If there is one true religion... | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

If there is one true religion...

Indeed
 
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I confess that I believe Jesus is the Christ, and the Son of the Living God. That means there is but one true religion, to me. I am responsible to accept that and to acknowledge that. I can wish, pray, try to find the right words, share videos, and everything else to share that with others. I have come to the understanding only God can have all people believe in one religion. I see clearly that may not happen by any of my doing. I do love reading the Bible. It is much larger than the book it is written in to me. I can only wonder if this world will be here much longer for us, or us much longer for it.
 
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religion, faith spirituality are all different things. and none of it will be found in logic. it is not logical to believe in something. God, Allah, Yaweh, Buddha, the Goddess, Earth Mother. . all the same thing, seen through the eyes of different cultures and peoples. all the holy books in the world. . are just that, books. Books written by people, decided by committee. God is not an author. what we seek is found on the mountain top. there are many paths to that peak, and all are equally valid and equally true. None is better or more true than any other, that is man's arrogance.

I'm afraid that if we accept your premise, we are effectively annihilating the possibility of any intelligent discussion about religion.
 
How is God merciful if those who defy his rules deserve to endure everlasting punishment?
Oh nice question over there, why would god create people then mention hell to them if his mercy surpasses everything?
Just like i told Vendrah about how islam uses logic and science to prove its consistency with the current era, god does use these signs to guide people to him and to believe in him so they can go to heaven.
The fact he mentions how he will torture them in the Hell fire is mercy from him as well, as you know when people are still small like children, they take either approaches when someone tells them to do something: 1- he will obey and do it
2- He ll refuse or ignore it
So when god mentions hell and tell his servants how his punishment is severe, he does want them to see what it looks like when they fear his threat and choose to obey his commandments so they can all go to heaven.
It just depends on how you choose to see it.
 
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I'm afraid that if we accept your premise, we are effectively annihilating the possibility of any intelligent discussion about religion.

I suppose, at a certain point, there's a decision to be made there. Are you more interested in discussing God or discovering God?

One of my favourite books, The Great Divorce, has this paragraph (amongst several others) that I like a lot:

“There have been men before … who got so interested in proving the existence of God that they came to care nothing for God himself… as if the good Lord had nothing to do but to exist. There have been some who were so preoccupied with spreading Christianity that they never gave a thought to Christ.”
 
I suppose, at a certain point, there's a decision to be made there. Are you more interested in discussing God or discovering God?

I am interested in both, and I don't necessarily think those two pursuits are incompatible. What makes you think that they are?

One of my favourite books, The Great Divorce, has this paragraph (amongst several others) that I like a lot:

“There have been men before … who got so interested in proving the existence of God that they came to care nothing for God himself… as if the good Lord had nothing to do but to exist. There have been some who were so preoccupied with spreading Christianity that they never gave a thought to Christ.”

This is a great quote, and has definitely some truth in it. However, I also think there have been lots of theologians who asked philosophical questions about God while remaining genuine believers. I agree that there is a certain vacuousness in trying to prove the existence of God logically. But what I'm simply asking—and I don't think this is a lot to ask—is that the 'truths' of religion be not logically contradictory. Because if that's the case, then anything goes.
 
Just like i told Vendrah about how islam uses logic and science to prove its consistency with the current era, god does use these signs to guide people to him and to believe in him so they can go to heaven.
The fact he mentions how he will torture them in the Hell fire is mercy from him as well, as you know when people are still small like children, they take either approaches when someone tells them to do something: 1- he will obey and do it
2- He ll refuse or ignore it
So when god mentions hell and tell his servants how his punishment is severe, he does want them to see what it looks like when they fear his threat and choose to obey his commandments so they can all go to heaven.
It just depends on how you choose to see it.

I understand. But is it possible to go to heaven after having endured hell for a very long time? And if not, why?

I should think it merciful if there was a possibility of salvation even after hell.
 
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I understand. But is it possible to go to heaven after having endured hell for a very long time? And if not, why?

I should think it merciful if there was a possibility of salvation even after hell.
Yes, but not for everyone, islam says that Hell people will be divided in two, the first ones are those who mixed good and bad deeds, but maybe their bad deeds overweighted their good ones, those will be in hell for a specified term that Allah wills, after that time ends, they will be brought to heaven and live in it eternally.

The 2nd ones are those who totally rejected the verses of allah and choosed to disbelieve in him after what they saw, their punishment will be eternity in hell fire.


If a person while living never heard of islam nor one of its prophets and really didn't get to see the signs which allah gave to him himself, then he won't go to Hell fire immediately, instead, allah will test him in away he finds suitable on the day of judgement then he will either go to heaven or hell.


Just and fair.
 
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The 2nd ones are those who totally rejected the verses of allah and choosed to disbelieve in him after what they saw, their punishment will be eternity in hell fire.

This always bothered me with Islam, why does the religion take priority in the words of Allah above the actions of those devoted to Allah. There is no higher justification to one's actions to others by speaking these word of Allah.
This is in contradiction to the what this religion is about.

You follow the scripture, you do good to others through these scriptures and you are judged based on that.
 
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This always bothered me with Islam, why does the religion take priority in the words of Allah above the actions of those devoted to Allah. There is no higher justification to one's actions to others by speaking these word of Allah.
This is in contradiction to the what this religion is about.

You follow the scripture, you do good to others through these scriptures and you are judged based on that.
If you want to know about a religon do not look at its followers, look at what the religon/god says in their books,
This always bothered me with Islam, why does the religion take priority in the words of Allah above the actions of those devoted to Allah. There is no higher justification to one's actions to others by speaking these word of Allah.
This is in contradiction to the what this religion is about.

You follow the scripture, you do good to others through these scriptures and you are judged based on that.
If you want to know about a religon do not look at its followers, look at what the religon/god says in their books.
Many Christians eat pork today when it's mentioned in the bible that it's against the teachings of Jesus(peace be upon him) so it is something natural to follow the god rather than the people, as i mentioned earlier in one of my replies,
Let's assume that there is new machine which you found in the road, this machine no one really knows how it works or how it is used for, who will you go to to know its mechanism?
Probably you will say the inventor, the scientist behind it or the creator, whatever you call him it indicates that he only knows how this will function.
In the same way when we were born and given the opportunity to live, it isn't just to achieve dreams or enjoy it, i mean there are those who are born blind and can't move as well, is it fair for them as well ?

So when god created us he as well give us the quran, in which he clearly showed the Purpose of life (its mechanism),
The right and wrong, the good deeds in which we all shall have, not through mere claim, but also supported by reason and evidence.

So it's logical claim to prioritize what the creator says over his creation.
 
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Many Christians eat pork today when it's mentioned in the bible that it's against the teachings of Jesus(peace be upon him) so it is something natural to follow the god rather than the people, as i mentioned earlier in one of my replies,
This part is actually a good point towards these scriptures, the reason why pork has been forbidden was for the sake of the community. People died because of bad or uncooked pig meat. Thus it is for the benefit of the people to abstain from pig meat, thus this was indicated as law within the holy texts.

https://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/ask-ali-why-pork-is-forbidden-for-muslims-1.444442
https://www.whyislam.org/faqs/restrictions-in-islam/why-do-muslims-abstain-from-pork/

Pork is not dirty but rather regarded as impure, unhealthy and harmful for humans due to the fats, toxins and bacteria it contains and the way the pig spends its life rolling around in mud and its own excrement. The specific aspect that pork is unhealthy has even been proven by scientists, such as Hans-Heinrich Reckeweg, who argued that western populations who eat pork carry more diseases than other populations who do not eat pork.

So when god created us he as well give us the quran, in which he clearly showed the Purpose of life (its mechanism),
The right and wrong, the good deeds in which we all shall have, not through mere claim, but also supported by reason and evidence.

And I'm not looking at the followers nor practioners of the Quran, I'm looking at the implication you were stating in regards to hell. That actions could be redeemed by following or spreading the word of the Quran, rather than following the context of what the Quran is proposing by example. This is not the purpose of such scriptures. The same can be said with Christianity where sins could be forgiven by admitting them to the church or the Wailing Walls to atone for their sins. When a person commits a sin; this is written into their soul. You cannot just decommit this sin by pushing it to a higher purpose. That's what bothers me with any of the Abrahmic religions.
 
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This part is actually a good point towards these scriptures, the reason why pork has been forbidden was for the sake of the community. People died because of bad or uncooked pig meat. Thus it is for the benefit of the people to abstain from pig meat, thus this was indicated as law within the holy texts.

https://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/ask-ali-why-pork-is-forbidden-for-muslims-1.444442
https://www.whyislam.org/faqs/restrictions-in-islam/why-do-muslims-abstain-from-pork/



So when god created us he as well give us the quran, in which he clearly showed the Purpose of life (its mechanism),
The right and wrong, the good deeds in which we all shall have, not through mere claim, but also supported by reason and evidence.


And I'm not looking at the followers nor practioners of the Quran, I'm looking at the implication you were stating in regards to hell. That actions could be redeemed by following or spreading the word of the Quran, rather than following the context of what the Quran is proposing by example. This is not the purpose of such scriptures. The same can be said with Christianity where sins could be forgiven by admitting them to the church or the Wailing Walls to atone for their sins. When a person commits a sin; this is written into their soul. You cannot just decommit this sin by pushing it to a higher purpose. That's what bothers me with any of the Abrahmic religions.
Good point that you made as well, thanks for clarifying, you know, the criteria for going to heaven or being saved from hell is not limited on being Muslim or spreading the word of islam,
The quran says in Surah Al-asr: By the declining day, (1) Lo! man is a state of loss, (2) Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to endurance. (3)


It says that there are four criteria for going to heaven:
1- faith in allah
2- good deeds
3- exhorting one another to what is right and truth
4- exhorting one another to patience


What does islam mean?
A person who submits his will to Allah and accepts that Mohamed is true and last messenger of allah.

A person can be a Muslim(fulfilling 1st conditon) and still go to hell if he doesn't do any good deeds.

A person who is non-muslim can do the 2nd and 4th one but it still won't be enough to go to heaven.

Only when the four options are met then does a person go to heaven.


In islam, the good and bad deeds are not anywhere equal, if i tried to put this into numerical terms to make its understanding easier, when a person does one good deed he gets 1mark then it it multiplied by 1×10 and it then it is again multiplied by 10×10 then allah does multiply it more and more for whoever he want the way he want a mercy from him.
When one does a bad deed it is limited on 1×1, and over that, he makes the good deeds wash away your bad deeds until you are clear of sins, that's how merciful he is.

A sin for sure can't be vanished from the history but it does vanish from your journal when you ask the creator himself for repentance.
 
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Yes, but not for everyone, islam says that Hell people will be divided in two, the first ones are those who mixed good and bad deeds, but maybe their bad deeds overweighted their good ones, those will be in hell for a specified term that Allah wills, after that time ends, they will be brought to heaven and live in it eternally.

The 2nd ones are those who totally rejected the verses of allah and choosed to disbelieve in him after what they saw, their punishment will be eternity in hell fire.

If a person while living never heard of islam nor one of its prophets and really didn't get to see the signs which allah gave to him himself, then he won't go to Hell fire immediately, instead, allah will test him in away he finds suitable on the day of judgement then he will either go to heaven or hell.

Just and fair.

Is eternity in hell fire just and fair, though?

Why condemn anyone to a punishment that is everlasting if their 'fault' was committed within a finite span of time, i.e. terrestrial time?

The punishment seems disproportionate and therefore unfair.
 
Is eternity in hell fire just and fair, though?

Why condemn anyone to a punishment that is everlasting if their 'fault' was committed within a finite span of time, i.e. terrestrial time?

The punishment seems disproportionate and
When god gives us a life chance to go and follow the right path which was instructed for us and tells us that our sins will be cleared as well as long as we go back to him,
When he tells us that punishment will be severe, just go back to me my servants and i promise you the ever lasting heaven and joy, he did pour mercy over us from head to toe and yet it's we who choosed to close our eyes from the truth,
Is eternity in hell fire just and fair, though?

Why condemn anyone to a punishment that is everlasting if their 'fault' was committed within a finite span of time, i.e. terrestrial time?

The punishment seems disproportionate and therefore unfair.
When god gives us a life time chance to go and follow the right path which was instructed for us and tells us that our sins will be cleared as well as long as we go back to him,
When he tells us that punishment will be severe, just go back to me my servants and i promise you the ever lasting heaven and joy, he did pour mercy over us from head to toe and yet it's we who choosed to close our eyes from the truth, it's we who choosed hell intentionally.
 
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What is eternity in hell fire? It is the absence of God. Regular fire, as we know it, would burn something up almost immediately. What is wrong with sending someone into a place they already desire? The fact they will then know. There shall be weeping, and gnashing of teeth. To be in the presence of an archangel that turned against God is just.
 
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Some cool trivia

Lucifer (UK: /ˈluːsɪfər/ LOO-si-fər; US: /-sə-/; 'light-bringer', corresponding to the Greek name Ἑωσφόρος, 'dawn-bringer', for the same planet) is a Latin name for the planet Venus in its morning appearances and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer, and its associated stories of a fall from heaven, to Satan. Most modern scholarship regards these interpretations as questionable[citation needed] and translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name "Lucifer".[1]

As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל‎ (transliteration: hêylêl; pronunciation: hay-lale)[2] in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[3] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[4][5] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[6]

As a name for the planet in its morning aspect, "Lucifer" (Light-Bringer) is a proper name and is capitalized in English. In Greco-Roman civilization, it was often personified and considered a god[7] and in some versions considered a son of Aurora (the Dawn).[8] A similar name used by the Roman poet Catullus for the planet in its evening aspect is "Noctifer" (Night-Bringer).[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
 
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The pattern of threating my next life if I dont listen to you is still there as well (thats the classic "listen me or go to hell"). And by you, Im not really meaning you, Im meaning the religion itself.

my regret when i find out my religon is wrong won't be less than your regret when you find out it was true.

The great question is: what have we prepared for our death? The day when neither our wealth nor our families will be there to lighten our grave. Are you willing to risk the afterlife with what you know or what you think you know?
Have we really given the effort to figure out what was right to do? Or we choosed to close our eyes from all the signs god gave to us ?
The classic follow me or die shall be convincing afterall.

god does use these signs to guide people to him and to believe in him so they can go to heaven.
The fact he mentions how he will torture them in the Hell fire is mercy from him as well, as you know when people are still small like children, they take either approaches when someone tells them to do something: 1- he will obey and do it
2- He ll refuse or ignore it
So when god mentions hell and tell his servants how his punishment is severe, he does want them to see what it looks like when they fear his threat and choose to obey his commandments so they can all go to heaven.

It says that there are four criteria for going to heaven:
1- faith in allah

Only when the four options are met then does a person go to heaven.

Thats the problem.
 
When god gives us a life time chance to go and follow the right path which was instructed for us and tells us that our sins will be cleared as well as long as we go back to him,
When he tells us that punishment will be severe, just go back to me my servants and i promise you the ever lasting heaven and joy, he did pour mercy over us from head to toe and yet it's we who choosed to close our eyes from the truth, it's we who choosed hell intentionally.

I do not personally believe that this is merciful, but I understand that it would be from the perspective of a believer.