The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.
I have no intention of challenging this. However, I would like to see a death certificate, by a licensed doctor. My suspicion of course, is that he didn't really die on the cross, as all of the texts suggest, but that perhaps they took him down, assumed he was dead, put him into a tomb and then he woke up three days later and crawled out of his tomb.

I also have my suspicions about a "virgin birth." And healing lepers and blind men.

These days we have televangelists "healing people" on TV and collecting million$ in donations and they need a private Lear jet so they can fly around and "do God's work."

I'm also suspicious about feeding 5,000 people with two fish and a loaf of bread. And then having a bunch of leftovers. My suspicion here is that people brought food with them. They knew he was coming, and was going to preach, and they came prepared.
 
Yes, it was too extreme.

I will not do that again,

in the face of it I just cannot accept sometimes that people think things about me and others that are not true but I can accept that I should not be so extreme even if I disagree. People can think what they want, I could be wrong they could be wrong but I should not do bad behaviors. I am sorry about this an all else.
Okay sweetie, you may have to go home, put on your suit of armor, and then come back and join the battle.

All of which I find somewhat hilarious.

Okay, just a little bit hilarious - I have to be polite, here.
 
I have no intention of challenging this. However, I would like to see a death certificate, by a licensed doctor. My suspicion of course, is that he didn't really die on the cross, as all of the texts suggest, but that perhaps they took him down, assumed he was dead, put him into a tomb and then he woke up three days later and crawled out of his tomb.

I guess Caesar didn't die on the Ides of March, given the evidence for both is comparable... I jest, but seriously, the fact that Christ died by crucifixion is one of the most attested facts in all of antiquity. No scholars worth anything at all go with the swoon theory (what this theory is called).

You would have to explain how the blood in the chest cavity was mixed with water and came out of him when he was stabbed with a spear. What this means (this is a claim virtually zero specialist scholars dispute), is that the blood in Jesus' chest cavity had been "pooling" for some time. In other words, there was zero blood flow at the time he was stabbed with a spear. Also, the Romans knew what they were doing when they did crucifixion. People did not survive crucifixion because if they did, then the soldiers responsible for the crucifixion would be crucified themselves, and I shouldn't need to explain why that would be... undesirable. Josephus talks about three of his colleagues who were crucified but were taken down from the cross when they were still alive... two of them died.

Also to note is that it was a feast day for the Jews, and it was considered not Kosher for people to be on the cross during that time. So, the Romans took the people on the cross down for the feast. The thing is, they broke the legs of the other two thieves who were on either side of Jesus to hasten their deaths by preventing them from pushing up with their legs to breathe. And they did not break Jesus legs cuz he was already clearly dead. And again, the Romans would not have risked Jesus being alive because then they would be on the chopping block (but... much, much worse than a chopping block, just so we are clear).

Last thing to consider here is even if Jesus somehow survived crucifixion and revived three days later, the Disciples would not think to themselves... "Oh, joy, our savior is risen from the dead!" Rather, they would think, "Let's get him patched up and keep him away from the Romans and religious authorities." There would be no myth that Christ rose from the dead if he somehow managed to survive crucifixion, because he would have been in such bad shape he would have been a liability rather than a miraculous savior who rose from the dead. And, let's be honest, people are not THAT dumb to believe that when Jesus is in such rough shape, that he can't really even walk, let alone lead a revolt against the Romans.

I also have my suspicions about a "virgin birth." And healing lepers and blind men.

Personally, I believe if God can create the universe from nothing, then any miracles that happen within the universe are pretty elementary to God. We have many documented miracles. I'd be happy to share a few with you for you to consider if you want.

These days we have televangelists "healing people" on TV and collecting million$ in donations and they need a private Lear jet so they can fly around and "do God's work."

Those people are charlatans who prey on the weak and the gullible. They are despicable people, and they don't have any power. 99% of them, at least. Real miracles rarely make television, but that doesn't mean they don't happen, and some miracles are actually caught on camera/voice.

I'm also suspicious about feeding 5,000 people with two fish and a loaf of bread. And then having a bunch of leftovers. My suspicion here is that people brought food with them. They knew he was coming, and was going to preach, and they came prepared.

We are not debating the miracles in the Bible, but we can debate if miracles happen at all.
 
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I do not understand the point of this thread given John 20:29
 
In my personal opinion, which can be subject to change, asking for proof of something (whether it exists or not) in a faith-based religion sounds a bit too much.

All major scholars (Christian, Jewish, secular, atheist, and professional historians of every stripe) agree on the basic historical facts around the Resurrection: Jesus was crucified, His followers were convinced they saw Him alive afterward, the empty‑tomb reports started very early, and the movement took off immediately in the same city where He was executed. Historians, by discipline, don’t declare miracles, but they do agree on those events. The debate is about how to explain them, not whether they happened.
 
Hi, What is the goal of this post? Is it to disprove Christianity? Why look for facts and evidence about JESUS CHRIST? Doesn't that defeat the whole idea of JESUS? Because FAITH is believing without evidence. If you honestly ask GOD for faith, or for HIM to show you that HE is real, you may get a lot further than searching for physical evidence. :)
 
Hi, What is the goal of this post? Is it to disprove Christianity? Why look for facts and evidence about JESUS CHRIST? Doesn't that defeat the whole idea of JESUS? Because FAITH is believing without evidence.

I am outsider to the Faith, but I have followed this thread. I thought I would bring to light for you—since you have entered the conversation—that this is what I think the original post was about and not a rejection of the central role of faith in Christianity (please correct me if I wrong @QuickTwist):

Christian apologetics is the intellectual and rational defense of the Christian faith. Derived from the Greek word apologia (meaning a formal defense or "giving an answer"), it aims to remove intellectual obstacles for skeptics, provide assurance to believers, and answer common objections to Christian doctrine. [In this case, the resurection]

So, to be more plain—the point of the thread was closer to the opposite of what you were thinking it might be.

Again, welcome to the forum @AngelCakes.

PS—the sensibility you are describing resonated with me deeply with me when I identified as Christian in my youth. That always seemed to me as a central teaching of Bible—the New Testament specifically.
 
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Hi, What is the goal of this post? Is it to disprove Christianity? Why look for facts and evidence about JESUS CHRIST? Doesn't that defeat the whole idea of JESUS?
All religions have their stories, but in most cases the validity of that religion doesn't rest on the historicity of their stories. A Dineh (Navajo) can participate in traditions and sings without taking the Hero Twins as historical fact.

But Christianity seems to have a unique dependence on the historicity of Jesus' death and resurrection. The whole point of Christianity is to obtain eternal life, and this is dependent on Jesus being the sacrifice for their sins.

@AngelCakes in your thinking, is there a way for you to be a Christian while NOT believing in the resurrection? I'm not here to challenge your beliefs. I just want to understand them better.
Because FAITH is believing without evidence.
This is one of Paul's most unfortunate remarks. A Muslim has faith that Gabriel spoke to Muhammed. A Hindu has faith in karma. A Branch Davidian had faith that David Koresh was the Messiah. A person who attended Jim Jones' People's Temple... You're getting the idea. Faith is not evidence of anything.
If you honestly ask GOD for faith, or for HIM to show you that HE is real, you may get a lot further than searching for physical evidence. :)
I've talked to atheists who have done this, and they get nothing. When you make a promise like this, and then it doesn't deliver, what have you done? What have you done?
 
All religions have their stories, but in most cases the validity of that religion doesn't rest on the historicity of their stories. A Dineh (Navajo) can participate in traditions and sings without taking the Hero Twins as historical fact.

But Christianity seems to have a unique dependence on the historicity of Jesus' death and resurrection. The whole point of Christianity is to obtain eternal life, and this is dependent on Jesus being the sacrifice for their sins.

@AngelCakes in your thinking, is there a way for you to be a Christian while NOT believing in the resurrection? I'm not here to challenge your beliefs. I just want to understand them better.

This is one of Paul's most unfortunate remarks. A Muslim has faith that Gabriel spoke to Muhammed. A Hindu has faith in karma. A Branch Davidian had faith that David Koresh was the Messiah. A person who attended Jim Jones' People's Temple... You're getting the idea. Faith is not evidence of anything.

I've talked to atheists who have done this, and they get nothing. When you make a promise like this, and then it doesn't deliver, what have you done? What have you done?

Thank you for this, meowzician. 🙂 I skimmed through the thread, and this is one of the best posts I have found... From all of the 28 pages.
 
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