Would you die for your convictions? (Part 1)

[cvp12gh5]

People tend to become very passionate when talking about and/or defending their views. We see examples of it in all areas of life: religion, politics, family, war, conspiracy theories, etc. These passionate individuals put a lot of time and effort into their beliefs; it's admirable to say the least.

Which leads me to my simple yet complicated question: How passionate are you? Would you die for these convictions that you so diligently stand by?

Details are welcomed.

(To be continued...Part 2)

 

[Eventhorizon]

Simply yes.

Sometimes I feel as if I am standing against something larger than humanity itself. In the face of oblivion I would still hold my ground. As for smaller things like people on this world I would as well. However I cringe at the idea of of being dealt a death blow born of ignorance. Of finding myself in a situation like that to begin with...

 

[Gaze]

I think you can be passionate about your views and have strong convictions, but not sure I would die for them if the moment comes. I would love to say yes, I would die for my convictions but I may not feel as strong when the moment arrives. It's tougher to want to suffer or sacrifice for your convictions if you're standing alone. It would be easier if I wasn't the only one standing up for these convictions. Although ideally, I wouldn't want anyone to have to die for their convictions.

 

[Odyne]

The idea of death defending principles does not frighten me, but I thought really hard about the most precious thing in my life I could possibly lose, and the conclusion was that there is only one conviction I am willing to lose everything for. Everything else I take pride in is not worth that ultimate sacrifice for me, and that is my own hard truth.

We all think that we are strong or brave enough to stand against some evil oppressor, be it a person or an idea, but the reality is we are not. The reality is, it depends on what is at stake. For some, it is social excommunication or bullying, for others it is financial or status loss, or the most frightening ultimatum of them all: death. We will all buckle under the right pressure and against the right threats.


The only ones who can afford bravery are those who have nothing to lose, and even then I don't think it's called bravery anymore.



I will not kid myself, I will not be vain: I hope I am never put in that situation.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

no

cant wait till part 7 with 50 pages each thread

 

[Delta]

No. My inclination is to live due to convictions held. A worthwhile conviction should bring life and not death. Fuck that.

 

[Vict]

Doubt it.

 

[Scientia]

I would die defending a person but not a conviction.

 

[cvp12gh5]

So many strong views on this forum, yet so little response. I must say, I was expecting more.

Let’s use a specific example. Maybe that will help. We'll view this question in terms of religion, since that seems to play an important role in the lives of many.

Several, if not all, religions believe in the ideal of an Antichrist. This ‘false prophet’ is said to be the one that will go toe-to-toe with the Messiah in the final days.

It is written that when the time comes for the antichrist to rule the entire earth, he will require everyone to receive the mark of the beast:

Revelation 13:16-18
Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

You love Jesus but let’s say you decide to take the mark anyway. You have to feed yourself and your family, right? God read your thoughts, sees your plans, and now He is pissed. He sends one of his cronies to yell at you:

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

No one wants to be tormented with fire and sulfur. You reconsider.

You could refuse the mark…

Revelation 20:4
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

but you will be killed. Goodbye head.

The silver lining? You get to hang with God forever. I know it’s a difficult decision. Having your head cut off is a big deal. It would probably hurt like a motherf’er. And if this antichrist is as terrible as they paint him out to be, he will want you to suffer. He’ll cut slowly starting from the front, not the back of your neck. There’s a difference. Look it up.

Now...
What do you choose? Do you stand up for your religious beliefs and deny the mark? And in doing so, lose your life in a very unpleasant manner? Or do you take the mark and be damned?

 

[the]

Im not willing to be a martyr. I wish to enjoy the fruits of my labor and death isn't cutting it.

 

[the]

So many strong views on this forum, yet so little response. I must say, I was expecting more.

Let’s use a specific example. Maybe that will help. We'll view this question in terms of religion, since that seems to play an important role in the lives of many.

Several, if not all, religions believe in the ideal of an Antichrist. This ‘false prophet’ is said to be the one that will go toe-to-toe with the Messiah in the final days.

It is written that when the time comes for the antichrist to rule the entire earth, he will require everyone to receive the mark of the beast:

Revelation 13:16-18
Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

You love Jesus but let’s say you decide to take the mark anyway. You have to feed yourself and your family, right? God read your thoughts, sees your plans, and now He is pissed. He sends one of his cronies to yell at you:

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

No one wants to be tormented with fire and sulfur. You reconsider.

You could refuse the mark…

Revelation 20:4
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

but you will be killed. Goodbye head.

The silver lining? You get to hang with God forever. I know it’s a difficult decision. Having your head cut off is a big deal. It would probably hurt like a motherf’er. And if this antichrist is as terrible as they paint him out to be, he will want you to suffer. He’ll cut slowly starting from the front, not the back of your neck. There’s a difference. Look it up.

Now...
What do you choose? Do you stand up for your religious beliefs and deny the mark? And in doing so, lose your life in a very unpleasant manner? Or do you take the mark and be damned?

Hard to say what ill choose. The reality I see or a possible alternate reality that may or may not be better.

 

[Cornerstone]

I'm more afraid of feeling humiliated whilst it happens. However, if I can get over that before the coping saws come out, I don't know.

Would I die in the way Martin Luther King and Gandhi died for their beliefs? Yes...but is that because of the recognition that it happened?

Honestly, yes.

On the Revelation point, I would see it as a case of dying for my own karma as I believe that is where any retribution for accepting the mark of the beast would come from. It's a collective karmic checkpoint from what I can tell (because we're social creatures). I wonder are those the only two options though. I mean, if you accept the mark then that's that (understandably, especially if they make it obvious and explicit what you're agreeing to). But is there not some wriggle room when it comes to the grisly death? I wonder what suicide by cop gets you, if you do a lot of good but just think 'fuck this' whilst in the decapitation queue.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I dont think religion is a good topic for me regarding conviction. In my mind God of the bible and Satan are both the same. Should they exist (which I never will believe) I have just as much issue with one as I do the other. I take option Z. Bide my time until I am more powerful than both...perhapz a trillion trillion years and then wipe them both from existence.

 

[muir]

I'm more afraid of feeling humiliated whilst it happens. However, if I can get over that before the coping saws come out, I don't know.

Would I die in the way Martin Luther King and Gandhi died for their beliefs? Yes...but is that because of the recognition that it happened?

Honestly, yes.

On the Revelation point, I would see it as a case of dying for my own karma as I believe that is where any retribution for accepting the mark of the beast would come from. It's a collective karmic checkpoint from what I can tell (because we're social creatures). I wonder are those the only two options though. I mean, if you accept the mark then that's that (understandably, especially if they make it obvious and explicit what you're agreeing to). But is there not some wriggle room when it comes to the grisly death? I wonder what suicide by cop gets you, if you do a lot of good but just think 'fuck this' whilst in the decapitation queue.

Not sure i could last it either...i hate queues

 

[Cornerstone]

Not sure i could last it either...i hate queues

What is Judgement Day going to be like?

I guess that's why it's good to bring as little baggage as possible.

BADUM-TISH!

 

[muir]

What is Judgement Day going to be like?

I guess that's why it's good to bring as little baggage as possible.

BADUM-TISH!

lol

Yeah otherwise you might have...a hell of a time...***audience groan***

 

[Lark]

People tend to become very passionate when talking about and/or defending their views. We see examples of it in all areas of life: religion, politics, family, war, conspiracy theories, etc. These passionate individuals put a lot of time and effort into their beliefs; it's admirable to say the least.

Which leads me to my simple yet complicated question: How passionate are you? Would you die for these convictions that you so diligently stand by?

Details are welcomed.

(To be continued...Part 2)

This is something which I would like to change, the association between convictions and passion, particularly passion as indicated by death or dying.

I think this is a hangover from earlier ideas, which are embedded in the collective unconscious and archetypes to use a Jungian frame of reference and validates self-sacrifice and martyrdom as the same or dying.

The thing about martyrdom is its misunderstood.

It was meant to be about living and wanting to continue to live at all costs but being deprived of your life and killed against you will, there's no way that getting yourself killed, still less becoming a suicide bomber or something of that kind (in medieval warfare fanatical troops would get themselves infected with plague and then infiltrate enemy camps or castles, insane like).

This whole martyrdom thing has is secular equivalents too in Che Guevara or the doomed or lost cause like the Paris Commune or other insurgents or insurrections which have failed.

Instead I believe that people should show passion or conviction by living and not dying.

Accepting that the world is imperfect, that it cant be made perfect, that your death or others will not hasten the world towards perfection or ameliorate or mitigate imperfection but that all that said life is still worth living and your life could be testamony to your convictions in the process. I would be pragmatic and would mean to survive at pretty much all costs, there are limits even to this though, but in the main it is not about dying.

I think there are a lot of other useless, futile and impotent gestures too, getting arrested, some forms of protest, some forms of monkey wrenching, direct action or struggles too. They should be avoided.

 

[Lark]

I would die defending a person but not a conviction.

I would do both, I would not want to die though, perhaps it would be more apt to say that I would fight and kill to defend people and certain convictions but would not elect to die myself if it is at all possible.

 

[Lark]

Now...
What do you choose? Do you stand up for your religious beliefs and deny the mark? And in doing so, lose your life in a very unpleasant manner? Or do you take the mark and be damned?

I dont believe that revelations should be read that way, its a little like reading 1984 and other dystopias as pure forecast which they are not, they may be prophetic but this is different to forecast and literalism is a heresy built upon the foundation of solo scripture, itself a terrible error which has marked Christianity and Christendom badly from then to now, anyone who has read the discourse on freewill between Luther and Erasmus will find it familiar because the same sorts of personality profiles exist and are locked in perpetual conflict, the content changes and that's all.

The thing about works like revelation and 1984 is that they each describe their present before predicting "ultimate consequences", in other words, they are short term pessimist and long term optimist, revelation predicts horrors heaped upon horrors for believers but ultimately they'll be grand, 1984 is the same horror heaped upon horror but ultimately things will be alright because all the regime can produce are broken men and everything is falling apart as a result and can not endure.

I dont believe anyone would deliberately, willingly and wishfully collude with satan or satanism, The Stand depicts this well, the evil magician/devil figure has a lot of followers simply because they do not want to die slow deaths or whatever he "saved" them from, although when he reveals himself as full on dude with horns everyone splits but for a few total and utter fanatical supporters.

 

[Lark]

Im not willing to be a martyr. I wish to enjoy the fruits of my labor and death isn't cutting it.

I agree.

I would also suggest that martyrdom is not something you could elect or choose, its actually something properly so attributed to you by others after the fact, now they may or may not be using that correctly but its not a label you choose anyway.