Your views on CHRISTMAS | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Your views on CHRISTMAS

SpecialEdition said:
I feel nothing about the people in my life that have died. I have been surrounded by death since a young age so I don't think I grieve about it or feel about it in the way that most people might. To me it's just kind of a fact of life that people are going to die and as a result sometimes you don't have a family to gather with anymore.

I find some of the typical celebrations to be very empty.

My boyfriend's family is big on getting together for holidays like this. They are having a celebration on Christmas Eve that I am attending. I like going not just because it is Christmas but because I like being around a family that is close and enjoys being together and who has a lot of fun. It's interesting to see so many people come together just to be amongst one another. It's foreign to me but it also gives me the opportunity to integrate better into his family by going, even if I am not into the holiday specifically. I like to participate in that but do feel like an outsider looking in.

I don't think you have to suspend reality necessarily. I think it's perhaps suspending your knowledge of the motivation for getting together (gifts/money) and perhaps enjoying the time together for what it is. I do find that some people bring too much in the way of politics/religion into the mix and it doesn't really mix well with the commercialization of it, but so it goes.
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Well thats logical and rational. I am familiar with that way of thinking. I cant say that I do not feel anything for the people that were in my life who are no longer here. I live my life but losing people leaves holes. I find myself hoping I dont have to be around for losing much more.

I have a cold realistic look at life where I did not in my earlier years. I could easily subscribe to the way you state you look at it and do the majority if the time. But it gets old and there is so little motivation to be found in it. If life is so dull and cold why get ouf of bed every morning just so that you can suffer through it?
Part of me wants that child back who can believe that good things happen to good people etc.... I think this is my conflict.

As for you, I hope you find happiness. You may say you already have it but regardless I hope you find more. Going through life numb or lacking feeling sucks. At least I think it does.
 
I guess nothing is superficial when you disregard everything that is superficial about it just to make it nice.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Christmas is great. Its the one time of year where we can say, see everything is better, the worlds really not so bad after all.

If people really believed whats preached about at Christmas "good will toward man" the world would be a much different place.
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If you have to use "if" then what you're describing is hitherto merely a dream, isn't it?

If the world would be a different place if people believed that, then that means they currently don't believe it.

To me an idea doesn't count until it is actually implemented. I'm not particularly upset about it either, I just feel that's how it is - all talk and very little actual change.
 
Also if we love Christmas as a respite from how horrible things are, then that's just a whole other can of existential worms.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Well thats logical and rational. I am familiar with that way of thinking. I cant say that I do not feel anything for the people that were in my life who are no longer here. I live my life but losing people leaves holes. I find myself hoping I dont have to be around for losing much more.

I have a cold realistic look at life where I did not in my earlier years. I could easily subscribe to the way you state you look at it and do the majority if the time. But it gets old and there is so little motivation to be found in it. If life is so dull and cold why get ouf of bed every morning just so that you can suffer through it?
Part of me wants that child back who can believe that good things happen to good people etc.... I think this is my conflict.

As for you, I hope you find happiness. You may say you already have it but regardless I hope you find more. Going through life numb or lacking feeling sucks. At least I think it does.
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You're projecting something into my post that isn't there and I don't know why that is.

There is nothing cold and dull about my life and my world. Just because I don't feel anything about many people I know who have died does not speak to how I feel about life as a whole or my own life.

I am not numb or lacking feeling and I am happy.
 
sprinkles said:
Christmas sans people is merely an idea and mere ideas are of course inert.

So I take it back. Christmas is not superficial - people are.
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Well sure, in a general sense, there are many superficial people in the world. Not all, but many.
But superficiality wasn't what you were originally referring to. I responded to your comment:

"It's good if you think people are good and it isn't if you think they aren't.”

So did you mean that it's good if you think people aren't superficial and it isn't if you think they are?

If so, I would still disagree. As mentioned above, I believe some people can be superficial, but that isn't going to stop me from liking the holidays. I don't concern myself with the way others choose to present themselves during this time, whether I feel they are they are being fictitious or not. Why would I even consider letting it affect the way I feel? If people want to paint on a smile one time a year and play pretend, that's their call. And not to mention, putting out good vibes (whether we think they are real or not) can be contagious, and in turn, create real happiness in others.

Therefore, if something positive and real can come from it, then I see no harm in letting people do their thing. I can't hold the attitude of "look at these superficial people spreading their superficial cheer, buying their superficial gifts...ehh! F*ck Christmas! They ruined everything!" Not at all. That's how people go from loving Christmas to hating it. They let outside influences affect something that was once good for them. I don't get that.
 
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SpecialEdition said:
I think Christmas is kind of fucked up.

The mall near my house requires police officers to block off certain lane ways and to direct traffic in and out of the parking lots because it gets so busy. There is something about thousands and thousands of people trying to cram into a shopping center in a panic to shop for other people that is kind of disturbing to me.

My family hasn't done much to "celebrate" Christmas since I was a teenager. A substantial part of my family died before I was born or in my younger years so we never had big family gatherings. Not for a very long time. I haven't given presents since I was a teen. One year I spent 300 dollars on Christmas gifts when I was in high school and I had this sort of epiphany that it was kind of fucked up to be doing that, so I just stopped altogether. This year my parents are now legally separated and even more people are dead. I bought "presents" in the sense that I gave practical gifts as my parents start new lives individually. I sent money for my sister as she now has a child of her own and felt compelled to indulge in Christmas for them. Even then, I am a very practical gift giver.

The commercialization of it escapes me but I haven't had television in nearly a decade. I am not exposed to commercials or Christmas movies or other "specials" that you might find on TV. I think for this reason I don't find it stressful now and I don't feel the expectations that some might to participate in Christmas like things. I think giving to people is nice, but I don't like all of the frenzy about it.
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I'm also a huge fan of giving practical gifts. And they are well thought out.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
Well sure, in a general sense, there are many superficial people in the world. Not all, but many.
But superficiality wasn't what you were originally referring to. I responded to your comment:

"It's good if you think people are good and it isn't if you think they aren't.”

So did you mean that it's good if you think people aren't superficial and it isn't if you think they are?

If so, I would still disagree. As mentioned above, I believe some people can be superficial, but that isn't going to stop me from liking the holidays. I don't concern myself with the way others choose to present themselves during this time, whether I feel they are they are being fictitious or not. Why would I even consider letting it affect the way I feel? If people want to paint on a smile one time a year and play pretend, that's their call. And not to mention, putting out good vibes (whether we think they are real or not) can be contagious, and in turn, create real happiness in others.

Therefore, if something positive and real can come from it, then I see no harm in letting people do their thing. I can't hold the attitude of "look at these superficial people spreading their superficial cheer, buying their superficial gifts...ehh! F*ck Christmas! They ruined everything!" Not at all. That's how people go from loving Christmas to hating it. They let outside influences affect something that was once good for them. I don't get that.
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Fictitious and superficial are not the same thing.

I've had more cases than not where family members DID ruin things because everyone was not meeting their expectations of a stereotypical perfect Christmas and actually having them fucking CRY because the garland isn't right and then cry some more because people are now reluctant to help for fear of upsetting them any further then YES that does kind of ruin things and make it worse than not having Christmas at all.
 
Moreover Christmas was never really good to me. Actually the fucking worst family fights all year usually happened around Christmas, if not Thanksgiving. It's so lovely to listen to people yell at each other about some fucking pies or some shit.

When I was very little, my grandparents would buy me SO MANY presents that I'd get tired of opening them and would want to play with just one of them, or stop with what I had, but they'd take stuff away to get me to open MORE presents and I would cry and then they'd be upset at me.

I wasn't raised with a good image of Christmas.
 
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sprinkles said:
Fictitious and superficial are not the same thing.

I've had more cases than not where family members DID ruin things because everyone was not meeting their expectations of a stereotypical perfect Christmas and actually having them fucking CRY because the garland isn't right and then cry some more because people are now reluctant to help for fear of upsetting them any further then YES that does kind of ruin things and make it worse than not having Christmas at all.
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Fictitious-imaginary, not real. Made up. Superficial-appears to be real on surface until you take a closer look. So in other words, not real, made up. I see them as being similar.

That sucks. Yes, I have had Christmas' like that with my family also. There is always one asshole or two that will trying and ruin it for everyone. I don't think anything is ever perfect. Was it ever good for you?
 
SpecialEdition said:
You're projecting something into my post that isn't there and I don't know why that is.

There is nothing cold and dull about my life and my world. Just because I don't feel anything about many people I know who have died does not speak to how I feel about life as a whole or my own life.

I am not numb or lacking feeling and I am happy.
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Describing myself and my view. Your posts reflect my view of the world in great part so I assume this is also in parallel to some extent. I am wrong though so sorry for making the connection.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
Fictitious-imaginary, not real. Made up. Superficial-appears to be real on surface until you take a closer look. So in other words, not real, made up. I see them as being similar.

That sucks. Yes, I have had Christmas' like that with my family also. There is always one asshole or two that will trying and ruin it for everyone. I don't think anything is ever perfect. Was it ever good for you?
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I don't think it was ever good. This is the time of year where I randomly burst into tears for no particular reason at all just because my heart is heavy with deep rooted subconscious memories.
 
I like Christmas. Good food. Good Friends. Spending time with family. Thoughtful presents. Surprises. The general aesthetic of glittery-sparkly things. Sure, the over-commercialized chaos bothers me but honestly, what in this day and age that isn't commercialized? As I write this, I'm seeing two ads blinking at the bottom of my screen. I wouldn't have even noticed them if I wasn't talking about commercialization just now. If we can close our eyes to the fact that we're bombarded by advertisements and billboards and superficiality every day of the year, I don't see why it's such a shock when Christmas rolls around. If anything, the holidays just give it a sharper picture. Wake up, Rip Van Winkle. This is exactly what has been happening the other ten months of the year. There's no 'Cynic of the Year' award for only noticing how terrible and no good and inauthentic it all is now.

Anyway, taking the tongue out of my cheek, I do think it's more important to take the good and leave the bad with this kind of thing and enjoy the positives. The bad shouldn't take away from the good and I think holiday time is a celebration of the good and not all of it is superficial. If superficiality is all you see, it wouldn't hurt to notice it where its real once in a while. Unless there's some desperate reason why you need to hold onto your cynicism, its actually psychologically healthy to do so.

Still, I will say that I can understand it is a hard time for many people for reasons other than 'its all so commercialized.' Especially if they don't have a positive relationship with their friends and family. It's a painful reminder and I wish there was some way that everyone could celebrate cultural milestones and holidays without anyone feeling left out or alone.
 
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[MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]

To be fair I wouldn't be saying anything if the subject wasn't brought up in the first place.

When I say superficial, I mean things that don't necessarily bring happiness, or aren't necessary for it. To me pretty much all tangible gifts are superficial. Good foods? Decorations? Traditions? Superficial. This doesn't mean these things are WRONG, or false somehow, it means that one shouldn't need them to be happy. I find tangibles to be distracting enough for the rest of the year let alone when people redouble their efforts to have some extra special ones.

My grandparents wanted me to have everything because they had hardly anything. I didn't know it at the time but I would have traded it all for love.

The day I can be happy without physical accoutrements will be the day that I'm just happy. That's year round. The day that I can have a happy Christmas without a single Christmas related item or paraphernalia and not have people bug me about how it isn't Christmas if I don't have x y or z will be the day I'm happy on Christmas.
 
sprinkles said:
I don't think it was ever good. This is the time of year where I randomly burst into tears for no particular reason at all just because my heart is heavy with deep rooted subconscious memories.
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There were a couple of Christmas' that I opted out due to family quarrels. I don't believe in being around people that bring down my mood and that's what would have happened during that time. I know it hurt my mom. That wasn't my intention but if I went, it would have been an even bigger disaster. I have a habit of calling people out on their shit and not backing down. And one particular sibling has a way of making me want to shove a life-sized candy cane up his ass. It wouldn't have been pretty.

I ended up decorating my apartment on the inside and did the whole Christmas thing by myself as if it were normal. I loved it.
Once everything cooled off, I rejoined in the family festivities.

What I'm trying to say is that it's okay to step away and do your own thing when you know certain people will put you in a funk. It's not selfish (as my brother tried to say), it's healthy.

Make your own kind of holiday happy. :)
 
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Anywhere But Here said:
There were a couple of Christmas' that I opted out due to family quarrels. I don't believe in being around people that bring down my mood and that's what would have happened during that time. I know it hurt my mom. That wasn't my intention but if I went, it would have been an even bigger disaster. I have a habit of calling people out on their shit and not backing down. And one particular sibling has a way of making me want to shove a life-sized candy cane up his ass. It wouldn't have been pretty.

I ended up decorating my apartment on the inside and did the whole Christmas thing by myself as if it were normal. I loved it.
Once everything cooled off, I rejoined in the family festivities.

What I'm trying to say is that it's okay to step away and do your own thing when you know certain people will put you in a funk. It's not selfish (as my brother tried to say), it's healthy.

Make your own kind of holiday happy. :)
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Well I did buy myself some headphones. Only because they're normally $200 and I got them for $50, my old plastic ones broke and these new ones are made completely from metal so hopefully I'll be using these for the rest of my life. But there's almost a sense of guilt for feeling that I needed to get anything at all.
 
sprinkles said:
@TheDaringHatTrick

To be fair I wouldn't be saying anything if the subject wasn't brought up in the first place.

When I say superficial, I mean things that don't necessarily bring happiness, or aren't necessary for it. To me pretty much all tangible gifts are superficial. Good foods? Decorations? Traditions? Superficial. This doesn't mean these things are WRONG, or false somehow, it means that one shouldn't need them to be happy. I find tangibles to be distracting enough for the rest of the year let alone when people redouble their efforts to have some extra special ones.

My grandparents wanted me to have everything because they had hardly anything. I didn't know it at the time but I would have traded it all for love.

The day I can be happy without physical accoutrements will be the day that I'm just happy. That's year round. The day that I can have a happy Christmas without a single Christmas related item or paraphernalia and not have people bug me about how it isn't Christmas if I don't have x y or z will be the day I'm happy on Christmas.
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Er, to be clear, my post wasn't in any way a reference to anything specifically that you've written. Perhaps you felt that way because my post followed yours, but I hadn't read any of your thoughts on the subject until just now.
 
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sprinkles said:
Well I did buy myself some headphones. Only because they're normally $200 and I got them for $50, my old plastic ones broke and these new ones are made completely from metal so hopefully I'll be using these for the rest of my life. But there's almost a sense of guilt for feeling that I needed to get anything at all.
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Where does the guilt come from?

Unless you're into some Boko Haram/ISIS/Al-Qaeda type activities, I think it's safe to say that you deserve nice things from yourself or from others :)
 
[MENTION=1855]christmas[/MENTION] is one of my favourite people :)
 
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