[PUG] All white people are racist and must confront their racism

[barbad0s]

@bamf

I take everything back. As per this page, you were correct all along. It's a difference in how "racism", versus "racial prejudice" alone, are defined.

What is Racism

Defining "RACISM": The Power Factor

In our experience, anti-racism education is a (rewarding and transformative) process that involves integrating an analysis of history and systemic/institutional processes with personal and particular, and often-emotional experience.
As you introduce ways to understand racism, for example, you are likely to be asked a number of questions based on participants' particular experiences, incidents, locations, and perspectives. (And you are very likely to find that white participants will be very anxious to show that they are not racist, or do not ‘mean' to be. See intentionality; individual and systemic racism.) You may be asked questions such as the following:

• "If I notice someone's skin colour is different from mine, is that racist?"
• "Can people of colour and Indigenous people be racist towards white people?"
• "What if I didn't mean to be racist? Is it still racism?"

Understanding how Power is the primary feature of racism is key.
An effective, brief definition of racism that works very well as a visual aid, and focal point for discussion, is this:

Racism = Racial Prejudice + Power ​

By Racial Prejudice we mean: a set of discriminatory or derogatory attitudes based on assumptions deriving from perceptions about race/skin colour.
Despite a lot of discourses to the contrary-- we live in a society that is structured as a hierarchy. (See liberalism, colour blindness, and democratic racism.) An expression of racial prejudice (in words and/or actions) always originates from somewhere on this hierarchy, and is directed at someone/a group in another location on the hierarchy.
By Power we mean the authority (granted through social structures and conventions)--possibly supported by force or the threat of force--and access to means of communications and resources, to reinforce racial prejudice, regardless of the falsity of the underlying prejudiced assumption.Basically, all power is relational, and the different relationships either reinforce or disrupt one another.
The importance of the concept of power to anti-racism is clear: racism cannot be understood without understanding that power is not only an individual relationship but a cultural one, and that power relationships are shifting constantly. Regardless of the type of power, including socially-imbued power, all can be used malignantly and intentionally. However, this not need be the case as individuals within a culture may benefit from power of which they are unaware.
Racism:

• occurs when an expression of Racial Prejudice emerges from a more powerful/privileged location in the hierarchy, and is directed at an individual/group in a less powerful/privileged location;
• occurs where the target of the prejudice has less power than the perpetrator;
• is top-down;
• is an exercise of Power;
• refers not only to social attitudes towards non-dominant ethnic and racial groups but also to social structures and actions which oppress, exclude, limit and discriminate against such individuals and groups. Such social attitudes originate in and rationalize discriminatory treatment;
• can be seen in discriminatory laws, residential segregation, poor health care, inferior education, unequal economic opportunity and the exclusion and distortion of the perspectives of non-dominant Canadians in cultural institutions. (Thomas, 1987);
• refers to “a system in which one group of people exercises power over another on the basis of skin colour; an implicit or explicit set of beliefs, erroneous assumptions, and actions based on an ideology of the inherent superiority of one racial group over another, and evident in organizational or institutional structures and programs as well as in individual thought or behaviour patterns (Henry & Tator, 2006, p. 352).

Racism=Racial Prejudice+Power

In our experience, the above definition elicits a number of comments, frequently revolving around specific incidents and sorting through whether or not a specific act constitutes "racial prejudice" or "racism.. Often, white people will want to argue that they too can be the victims of racism, or that a specific action was not racist (or even prejudiced) because it was not intended to be racist or prejudiced. Below are some questions/comments that can arise relating to Racism=Racial Prejudice+Power:

• "I've heard/been the target of stereotypes about white people isn't that reverse racism?
• "Can people of colour and Indigenous people be racist towards white people?"
• "I didn't know."
• "I didn't ‘mean' to be prejudiced/racist, therefore it isn't racism."
• "It was just a personal opinion."
• "I was just doing my job and following procedure."

It sort of goes against layman's definitions (and by that I mean dictionary definitions) of "racism" though, where mere racial prejudice or beliefs would also fall under it...

 

[sprinkles]

@bamf

I take everything back. As per this page, you were correct all along. It's a difference in how "racism", versus "racial prejudice" alone, are defined.



It sort of goes against layman's definitions (and by that I mean dictionary definitions) of "racism" though, where mere racial prejudice or beliefs would also fall under it...

I think that site is confusing, over complicating, and shouldn't be taken as an authority. This distinction is not useful and gets in the way like some kind of verbal/rhetorical caltrop.

This whole concept of "racism is not racial prejudice" is needless, inane, and maybe even harmful.

 

[bamf]

LOL no and you know it too. That is so way off what you actually said that you're just making stuff up now.

If you don't mean something then don't fricking say it.

Edit:
Moreover, your above statement is a non-truth anyway so you're STILL wrong. Nothing necessarily implies in your example that the attackers cannot be racist. It is logically a non-answer and doesn't follow. Just give it up.

The US is socially organized in a way that disadvantages non-whites, and as per my arguments, one cannot simply be racist without it being rooted in the institutionalized view of society. Blacks are systematically disadvantaged, whites are not. Therefor, as per definition, the horrible bigoted and prejudicial action is not racist. It follows.

 

[sprinkles]

The US is socially organized in a way that disadvantages non-whites, and as per my arguments, one cannot simply be racist without it being rooted in the institutionalized view of society. Blacks are systematically disadvantaged, whites are not. Therefor, as per definition, the horrible bigoted and prejudicial action is not racist. It follows.

How is this helpful and why is it important?

Seems to me like you've gotten in the way for a whole lot of nothing. The definition worked good enough the way it was and you're making a big to-do about some stupid words when the principle is so damn near the same.

You're part of the problem in my opinion.

 

[barbad0s]

This whole concept of "racism is not racial prejudice" is needless, inane, and maybe even harmful.

It kind of is a type of authority, though I suppose that's true as well. Downplaying the effects of racial prejudice or whatever on low rungs of power only serves to stimulate the kind of mentality in individuals which will allow the effects of institutionalized racism to proliferate.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1009]bamf[/MENTION]

Give me thumbs down I don't give a fuck.

 

[bamf]

How is this helpful and why is it important?

Seems to me like you've gotten in the way for a whole lot of nothing. The definition worked good enough the way it was and you're making a big to-do about some stupid words when the principle is so damn near the same.

You're part of the problem in my opinion.

Intentionally or unintentionally misusing terms that are incredibly important is a complete and total disservice to the people affected by them.

I recognize that your jab as labeling me part of the problem was a goad, but at the very least I can rest easy at night, knowing beyond a measure of doubt, that my career and the choices I make in my day-to-day life are positively combating the problem.

 

[sprinkles]

Intentionally or unintentionally misusing terms that are incredibly important is a complete and total disservice to the people affected by them.

I recognize that your jab as labeling me part of the problem was a goad, but at the very least I can rest easy at night, knowing beyond a measure of doubt, that my career and the choices I make in my day-to-day life are positively combating the problem.

It is not a goad. I think you are part of the problem and maybe you don't even know it. Now I suspect that you're even more part of the problem due to your self assured attitude.

I still posit that this idea is patently absurd and interfering and you're actively perpetuating it.

I do not think this term difference is important, I think it is contrived, I cannot see the purpose of this and all you have to do is look at responses to see how you have gotten in the way with this nonsense.

This is institutionalization and power in action. The layman does not agree with you, and you've also YET to present a reason why this is actually a useful distinction. When if you were to simply remove this absurd distinction and focus on the linchpin of prejudice itself then you would tackle the entire problem at once regardless.

Splitting it up like this only brings in discord and allows perpetrators to be more slippery in the fog.

 

[bamf]

It is not a goad. I think you are part of the problem and maybe you don't even know it. Now I suspect that you're even more part of the problem due to your self assured attitude.

I still posit that this idea is patently absurd and interfering and you're actively perpetuating it.

I do not think this term difference is important, I think it is contrived, I cannot see the purpose of this and all you have to do is look at responses to see how you have gotten in the way with this nonsense.

This is institutionalization and power in action. The layman does not agree with you, and you've also YET to present a reason why this is actually a useful distinction. When if you were to simply remove this absurd distinction and focus on the linchpin of prejudice itself then you would tackle the entire problem at once regardless.

Splitting it up like this only brings in discord and allows perpetrators to be more slippery in the fog.

And I think your ability to discredit the distinction between the two over a subject that deeply impacts individuals and groups as a whole is the problem this entire thread was created to fight against.

If you read the opening post, you would see how I am responding from the point of view you were arguing against, and thus, hardly getting in the way.

The layman (often times privileged and systematically advantaged) not understanding the difference is a problem. Splitting it up allows discussions on distinct actions possible.

 

[sprinkles]

And I think your ability to discredit the distinction between the two over a subject that deeply impacts individuals and groups as a whole is the problem this entire thread was created to fight against.

If you read the opening post, you would see how I am responding from the point of view you were arguing against, and thus, hardly getting in the way.

The layman (often times privileged and systematically advantaged) not understanding the difference is a problem. Splitting it up allows discussions on distinct actions possible.

Ok, put up and prove to me why it is useful or otherwise you've got nothing.

To me there IS no practical difference. It's like murder vs killing! Not even murder vs manslaughter.

I think it is fucking stupid when two sets of people could theoretically do the same things, with the same intent, with the same outcomes and only one of them is racist because of some power structure social nonsense.

To me that is retarded.

 

[bamf]

only one of them is racist because of some power structure social nonsense.

To me that is retarded.

Then I will never "prove" it to you. If you can't see that re-purposing the definition of words/actions that disenfranchise entire populations of people so that an individual who is already enabled can use the term to describe a similar yet different event due to the ever-present and real social structures is a very real problem that further disenfranchises the disenfranchised, I cannot possible say a single thing to persuade you.

Of course, you will then respond with the following, so let me do it for you: bamf, gtfo ur the problem and in the way.

 

[sprinkles]

Then I will never "prove" it to you. If you can't see that re-purposing the definition of words/actions and disenfranchise entire populations of people so that an individual who is already enabled can use the term to describe a similar yet different event due to the ever-present and real social structures is very real problem that further disenfranchises the disenfranchised, I cannot possible say a single thing to persuade you.

Of course, you will then respond with the following, so let me do it for you: bamf, gtfo ur the problem and in the way.

That is a really confusing mess there and I don't know what to say. Put a comma somewhere or something for crying out loud.

Changing the word doesn't stop people from doing whatever the heck you said though. I also find repurposing words to that end is rarely a good idea in the first place.

I THINK I understand what you're saying though, but this doesn't work. I mean Feminism. Just look at it. Look at the state of it. You think you can do better by taking back this word? It'll suddenly turn out right this time?

I think the fuck not.

 

[barbad0s]

@sprinkles

Basically it's just upsetting and dismissive of more serious issues by conflating one concept with the other, practical definition or not aside.

It's like imagine if you were part of a group of people who gets raped all day every day, their ancestors got raped all day every day, and society was set up in such a way where they would at least be raped sometimes no matter what they did in their futures. Then a member of another group where they and their ancestors never experienced being in this group (and where people associated with them were often the actual rapists), gets raped once and says "Hey guys omg! This is rape and horrible!" Yeah of course it is horrible, and it is rape, but it's not quite the same as systematic rape all day every day. If you were part of the raped-all-the-time group you'd be like "-___- okay, yeah it IS technically rape, but...."

 

[sprinkles]

@sprinkles

Basically it's just upsetting and dismissive of more serious issues by conflating one concept with the other, practical definition or not aside.

It's like imagine if you were part of a group of people who gets raped all day every day, their ancestors got raped all day every day, and society was set up in such a way where they would at least be raped sometimes no matter what they did in their futures. Then a member of another group where they and their ancestors never experienced being in this group (and where people associated with them were often the actual rapists), gets raped once and says "Hey guys omg! This is rape and horrible!" Yeah of course it is horrible, and it is rape, but it's not quite the same as systematic rape all day every day. If you were part of the raped-all-the-time group you'd be like "-___- okay, yeah it IS technically rape, but...."

Yeah I get that.

Actually I was just looking at honor killings in Turkey earlier and how the government made honor killing carry a life sentence, so now a phenomenon of honor suicide is on the rise. Families can't as easily kill their women anymore for tainting the family honor so now they simply lock them in a room with a gun or some rat poison until they commit suicide on their own.

Fact is it is not about what group has it worse. The base act is heinous and intolerable. Wipe out the base act wherever it lies and you don't have to worry about groups anymore.

I'm just saying that racism is racism/racial prejudice if you prefer regardless of the facts of which groups have experienced it more. It's wrong everywhere and should be tolerated nowhere.

 

[bamf]

That is a really confusing mess there and I don't know what to say. Put a comma somewhere or something for crying out loud.

Changing the word doesn't stop people from doing whatever the heck you said though. I also find repurposing words to that end is rarely a good idea in the first place.

I THINK I understand what you're saying though, but this doesn't work. I mean Feminism. Just look at it. Look at the state of it. You think you can do better by taking back this word? It'll suddenly turn out right this time?

I think the fuck not.

First off, I'm not the one re-purposing the word. That's the whole damn point. Secondly, feminism isn't a word to "take back." It was never "dirty" in the first place, and it's entirely besides the point. *ahem, derailing back to a previous argument we've had*

Also, there is no technical need for commas in the sentence, if you really want to get into that.

(and now I'm done, because this has turned into a pissing match, despite me not needing to pee)

 

[sprinkles]

First off, I'm not the one re-purposing the word. That's the whole damn point. Secondly, feminism isn't a word to "take back." It was never "dirty" in the first place, and it's entirely besides the point. *ahem, derailing back to a previous argument we've had*

Also, there is no technical need for commas in the sentence, if you really want to get into that.

(and now I'm done, because this has turned into a pissing match, despite me not needing to pee)

If you don't think feminism became a dirty word then there's a whole thread here about it to educate you otherwise.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1009]bamf[/MENTION]
A lot of this is misunderstanding. I take back a lot of what I said. I hope you forgive me.

These things vary from place to place and not everyone knows the problems and experiences of others. In light of private exchange I think you understand where I'm coming from a bit more.

I just do not want to see this backfire from a pragmatic standpoint like I already have. I also realize that my particular area of society was not the entire world and that maybe in your area in some way you have a point. I really don't know.

 

[bamf]

@bamf
A lot of this is misunderstanding. I take back a lot of what I said. I hope you forgive me.

These things vary from place to place and not everyone knows the problems and experiences of others. In light of private exchange I think you understand where I'm coming from a bit more.

I just do not want to see this backfire from a pragmatic standpoint like I already have. I also realize that my particular area of society was not the entire world and that maybe in your area in some way you have a point. I really don't know.

No hard feelings, and I hope you can forgive me as well. Shit sucks, and I think we both want to make it better, as different as approaches may be.

 

[YourHighness]

Lmao! "All white people are racist" REALLY? Good lord that is the most racist statement on this thread.
Either you made that statement as a joke or your neurons don't fire on all cylinders.
I'm betting it's the latter. I don't know whether to laugh or feel pity, if I had feelings... that is.

 

[slant]

Guys I'm gonna tell you a funny story about the last time I saw @slant in Tinychat.

Someone brought up the fact that I am part Asian, and slant protested furiously, saying, "No she isn't! She's white!"

LOL I'm not allowed to be what I am. So I told her that I am indeed half Chinese, and she ragequitted Tinychat. I have witnesses!

Anyway yeah that's the sort of person who made this thread. Not that I think the premise of this thread is too bad or that slant is dumb/bad, but she does have some funny ideas sometimes and ways of getting them across. Like just don't take everything word for word and super seriously. Honestly just don't worry about it.

I just want to quote this and say that, while I don't remember this incident because I have a notoriously bad memory, the fact that I did this is completely unacceptable, and an example of my white supremacy, colonialism tendencies. I can't even tell you what I must have been thinking when I said that, but what I will say now is I'm taking 100% responsibility for it and it was wrong, and I understand that the damage has been done and acknowledging it/apologizing for it isn't going to necessarily fix anything. But I think it's important to be accountable for. I'm wondering what time period this was? Obviously, you don't need to answer, but I have only recently been educating myself about these matters for the past year or so, and it would alarm me even more if I had said this recently, and didn't remember :/

Futhermore, I want to use this as an example of what I'm talking about here. I'm white, people. I went in tinychat and told niffer what her race was- a white person trying to define other people's races for them. Racism. Did I commit a hate crime against Niffer? no. Did I try to kill her or tell her she was inferior based on the color of her skin? No. Did I try to take control of her racial identity and dictate what she was/wasn't? Yes. And that's racism, and we all do it, all white people do it. Maybe you've not done this specific thing before, but there are soooo many examples.

"There is no race, we are all part of one race: the human race." <--- this is a common racist statement made by white people because it encourages white people to look at people as "all the same race" and ignore cultural, economic, and societal differences between them.

"You act so white!" <--- A statement implying that white culture is somehow superior to other races and that 'acting white' is even a thing, goes hand in hand by calling people "ghetto" and "acting black".

"Mexicans need to get out of our country, those damn illegals!" ....Actually, do you guys realize that America was never your country to begin with??? The country belongs to the indigenous people of the Americas, which by the way are not called "Indians", a name white people gave to indigenous people because they thought the Americas were India and literally thought the indigenous peoples of Americas were Indians. And despite the fact we know better, somehow hundreds of years later white people are still slipping up calling indigenous people, "Indians" when they are FUCKING NOT INDIANS.