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Some people have taken away the rights of others. They are found guilty. They are placed in prison.
The prison system isn't broken: the morality of our society is going down the toilet. Take a rapist, a murderer, and sexual predator that starts maiming children until he starts chopping them up. Don't blame it on the poor, poor people. There are some sick individuals in our society. They put them in prison. What costs so much is their free air conditioning, heating, plumbing, entertainment, free food, free roof and bed, and some of them become institutionalized. They get out and kill someone so they can go back. Stick a gun in your daughter's face. When you stop sending them every night to a vacation resort, maybe things will change. Capital punishment takes thirty years to gas someone. We, my friends, have let our bleeding hearts cost us out the rear end.
Prisoners used to have to work. Let me guess: that's inhumane? Wrong. Grow their own food. Now they study and get prison smart to become better criminals. Children? I've seen some children were hardened criminals. We make things easy for them, at our cost. We are the stupid ones. Stop blaming other people and other institutions and do something about it. A murderer has lost his rights, far as I'm concerned. Crime is crime. Laws are laws. A lawless state is chaos. There is a lot to be said for cutting a hand off. He knew his hand would be cut off, but did it anyway. Most people over there walk away from even being close to something left unattended.
It wouldn't take long to fix it. Instead, we put neon signs on it and put signs on buses that say crime does not pay. Mixed messages. We are responsible because we allow it. Too many tree huggers out there to let them fix it. God will forgive them.....
The prison system isn't broken: the morality of our society is going down the toilet. Take a rapist, a murderer, and sexual predator that starts maiming children until he starts chopping them up. Don't blame it on the poor, poor people. There are some sick individuals in our society. They put them in prison. What costs so much is their free air conditioning, heating, plumbing, entertainment, free food, free roof and bed, and some of them become institutionalized. They get out and kill someone so they can go back. Stick a gun in your daughter's face. When you stop sending them every night to a vacation resort, maybe things will change. Capital punishment takes thirty years to gas someone. We, my friends, have let our bleeding hearts cost us out the rear end.
Prisoners used to have to work. Let me guess: that's inhumane? Wrong. Grow their own food. Now they study and get prison smart to become better criminals. Children? I've seen some children were hardened criminals. We make things easy for them, at our cost. We are the stupid ones. Stop blaming other people and other institutions and do something about it. A murderer has lost his rights, far as I'm concerned. Crime is crime. Laws are laws. A lawless state is chaos. There is a lot to be said for cutting a hand off. He knew his hand would be cut off, but did it anyway. Most people over there walk away from even being close to something left unattended.
It wouldn't take long to fix it. Instead, we put neon signs on it and put signs on buses that say crime does not pay. Mixed messages. We are responsible because we allow it. Too many tree huggers out there to let them fix it. God will forgive them.....
Posted on facebook today. It shows the number of prisons built vs how many universities built in CA.
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Colleges aren't anything to compare to prison, btw. Try comparing it to our school systems. If the schools can do their jobs, there will be less people in prison?? It costs an average of over $700 per student bused across town for school each and every year. Ever wonder what the taxes you pay so high a rate on for school taxes(60%? of property tax?) are being used for? If education is the answer, please tell me why it isn't working. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.
Slap a murderer's hand and give him a government-funded house to pay for. Now he has to steal to make the payments. Some folk would rather just live in your holiday inn environment we have created.
Tin Man
"a respectable amount of screaming"
Even if you take all morality out of the equation, it's a very impractical system. It only satisfies a very petty short term goal and does nothing to alter the major cause of crime. It also seems very arbitrary, where one crime will only result in a slap on the wrist and another similar crime will net you 2 - 5 years. It's similar to a lot of large man made infrastructure, in that it's taken the old broken parts and forced them into a newer system. Because of this, more and more smaller changes are made to patch up the system where a broader reconstruction is needed.
It's archaic and highly flawed, but it's likely to stay in place until things get bad enough and the problems can no longer be ignored.
It's archaic and highly flawed, but it's likely to stay in place until things get bad enough and the problems can no longer be ignored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_California
UOC Merced, 2005
CSU Channel Islands, 2002
CSU San Marcos, 1988
American Heritage University of Southern California, 2003
Argosy University, 2001 Private
The Art Institute of California, San Francisco, 1997
International Technical University, 1994
California Miramar University, 2005
Keck Graduate Institute of Applied Life Sciences, 1997
Culinary Institute of America At Greystone, 1995
Drexel University Sacramento, 2009
Emperor's College of Traditional Oriental Medicine, 1983
Herguan University, 2008
ICDC College, 1995
Imago Dei College, 2010
John Paul The Great Catholic University, 2003
Los Angeles College For Music, 1996
San Francisco Institute of Architecture, 1990
San Diego University For Integrative Studies, 1999
Soka University of America, 2001
Touro University of California, 1997
University of the People, online, 2009
University of the West, 1990
This is a very conclusive, though partial, list of educational institutions built in California since 1980. It takes many things for a college to become a University.
http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/
UOC Merced, 2005
CSU Channel Islands, 2002
CSU San Marcos, 1988
American Heritage University of Southern California, 2003
Argosy University, 2001 Private
The Art Institute of California, San Francisco, 1997
International Technical University, 1994
California Miramar University, 2005
Keck Graduate Institute of Applied Life Sciences, 1997
Culinary Institute of America At Greystone, 1995
Drexel University Sacramento, 2009
Emperor's College of Traditional Oriental Medicine, 1983
Herguan University, 2008
ICDC College, 1995
Imago Dei College, 2010
John Paul The Great Catholic University, 2003
Los Angeles College For Music, 1996
San Francisco Institute of Architecture, 1990
San Diego University For Integrative Studies, 1999
Soka University of America, 2001
Touro University of California, 1997
University of the People, online, 2009
University of the West, 1990
This is a very conclusive, though partial, list of educational institutions built in California since 1980. It takes many things for a college to become a University.
http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/
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No shit there are some people who deserve to be in prison.
As if I and others are working to set such people free…do you seriously believe such conclusions your mind has made about me?
Yes ‘just me’ I am actively working to set the rapists and child murderers free….let’s not be fucking ridiculous now.
Yes, it does cost the states money, and who gets that money? Why are these companies making huge profits off the census numbers being higher?
If you think for one second that all the non-violent drug offenders in prison deserve to be punished then we are done talking.
I seriously don’t think you are actually an INFJ…you have no empathy, much less sympathy.
To you, these are no longer human beings.
How very humanist and Christian of you.
You are part of the problem as far as I am concerned.
I've probably experienced more criminal behaviour than most as a consequence of my job and I think that for some people, maybe they are the exceptions rather than the norm but they are important exceptions as their behaviour has a real impact on a lot of people besides themselves, leniency, second chances, rehabilitation, will not work, the objective lesson they learn is that they can get away with their crimes, that they can exploit what they perceive as a weakness in others or the system, their treatment with generosity or kindness they in turn would not afford anyone else where their roles reversed.
Those same people are generally promiscuous drug users, that's to say that they will use whatever is available to them to get high, it may start out as some sort of juvenile delinquency but quickly it doesnt matter what others reactions are to them or their behaviour and often what effects the substances have on them too. Relaxing drug laws are not going to prevent them having contact with the criminal justice system.
I'm a little concerned at the extent to which cheap services and cheapening services seems to dictate everything pretty much at the moment, including crime and punishment.
Those same people are generally promiscuous drug users, that's to say that they will use whatever is available to them to get high, it may start out as some sort of juvenile delinquency but quickly it doesnt matter what others reactions are to them or their behaviour and often what effects the substances have on them too. Relaxing drug laws are not going to prevent them having contact with the criminal justice system.
I'm a little concerned at the extent to which cheap services and cheapening services seems to dictate everything pretty much at the moment, including crime and punishment.
Why do you always think everything I say is directed at you? You said we are done talking. PLEASE!
I remember another old forum member that butted heads with me....resorted to calling me "not an infj". Resort to trying to belittle me and discredit me. I wasn't even talking to you specifically. I did my homework. Leave me the heck alone. Get thee behind me.
Back around, after being buried.
On any given day, the DOC of CA has over 6,000 inmates being housed in other states.
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I’m curious what you think about these promiscuous drug users?
Sure, they should be punished for committing crimes to get their high.
And I do understand that doing said drugs is actually against the law, but that should tell you something about the nature of their addiction.
Now sure, some of those folks were committing crimes or were connected to gang ties that were maybe selling drugs, but a good portion of them are non-violent drug offenses, minor infractions.
The second highest category are immigration related crimes…non-violent for the most part…so between the two we have almost 60% of the prison population that make up two broad categories of non-violent crime.
This is also for @just me
Who I responded to as such because Kgal and I had both been talking about what you were referring to.
So don’t act surprised.
I’ll let the numbers do the talking.
(Cost Effectiveness of Prison) "Substance-involved people have come to compose a large portion of the prison population. Substance use may play a role in the commission of certain crimes: approximately 16 percent of people in state prison and 18 percent of people in federal prison reported committing their crimes to obtain money for drugs.[SUP]21[/SUP] Treatment delivered in the community is one of the most cost-effective ways to prevent such crimes and costs approximately $20,000 less than incarceration per person per year.[SUP]22[/SUP] A study by the Washington State Institute for Public Policy found that every dollar spent on drug treatment in the community yields over $18 in cost savings related to crime.[SUP]23[/SUP] In comparison, prisons only yield $.37 in public safety benefit per dollar spent. Releasing people to supervision and making treatment accessible is an effective way of reducing problematic drug use, reducing crime associated with drug use and reducing the number of people in prison."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "How to safely reduce prison populations and support people returning to their communities," (Washington, DC: June 2010), p. 8.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/10-06_FAC_ForImmediateRelease...
(US Drug Prisoners) "The United States leads the world in the number of people incarcerated in federal and state correctional facilities. There are currently more than 2 million people in American prisons or jails. Approximately one-quarter of those people held in U.S. prisons or jails have been convicted of a drug offense. The United States incarcerates more people for drug offenses than any other country. With an estimated 6.8 million Americans struggling with drug abuse or dependence, the growth of the prison population continues to be driven largely by incarceration for drug offenses."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "Substance Abuse Treatment and Public Safety," (Washington, DC: January 2008), p. 1.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/08_01_REP_DrugTx_AC-PS.pdf
Sort of ruins your cost effectiveness argument...
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]
Drug laws are simply a moral crusade scheme that worked. They had similar motivations to alcohol prohibition and making pinball illegal, and have had similar repercussions. Doesn't anyone remember their history?
The government tried to ban all kinds of drugs, alcohol and gambling and what happened? All of them went underground and into the hands of gangs and the mafia, police corruption became rampant, we had illegal gambling dens, speakeasies, illegal stills and alcohol smuggling rings. We had bloodbaths in the streets due to the gang warfare. Now that alcohol and gambling is legal, regulated and taxed, how much crime do we see related to that?
They've pulled the wool over and made people believe that drugs are a menace to society, just like they did with alcohol and gambling, and the demonizing of drugs somehow stuck when everything else so obviously didn't.
Drug laws are simply a moral crusade scheme that worked. They had similar motivations to alcohol prohibition and making pinball illegal, and have had similar repercussions. Doesn't anyone remember their history?
The government tried to ban all kinds of drugs, alcohol and gambling and what happened? All of them went underground and into the hands of gangs and the mafia, police corruption became rampant, we had illegal gambling dens, speakeasies, illegal stills and alcohol smuggling rings. We had bloodbaths in the streets due to the gang warfare. Now that alcohol and gambling is legal, regulated and taxed, how much crime do we see related to that?
They've pulled the wool over and made people believe that drugs are a menace to society, just like they did with alcohol and gambling, and the demonizing of drugs somehow stuck when everything else so obviously didn't.
Agree with so many posts in this thread. Our prison system population numbers are reflective of a police state. That in and of itself is alarming. Secondly, I think petty drug offenders have no business in the system. It's not solving anything and it's expensive. Segregating violent offenders via prison from regular social life is necessary, but prison simply as a punitive disincentive from criminal behavior probably doesn't work that well. Various aspects of our prison system as a whole revolt me, no matter how revolting the crimes of the incarcerated offenders may be. Solitary confinement clearly violates the 8th Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. Though I personally would prefer it I think, it is known that many prisoners fear it more than anything and experience extreme psychological duress from it, sometimes even going mad from the experience. In fact, it is my view the entire system when viewed holistically violates the 8th amendment. Rape, and the ensuing rampant spread of deadly disease, is practically ingrained in our penal system. Institutionalized rape is viewed as a war crime or human rights violation in all other contexts, yet it goes on here as par for the course of going to prison. So long as we have powerful, rich lobbyists like Supermax, there will be continued incentive to create these monstrous institutions and support the laws that keep them full.
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I’m curious what you think about these promiscuous drug users?
Sure, they should be punished for committing crimes to get their high.
And I do understand that doing said drugs is actually against the law, but that should tell you something about the nature of their addiction.
Now sure, some of those folks were committing crimes or were connected to gang ties that were maybe selling drugs, but a good portion of them are non-violent drug offenses, minor infractions.
The second highest category are immigration related crimes…non-violent for the most part…so between the two we have almost 60% of the prison population that make up two broad categories of non-violent crime.
This is also for @just me
Who I responded to as such because Kgal and I had both been talking about what you were referring to.
So don’t act surprised.
I’ll let the numbers do the talking.
(Cost Effectiveness of Prison) "Substance-involved people have come to compose a large portion of the prison population. Substance use may play a role in the commission of certain crimes: approximately 16 percent of people in state prison and 18 percent of people in federal prison reported committing their crimes to obtain money for drugs.[SUP]21[/SUP] Treatment delivered in the community is one of the most cost-effective ways to prevent such crimes and costs approximately $20,000 less than incarceration per person per year.[SUP]22[/SUP] A study by the Washington State Institute for Public Policy found that every dollar spent on drug treatment in the community yields over $18 in cost savings related to crime.[SUP]23[/SUP] In comparison, prisons only yield $.37 in public safety benefit per dollar spent. Releasing people to supervision and making treatment accessible is an effective way of reducing problematic drug use, reducing crime associated with drug use and reducing the number of people in prison."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "How to safely reduce prison populations and support people returning to their communities," (Washington, DC: June 2010), p. 8.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/10-06_FAC_ForImmediateRelease...
(US Drug Prisoners) "The United States leads the world in the number of people incarcerated in federal and state correctional facilities. There are currently more than 2 million people in American prisons or jails. Approximately one-quarter of those people held in U.S. prisons or jails have been convicted of a drug offense. The United States incarcerates more people for drug offenses than any other country. With an estimated 6.8 million Americans struggling with drug abuse or dependence, the growth of the prison population continues to be driven largely by incarceration for drug offenses."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "Substance Abuse Treatment and Public Safety," (Washington, DC: January 2008), p. 1.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/08_01_REP_DrugTx_AC-PS.pdf
Sort of ruins your cost effectiveness argument...
You said you were done talking to me. What is so difficult doing that?
You do this all the time. I'm not surprised; merely bringing it to your attention. Leave me out of your personal battles. I'm sharing truths.
Move to San Diego if you think all those drug crimes are so subtle.
Also, from what I hear? I'd rather be in solitary confinement most of the time. People serving double life sentences for murder don't have much to lose.
Why did we grab Manuel Noriega, but couldn't just grab Saddam Hussein and leave everything else there be?
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Incarcerated Felon Population by Type of Crime Committed, 1974-2012
Felons with a sentence of one year or less normally serve their term of incarceration in county jails along with other inmates convicted of misdemeanors. |
| I. Combined State & Federal: Number of Sentenced Prisoners | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
| II. State Jurisdiction: Number of Sentenced Prisoners | ||||
| Offense Category | 2000 | 2008 | 2010 | 2012 |
| Violent a | 620,000 (51.4%) | 715,400 (52.4%) | 725,000 (53.2%) | 707,500 (53.8%) |
| Property b | 246,000 (20.4%) | 251,800 (18.4%) | 249,500 (18.3%) | 247,100 (18.8%) |
| Drug | 263,800 (21.9%) | 251,400 (18.4%) | 237,000 (17.4%) | 210,200 (16.0%) |
| Public-order c | 72,400 (6%) | 125,900 (9.2%) | 142,500 (10.5%) | 140,200 (10.7%) |
| Other/unspecified d | 4,100 (0.3%) | 17,800 (1.3%) | 7,900 (0.6%) | 10,000 (0.8%) |
| Total State Prisoners: | 1,206,300 | 1,362,300 | 1,361,900 | 1,314,900 |
| Notes: |
| a Includes murder, manslaughter, non-negligent manslaughter, rape, other sexual assault, robbery, assault, and other violent crimes. |
| b Includes burglary, larceny, motor vehicle theft, fraud, and other property crimes. |
| c Includes weapons, drunk driving, court offenses, commercialized vice, morals and decency offenses, liquor law violations, and other public-order offenses. |
| d Includes juvenile and other unspecified offense categories. |
| III. Federal Jurisdiction: Number of Sentenced Prisoners | ||||
| Offense Category | 2000 | 2008 | 2010 | 2012 |
| Violent a | 13,740 (10.4%) | 15,483 (8.5%) | 15,000 (7.9%) | 13,700 (10.2%) |
| Property b | 10,135 (7.7%) | 11,080 (6.0%) | 10,300 (5.4%) | 11,200 (7.4%) |
| Drug | 74,276 (56.4%) | 95,079 (52%) | 95,079 (52%) | 98,900 (56.0%) |
| Public-order c | 32,325 (24.5%) | 59,298 (32.5%) | 59,298 (32.5%) | 68,800 (25.8%) |
| Other/unspecified d | 1,263 (1.0%) | 1,394 (1.0%) | 1,394 (1.0%) | 1,200 (0.6%) |
| Total Federal Prisoners: | 131,739 | 182,334 | 190,700 | 193,861 |
| Notes: |
| a Includes murder, negligent, and non-negligent manslaughter, robbery, and other violent crimes. |
| b Includes burglary, fraud, and other property crimes. |
| c Includes immigration, weapons, and other public-order offenses. |
| d Includes offenses not classified. |
| IV. Sources |
|
I keep talking to you because you show one very pigeonholed view over the whole spectrum and I wish for people to have the whole picture before making up their mind.
You didn’t address the cost effectiveness which is what was being discussed.
You were bitching about how much it cost to feed and clothe and take care of the prisoners….well, I provided you with statistics that say differently.
You didn’t address that.
Guess what, most countries don’t have solitary confinement anymore because it is inhumane to the person’s mental state.
As for Saddam and Iraq…yes, we should have left it well enough alone….it has worked out so well for us so far hasn’t it.
Who pushed the country into that war?
Must be Obama’s or the atheists' fault somehow...
@sprinkles
It will only get worse as our children grow up in an “educational” system designed to make them more productive workers when they grow up.
They don’t teach critical thinking….they teach to the tests they are required to administer now.
(excuse me, I know there are some great teachers out there really trying to make a difference)
Yes, they have already forgotten the past…just like they have all forgotten how liberal Reagan could be, but they are also blind to the negative impact the last 4 people we have had as President have had…they gloss it over with nostalgia, then say things like -
Is that supposed to make it right that they kill people there for it, or that we imprison people here for it?
It’s that outdated mentality of an eye for an eye.
There are also 13 countries around the world who impose the death penalty for being an “Atheist”.
39 countries have blasphemy laws that will get you imprisoned.
Even Milan has a law on the books the says you must smile in public or face a fine (funerals and hospital are exceptions of course).
No one is arguing that certain people NEED to be in prison.
My argument is, we have way too many non-violent people in there, learning to become more violent when they should have received treatment instead of punishment.