8th Function

[Trifoilum]

Horribly sorry if there's another topic like this.

Despite our types using four functions, there are actually eight functions, so there's four that according to MBTI, would generally be undeveloped.

Now I'm talking solely about the 8th function. Last of the last. In a typical INXJ, it'd be Si. In a typical ESXP, Ne. In a typical IXFP, Ti. In a typical IXTP, Fi.

In jungian terms it'd be the Demon; Beebe on INFJ.com said this;

[SIZE=+1]Eighth position Demon/Daemon: introverted Sensing for the INFJ
What does this mean? "This is the most rejected aspect of personality, the source of evil in many people, and (more rarely) the deepest source of creative inspiration." In a nutshell, for INFJs this is the biggest, ugliest achilles heel of them all. It is the most deeply unconscious part of our personal unconscious. It may show up as a destructive creativity that seems to delight in destroying the old while only occasionally creating something new.[/SIZE]

What do you think about the 8th functions? How are you coping with them? And how do you think they manifested in (other) people?

 

[IndigoSensor]

Well for INFJ's following the classic order, our 8th function would be Si. For me, I do Si pretty well and I rather like it in other people who use it. It doesn't bug me all that much. It's Fi and Ti that bug me the most in the majority of cases. I can do Ti alright in some situations. Fi not really, I tend to just disregard it's use.

 

[88chaz88]

For me it's Ti, yet I've been testing as a Ti dominant type for so long it can't possibly be underdeveloped.

 

[Trifoilum]

[MENTION=387]IndigoSensor[/MENTION]; Hmm. I'd say it's because of your Fe AND Te reacting, perhaps rather badly to Fi, but I'd also say it's your Fi mirroring and projecting your shadow.

Sixth position Witch/Senex: introverted Feeling for the INFJ
What does this mean? This is the bad mother/father that criticizes, condemns, immobilizes, or demoralizes. It finds fault with everyone, making everyone seem like fakes or untrustworthy. It can be the basis of self-attacks commonly experienced in depression. This archetype is anti-life, since it cripples soul and spirit. The appearance of this function forces one to be creative, to outwit some challenge by finding a way around it.

btw; other meaning of 'senex' is Wise Old Man.

[MENTION=2495]88chaz88[/MENTION]; ....I just realized your MBTI type had changed.

 

[KazeCraven]

*shrugs* I don't devalue Fi at all. If anything, I'd say my Fe or Si is my achilles. I think after we get beyond the dominant and auxiliary, there's really no order of use like that.

 

[mooseman]

"Delight in destroying the old." Wow, that kind of resonates with me. I'm not sure exactly how or when I do it. Is that bad? I suppose it can be. I have to ponder this.

 

[Trifoilum]

A creepy thought creeped in.

Is there a possibility of we (or most of us, at least) not...being conscious of this, or how it manifests, or something related?

*thinking in Jungian shadow term*
Is it, perhaps, the deepest shadow in ourselves; so deep that we don't know it exists, or rather, falsely believed we had control in this?

oh, Gawd. I need more entry xO

 

[KazeCraven]

Well, I mean, if you hold onto the idea and try to make it fit, but it doesn't even when you are aware that some function X should be destructive, then the idea isn't very helpful regardless of whether you're still deluding yourself.

 

[Trifoilum]

Well, I mean, if you hold onto the idea and try to make it fit, but it doesn't even when you are aware that some function X should be destructive, then the idea isn't very helpful regardless of whether you're still deluding yourself.

So you're saying realization (or perhaps, awareness, or a false sense of awareness) alone isn't enough?

 

[KazeCraven]

Pretty much. If something is so well hidden that we can have something brought to our attention and still not see the problem, it's unlikely that further study of it will clear the issue up. For example, I can look at my Fi, which should be my demon function, but I'd have to stretch quite a lot of things (in the theory) to make all my destructive behavior fit under Fi.

Also, even in the definition there's a terrible amount of room for leeway. It can either manifest as this or this or that, and really when there's several other theorists who disagree and see the issue other ways, I'm not particularly interested in trying to get to the bottom of it. I mean, I guess people who understand people's cognitive functions really well might have a lot to say about the matter, but I think for most of us we're only guessing.

It's an interesting idea, but when I think about what my ESFP friend suffers from, or what my ENFJ friend struggles with, or my INTP brother, I can't really see any clear correlation. Actually, I take that back. I can see my brother having a little bit of a problem deciding what he actually wants, but then again I'm also supposed to be an INTP and I don't have the same problems.

 

[Quinlan]

I like Ti I just suck at it, I think INTPs and ISTPs are very clever and I mostly admire them.

 

[Phoenix Down]

I often fall up stairs
oh, and I fall down them too (luckily my ass tends to break the fall)

And there was this one time I pumped handsoap on my tooth brush and didn't notice until I put it in my mouth...

This points to a serious lack of Se.

 

[athenian200]

Well, there are only a few candidates for me. It can't be Ni, Ti, or Fe, obviously, because those are the functions I'm most comfortable with.

That leaves Se, Si, Te, Ne, and Fi.

I think that the ultimate shadow function for me, is probably Fi.

Si is irritating, but I see it as useful in many situations. I see no redeeming value in Fi, and see it as inherently self-destructive. Which probably means that it's my shadow.

Se is irritating, but I just see it as annoying because it lacks foresight and would cause you to do things you'd regret later. It isn't inherently self-destructive, though, and in some situations it's the only way to survive.

Fi... is just alien. It makes no sense to me, and seems like it can't be reasoned with. It's scary.

 

[BlinkandThink]

Can someone explain this more thoroughly? I'm having trouble understanding whether this function is meant to be:

• one you use least often
• one you don't value
• one you can only use negatively

Or something else I'm missing.


My answers to those would all be pretty different.

• I probably use Te least often, but I more or less value it (the way it points to external markers as if they mean something seems silly to me, but the rest of it is good ... it gets stuff done).

• Although I use it, I think I value Fe the least. But because I'm on an Fe-heavy website, I won't go further with explaining why. (how ironic!)

• One that I can only use negatively? Hmm ... define "negative"

Specifically ...

[SIZE=+1]the source of evil in many people[/SIZE]

^^^ What does this even mean??



AND: I can't even say there are any functions I don't value. I see the benefit of all of them. And they're all capable of driving me nuts.

 

[Bird]

A creepy thought creeped in.

Is there a possibility of we (or most of us, at least) not...being conscious of this, or how it manifests, or something related?

*thinking in Jungian shadow term*
Is it, perhaps, the deepest shadow in ourselves; so deep that we don't know it exists, or rather, falsely believed we had control in this?

oh, Gawd. I need more entry xO

You just blew my mind.

 

[DoveAlexa]

Si is suppose to be my last function, and it shows in my attempts to remember damn near anything outside of a school environment. I can remember numbers in the short and long term only because of grapheme but anything else like directions, names, what someone just said to me etc etc is really really tough unless I'm making a serious, concerted effort to remember. Even then, things slip between my fingers so easily. I can see how it would be a source of evil, since this is the function which notices change and upholds tradition the most, since I can't possibly be using it right when I am using it, I'd likely miss the spirit of a tradition and bitchily try to uphold my misinterpretation and force everyone else to go along with it. That if I really cared about tradition beyond themes used for decorating my house XD.

Other than that, I can't see how its the source of evil in me at least, just extreme ineptitude.

 

[Bird]

Si is suppose to be my last function, and it shows in my attempts to remember damn near anything outside of a school environment. I can remember numbers in the short and long term only because of grapheme but anything else like directions, names, what someone just said to me etc etc is really really tough unless I'm making a serious, concerted effort to remember. Even then, things slip between my fingers so easily. I can see how it would be a source of evil, since this is the function which notices change and upholds tradition the most, since I can't possibly be using it right when I am using it, I'd likely miss the spirit of a tradition and bitchily try to uphold my misinterpretation and force everyone else to go along with it. That if I really cared about tradition beyond themes used for decorating my house XD.

Other than that, I can't see how its the source of evil in me at least, just extreme ineptitude.

Agreed.

 

[Trifoilum]

Pretty much. If something is so well hidden that we can have something brought to our attention and still not see the problem, it's unlikely that further study of it will clear the issue up. For example, I can look at my Fi, which should be my demon function, but I'd have to stretch quite a lot of things (in the theory) to make all my destructive behavior fit under Fi.

Also, even in the definition there's a terrible amount of room for leeway. It can either manifest as this or this or that, and really when there's several other theorists who disagree and see the issue other ways, I'm not particularly interested in trying to get to the bottom of it. I mean, I guess people who understand people's cognitive functions really well might have a lot to say about the matter, but I think for most of us we're only guessing.

It's an interesting idea, but when I think about what my ESFP friend suffers from, or what my ENFJ friend struggles with, or my INTP brother, I can't really see any clear correlation. Actually, I take that back. I can see my brother having a little bit of a problem deciding what he actually wants, but then again I'm also supposed to be an INTP and I don't have the same problems.

Hmmmmmmm.... You do have a point there. I think further study would only create something....jumbled, if not completely lost. I'm thinking that's exactly the reason with the looseness of the definition.

I guess it's best to put an awareness of it first?

@BlinkandThink; I'd say it has bits of all of them, only I don't really think that it can only be used negatively. Rather people prone to use it negatively because it tends to either ; lacking of experience / skill needed to use it well, manifests during times of stress, and goes against our initial values.

I tend to think of it in RPG terms as a weapon we have the least proficiency in, hence we're prone to error.

As for the source of evil, I would say it has bits of projection hidden; in a negative mirroring kind of way; what WE perceived as 'evil' >> then we let it out to the outside world?
[MENTION=2926]Bird[/MENTION]; why?