenge on those who victimize the defenseless, and the concept of "poetic justice" is very appealing to me.

* I'm big on maintaining harmony in a group setting. I like hosting small gatherings and, as the host, am always very focused on drawing everyone into the experience.

* Though I don't claim to have any great skill at it, I enjoy writing poetry, especially expressing an idea or thought in poetic form rather than prose, something that's gotten some complaints against me at INTJforum.

* I'll often feel strongly that something is (morally) wrong, without being able to immediately articulate why.


Things that don't entirely fit with INFJness

* I don't get "gut" feelings out of nowhere, something which I've heard many INFJs claim that they do get. I often get "vibes" off of people when interacting with them, but I assume that this is due to signals that I am subconsciously noticing.

* I have no belief or inclination towards the supernatural, psychic phenomenon, etc., which is something that many profiles have indicated that INFJs tend toward (though maybe this is inaccurate.) I am a strict materialist in my view of the universe.

* I think that feelings are important, desirable, and often sublime. They are to be sought after in many cases. However, I don't think they can be used to justify things.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Honestly, you sound more like an INFJ then an INTJ to me. Your F and T sound equally strong.

Reason being is you seem to have a decent hold on Fi, which is a teritary function for INTJ's. If Fi is stronger then your Te, I would be very hard pressed to describe you as an INTJ. Your Ni does seem very strong, that is clear, and it does seem like you have some handle on Fe. Your Fe and Te could be in a balence toss. What would really siginify what you are is where your Fi and Ti are placed.

 

[Shaz]

Ok, this is a first quick response because it is past 2 in the morning here and I want to go to bed (but typology issues are more interesting than my bed)

I would say you could well be an INFJ with a very well developed tertiary introverted thinking. Not all INFJs have premonitions and such, it's never happened to me (and I'm absolutely certain I'm one), people write it in the type description because it's so cool . Some INFJs do but not all.

Also, most INFJs a quite rational. Something typical of the type is the struggle between reason and feelings. I think most INFJs wouldn't justify actions or theories by feelings, they would explain the whys and hows. I had read somewhere (INTJforum? Or INTP? can't remember) that INFJs are the most rational NFs, and the INTJs the most romantic NTs... I thought that was quite true... In any case, Introverted Intuition (which makes you see things from multiple points of view) coupled with introverted thinking makes for vey good analysis - and yours seems very well developed. Our Feeling function is only secondary (rereading myself I had written tertiary - hah, those written freudian slips, my unconscious must think you're an INTJ after all ).

I can relate very much to the fact that your emotions will be sometimes extremely strong, but will not dominate your head. I empathise with pretty much anything, but it doesn't mean that I agree with what I understand. We can be quite misanthropic allright. Because we get so affected by things and yet we see into them so well, we will get away from the world to protect ourselves sometimes.

I don't know. You could be an INTJ with well developped Fi but reading you, I don't see all that much Fi (but I might be biased against Fi because of INFPs )... Mhhhhhh.... It's tough!!! Maybe you're just in between (should I erase the rest of the post now?)

Ok, this musn't make that much sense, I will think more tomorrow.

 

[Rudy]

Your Ni does seem very strong, that is clear

Can I ask how you can tell this? I'm no expert on Jungian Function Theory, not yet at least.

What would really siginify what you are is where your Fi and Ti are placed.

Okay, so, let me make sure I have this right. Te has to do with comparing things with external evidence, do they work, etc, right? Ti is examining the internal consistency and logic of a system? If that is true, I think I'm pretty decent at both, but the Ti is probably stronger. I always attack the arguments of my opponents in debate, for example, by attacking the consistency of their argument, rather than comparing it to real world examples.

Fe v. Fi I'm less clear on. Fe is picking up on the emotions of others, I think, but there's more to it than that, right? I'm afraid I don't really understand what Fi is, which makes it difficult to evaluate whether I use it or not. Any insights in that area?

 

[Rudy]

Ok, this is a first quick response because it is past 2 in the morning here and I want to go to bed (but typology issues are more interesting than my bed)

Always glad to contribute to insomnia!

I would say you could well be an INFJ with a very well developed tertiary introverted thinking.

This has been my current thinking on the matter, but I didn't want to bias the immediate responses by stating so in my initial post.

Also, most INFJs a quite rational. Something typical of the type is the struggle between reason and feelings. I think most INFJs wouldn't justify actions or theories by feelings, they would explain the whys and hows. I had read somewhere (INTJforum? Or INTP? can't remember) that INFJs are the most rational NFs, and the INTJs the most romantic NTs... I thought that was quite true... In any case, Introverted Intuition (which makes you see things from multiple points of view) coupled with introverted thinking makes for vey good analysis - and yours seems very well developed. Our Feeling function is only secondary.

I also recall reading that INFJs are the most rational of the NTs, and I can believe it.

Is it possible for the strength of your tertiary function to displace your secondary? For example, could I be an INFJ who actually used Ti more than Fe?

I can relate very much to the fact that your emotions will be sometimes extremely strong, but will not dominate your head. I empathise with pretty much anything, but it doesn't mean that I agree with what I understand. We can be quite misanthropic allright. Because we get so affected by things and yet we see into them so well, we will get away from the world to protect ourselves sometimes.

Oh, yeah, I definitely have that get away from the world for protection thing going on.

Ok, this musn't make that much sense, I will think more tomorrow.

No, it was helpful. I don't really get what Fi is though, I must admit. Can you explain it at all?

 

[IndigoSensor]

I have a very strong Ni myself, so I readily see it when others use it. Ni is about getting to conclusions, without nesscerarly knowing how you got to it. I just see it in you

Fi, by it's very nature is diffucalt to explain. I'd say it is really the hardest function to deal with (as far as determining ones type) for MBTI, this statement that you said is very classic Fi: "I'll often feel strongly that something is (morally) wrong, without being able to immediately articulate why." Fi is about internal values, how you feel about something, the importance of self-emotions. What you like and dislike.

This statement is very Fe tempered with Ni, and I get like this very often: "I empathize, though do not necessarily sympathize, with just about everyone, whether I like it or not. This includes fictional characters, sometimes to an absurd degree. I am often unable to watch television or movies where a character is having strong emotional reactions, most especially embarrassment and/or shame. I'll literally leave the room/theater in many cases when I can tell such reactions are imminent." Fe will pick up on the emotions of others. When Fe is combined with Ni, this becomes extremely strong and can become very overwhelming.

You seem to understand Ti and Te enough. Ti is about picking apart theories and pulling out the inner detailed workings. Te is about putting things together, building systems and plans, being the leader in a way. I honestly see signs of all four (Fi, Fe, Ti, Te) of these functions. For the time being you can at the very least call yourself an INxJ. However, I do feel that you are a INFJ with a very strong T functionality.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Fe concerns itself with the feelings of others and relationships. Fi concerns itself with being true to the individual's feelings and beliefs.

You sound more INFJ to me, with a strong Ti. Ti would be interested with systems and concepts -- I myself am very interested in physics and sciences, and computers, technology, and machinery fascinate me. And social ritual is, for the most part, stupid, but we go with it

And don't worry -- INFJs don't always get crazy realizations from nowhere, and we are often very concerned with external control of emotions.

 

[Faye]

You should ask on the INTJ forums and see what they say, if you haven't already.

 

[Rudy]

I have a very strong Ni myself, so I readily see it when others use it. Ni is about getting to conclusions, without nesscerarly knowing how you got to it. I just see it in you

Fair enough.

Fi is about internal values, how you feel about something, the importance of self-emotions. What you like and dislike.

Ah, I see. I'd have to say, then, that my Ti is probably stronger than Fi, though the latter is by no means un-utilized.

Fe will pick up on the emotions of others. When Fe is combined with Ni, this becomes extremely strong and can become very overwhelming.

Yes... I just was reading a thread in another section about other people leaving the room, leaving theaters when the characters are in embarassing situations, as I do. Ugh! I can't stand it. My empathy with powerful emotions is... well, overwhelming is the word, many times, yes, sometimes imparing my functionality.

You seem to understand Ti and Te enough. Ti is about picking apart theories and pulling out the inner detailed workings. Te is about putting things together, building systems and plans, being the leader in a way. I honestly see signs of all four (Fi, Fe, Ti, Te) of these functions. For the time being you can at the very least call yourself an INxJ. However, I do feel that you are a INFJ with a very strong T functionality.

I think I agree. I was fairly inclined to call myself INFJ before I came here, but I wanted to get some opinions from INFJs as well. I think I'll wait for, hopefully, a bit more input before making it official, though.

Fe concerns itself with the feelings of others and relationships. Fi concerns itself with being true to the individual's feelings and beliefs.

Ok, I see.

You sound more INFJ to me, with a strong Ti. Ti would be interested with systems and concepts -- I myself am very interested in physics and sciences, and computers, technology, and machinery fascinate me.

Makes sense. Mmm... machines.

And social ritual is, for the most part, stupid, but we go with it

And don't worry -- INFJs don't always get crazy realizations from nowhere, and we are often very concerned with external control of emotions.

Good to know.

You should ask on the INTJ forums and see what they say, if you haven't already.

Oh, I have. I have well over 10,000 posts there, so lots of people chimed in. About half thought I was an INTJ with a well-developed F, and the other half thought I was an INFJ with a well-developed T. Though, as I'm one of the most known posters on that forum, I'm concerned that there are strong, preconceived notions about me that may interefere with an objective analysis there.

 

[Lurker]

I decided a while back that INFJ was right for you, I see mucho Fe.

/too lazy to back it up

 

[Rudy]

Hehe. Thanks for the input, Lurker. (Lurker and I know each other from elsewhere, for those confused by my newness to posting here. )

 

[Faye]

I am not sure if you are INFJ or INTJ. You definitely have strong Fe and Ti, which are the 2nd and 3rd traits for INFJ. How is your Te and Fi? 1) How are you at organizing people to achieve goals, and do you measure the success objectively? 2) Do you know what is important to you or what you want out of life? Was it hard for you to figure out?

 

[Rudy]

I am not sure if you are INFJ or INTJ. You definitely have strong Fe and Ti, which are the 2nd and 3rd traits for INFJ.

Okay.

How is your Te and Fi?

Decent, for the first, not sure for the second.

1) How are you at organizing people to achieve goals, and do you measure the success objectively? 2) Do you know what is important to you or what you want out of life? Was it hard for you to figure out?

1) Not that great at it, I don't think, though not horrible. I usually end up taking on too much of a project on myself in group situations. I often take on leadership positions because no one else is inclined to, however.

2) ... No, not really. I think I want to be a professor, and teach, but I agonized over even that forever, and I'm still not sure. There's still some part of me that is unsatisfied with that, though, but I'm not sure what would satisfy that part... if that makes any sense.

EDIT: I know that I want a family, and children. That's all I'm certain of.

 

[Tamagochi]

How do you behave when stressed? Is it easier for you to concentrate on work then or to become emotional and drift away? How do you react if someone from your professional environment gives you an unjustified emotional outburst: starts yelling at you or calls you incompetent and lazy?

You said that you studied math - how well did you perform compared to others (in terms of thinking speed and how much time did it take for you to grab a theoretical concept)? Did it felt "natural" for you or did you have to struggle?

 

[Rudy]

How do you behave when stressed? Is it easier for you to concentrate on work then or to become emotional and drift away?

Hehe, no, the more work I have to do the harder it is for me to get started on it. I start worrying about little things that don't really matter, like organizing my desk or apartment, or reflecting on the past and/or daydreaming.

How do you react if someone from your professional environment gives you an unjustified emotional outburst: starts yelling at you or calls you incompetent and lazy?

It's never happened, actually... I'm not sure how I would react, to be honest. I'd probably be very hurt, though I wouldn't show it.

You said that you studied math - how well did you perform compared to others (in terms of thinking speed and how much time did it take for you to grab a theoretical concept)? Did it felt "natural" for you or did you have to struggle?

I've always been a very high performer in every area of academia in which I've participated. It was not, and is not, my intention to use this thread as a bragging platform, but in case it is relevant to sorting this out: In secondary education, I placed in several national competitions for mathematics and computer science. In college, I won accolades/awards for my ability in economics, and my academic writing ability, and have been at the top of my class in economics and mathematics for many years.

In short, it's always come very naturally to me; I love the way math fits together, especially. The only reason I did not continue to graduate school in math, rather than in economics, is because it seemed too removed from people/affecting the world.

 

[Azure_Knight]

Some questions if you will:

1. Why is it important to know if you are one type or another? What is it that you believe you will gain from that knowledge? Is MBTI important to your identity as a person?

2. As far as answers go: do you prefer to have black and white answers (with clear cut boundaries), or to work within shades of gray?

3. What kind of artistic hobbies do you currently pursue?

4. With regard to emotion: you feel things very intensely, yet you struggle to keep it under control. What kinds of emotions are you trying to keep under control, and why?

5. How long have you been wondering if you are an INTJ or an INFJ? Was there any event or series of events that made you question your MBTI identity? A comment someone made, an observation that became apparent to you, an inconsistency with your MBTI type and the behavior listed for it? Are you trying to quantify yourself in a way similar to the way that you quantify other things (such as numbers, data, etc.)?

6. Have you been MBTI tested before? What were the results?

 

[Faye]

Okay, I think you're INFJ then.

INFJ= Ni, Fe, Ti, Se
INTJ= Ni, Te, Fi, Se

Earlier, I thought you might be an INTJ with strong Fe, but based on the way you structure your thoughts, I'm inclined to say INFJ now. It might be difficult to tell the difference for you because your Ni is so strong that it is a fairly dominating aspect of your personality. I think the reason you don't get "gut feelings" is that it (Ni) is so natural for you that you don't notice. It seems like you've subjugated your Fe and Ti to your Ni, trying to be logical, and deriving gratification from it, and hiding/subjugating your emotions because they don't fit into your Ni-Ti structure. Now, INFJs are introverted first and emotional second, but the difference is that your Fe doesn't seem to be being allowed to stand on its own.

In other words, you are so smart that it is literally hindering the development of your personality. I'm not saying you're undeveloped; you're more developed than I am, but at the age of 25 you just finished developing or are finishing developing mentally as a man if you are in the center of the curve.

My observation in well developed INFJs and INTJs (usually people in there 40s or so) is that their functions, particularly Fe and Ti in INFJ and Te and Fi in INTJ are perfect compliments of each other and work extraordinarily well together. Ni is always a big player, but they've backed it off a bit, or more likely developed their other traits more so that their full personality can manifest, that they can be true to who they are and happy.

So there is my take on you. I haven't ruled out the possibility that you are INTJ though.


(Believe at your own risk. Everything I said could be BS, and I'm not an expert on MBTI).

 

[Rudy]

1. Why is it important to know if you are one type or another? What is it that you believe you will gain from that knowledge? Is MBTI important to your identity as a person?

I want to understand myself. It's not so much that my MBTI type is a part of my identity, as it is a useful tool for understanding my identity. I don't really get myself, and I'd like to.

2. As far as answers go: do you prefer to have black and white answers (with clear cut boundaries), or to work within shades of gray?

I prefer black and white answers, definitely, though I'm not fully averse to gray.

3. What kind of artistic hobbies do you currently pursue?

Piano, singing and poetry. A very little bit of fiction writing.

4. With regard to emotion: you feel things very intensely, yet you struggle to keep it under control. What kinds of emotions are you trying to keep under control, and why?

It's not so much that I want to restrain the emotions, as I want to keep them from affecting my decisions. It's important to me that I make the "best" decisions, and I think that being emotional can interfere with that, for me at least.

5. How long have you been wondering if you are an INTJ or an INFJ? Was there any event or series of events that made you question your MBTI identity? A comment someone made, an observation that became apparent to you, an inconsistency with your MBTI type and the behavior listed for it? Are you trying to quantify yourself in a way similar to the way that you quantify other things (such as numbers, data, etc.)?

I only discovered MBTI in January. I joined the INTJ forum and, unlike here posted, a lot on it. I almost immediately questioned whether I was T or F, and there were a few threads about it there. The participants of INTJf, however, were able to convince me that I was "T". In retrospect, some INTJs would be biased towards convincing me that I was T, and the same might apply to some INFJs and F.

So, really, it's been a question that's never gone away since I've known of MBTI.

6. Have you been MBTI tested before? What were the results?

I've taken several online tests. Two INFJ, three INTJ as I recall. On the ones with numerical results, the T v. F number was always very close to the center.

 

[Rudy]

Earlier, I thought you might be an INTJ with strong Fe, but based on the way you structure your thoughts, I'm inclined to say INFJ now. It might be difficult to tell the difference for you because your Ni is so strong that it is a fairly dominating aspect of your personality. I think the reason you don't get "gut feelings" is that it (Ni) is so natural for you that you don't notice. It seems like you've subjugated your Fe and Ti to your Ni, trying to be logical, and deriving gratification from it, and hiding/subjugating your emotions because they don't fit into your Ni-Ti structure. Now, INFJs are introverted first and emotional second, but the difference is that your Fe doesn't seem to be being allowed to stand on its own.

Maybe, but I don't really think I've subjugated my emotions in any way. I go out of my way to feel emotions, intentionally watching sad movies, or listening to inspiring music, often crying in either case. I let joy at life bubble up in me unrestrained, usually letting it out with a laugh. I don't disallow myself emotions in any way, I just try to make sure that the decisions I make are not influenced by them.

In other words, you are so smart that it is literally hindering the development of your personality. I'm not saying you're undeveloped; you're more developed than I am, but at the age of 25 you just finished developing or are finishing developing mentally as a man if you are in the center of the curve.

I don't think it's accurate to speculate that intelligence can hinder personality. Now, what might, theoretically, have hindered the development of my personality is having focused on a certain type of academia, starting with "gifted" programs in primary school: math, sciences, computers, etc. That's a big might, however.

I would argue that the more even your use of all functions is, the better, but I am far from an expert as well.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

From all you've said, I'd say almost certainly INFJ. Our preferences, Ni Fe Ti Se, make it very easy for us to be close on the F/T scale, but you've described many things that are common to INFJs.