Why are you religious?
- Thread starter Apone
- Start date
No shit... of course I'm upset. So why beat the dead horse further? I'm obviously not going to talk about my personal beliefs with you when you continue to push the situation.
Have some regard - Drop it.
Last edited:
U
Untitled
I would define myself as spiritual too.
Here's a definition of religion
Here's a definition of religion
I don't consider myself an adherent to any particular religion but am spiritual. The closest I feel to mystics regardless of which religion they belong to, wether Christian, Sufi, buddhist or if they're let's say...Wittgenstein. ;D
Eremitism is a very well established practice within Christianity and many other religious traditions. Your statement quite literally describes a language, i.e. a system to describe spirituality, transfer to others, and enable one to expand upon. The Word of God, or Logos, is a central tenet of Christian belief and it seems unbecoming to discredit someone who chooses to live alternate forms of the consecrated life.
I have to disagree with this... a lot, actually. I don't think that a more concrete/structured approach to existence is necessarily a good thing. I'm of the opinion that things are pretty fluid, and adhering to any system inevitably means that sometimes you're going to be trying to force a square peg through a round hole. You should be self-critical... and yes, it is possible, even if you're 'only' spiritual.
Some people sort of crave that stability and the external reinforcement of community to feel like they're on the right track, but I don't think that not having it means that any of those adjectives apply... and community can actually be a distraction/obstacle as well.
<---religious Mutt?
Damn it, <smile> oops. So if I believe in God, not because of anything I have learned in a church or in the bible, but because of my own personal experiences, does that make me religious?
I do remember one prayer growing up: "Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the lord, my soul to take." What!!???. What Lord? Why would we die in our sleep? Why would I need to know that prayer, and NOTHING else? Would my brother in sister be involved in my demise? ( It wouldn't surprise me) What was a soul?
I never slept well as a child. I often slept with out boxer (dog) on the floor.
I wasn't taught to be an atheist. I was taught not to believe in God, by my family. I believe I was taught to believe in the God I have come to know, by God. (and karma)
Damn it, <smile> oops. So if I believe in God, not because of anything I have learned in a church or in the bible, but because of my own personal experiences, does that make me religious?
I do remember one prayer growing up: "Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the lord, my soul to take." What!!???. What Lord? Why would we die in our sleep? Why would I need to know that prayer, and NOTHING else? Would my brother in sister be involved in my demise? ( It wouldn't surprise me) What was a soul?
I never slept well as a child. I often slept with out boxer (dog) on the floor.
I wasn't taught to be an atheist. I was taught not to believe in God, by my family. I believe I was taught to believe in the God I have come to know, by God. (and karma)
I really want to expand on my answer (D), but I keep not having the kind of time I'd like to put into it, so I'm just going to give a quick version (I hope.)
Situations in my life had me in a VERY bad place, to where if anything else went wrong I'd probably have either had a total, needing to be institutionalized, breakdown, or would have ended up killing myself (I was seeing a therapist at the time and even they were worried.) I took a vacation, by myself away from the computer, phone, anyone I knew (even my husband) and in the middle of nowhere. It was a 2 week vegan cooking school that had the right price, knew what my diet meant, and was away from everything. I didn't really need to learn to cook, but I figured classes would give me something to focus on, and prevent me from spending too much time spiralling deeper into the black hole I was headed towards. The school was run my Seventh Day Adventists. I emailed them and said I wasn't Christian, but could respect others beliefs, prayer, etc, but if I was going to be preached at or made to feel an "outsider" that needed to be converted I didn't want to wase anyones time. They said it was fine.
The staff was all SDA, and about 2/3 of the attendees were. I attended worship with them (for the experience and to be polite even though no one really would have cared.) Their actions, their demeanor, the points from the Bible, and the inexplicable feelings that I got led me to prayer within a couple of days of arriving. I told no one until the last dayI was there. I realized that I was putting too much pressure on myself. Previously Buddhism would've been the closest current belief system I had. To think that the answer is within me if I could just get rid of the clutter (super simplified, and not meaning to be disrespectful) that I could find peace. THat's a LOT of pressure to put on someone, that the only reason they don't have peace is they aren't trying hard enough or doing "something" right.
To know that there IS a God who Loves me, Cares about me, Knows the troubles of my heart, and wants me to be able to live with Him forever in Heaven, and DIED for that opportunity is overwhelming in the right kind of way (and this from someone who has issues accepting that ANYONE cares about her...) and I was truly impressed to change many things in my life. No one ever preached at me, or told me to stop any behaviors, or gave me a list of rules. There are doctrines of the church, but they aren't a problem for me because they are things I was doing anyway out of the impression that God made on my heart. I know he was working on me before I even went out because I was impressed to stop drinking, and to stop several other sinful behaviors.
My life has changed for the better, and even those around me see it. They might not like that I'm Christian, they might give me a hard time for mentioning God or not doing certain things, but for the most part they see that I have more peace than I have EVER had in my life, and that the Lord IS with me and keeping me. We have not wanted for any of our basic needs despite being unemployed, and there are so many other Blessings I've been given that I am grateful for, despite the challenges we're faced with.
Yes, that is the short version. Good Night.
Situations in my life had me in a VERY bad place, to where if anything else went wrong I'd probably have either had a total, needing to be institutionalized, breakdown, or would have ended up killing myself (I was seeing a therapist at the time and even they were worried.) I took a vacation, by myself away from the computer, phone, anyone I knew (even my husband) and in the middle of nowhere. It was a 2 week vegan cooking school that had the right price, knew what my diet meant, and was away from everything. I didn't really need to learn to cook, but I figured classes would give me something to focus on, and prevent me from spending too much time spiralling deeper into the black hole I was headed towards. The school was run my Seventh Day Adventists. I emailed them and said I wasn't Christian, but could respect others beliefs, prayer, etc, but if I was going to be preached at or made to feel an "outsider" that needed to be converted I didn't want to wase anyones time. They said it was fine.
The staff was all SDA, and about 2/3 of the attendees were. I attended worship with them (for the experience and to be polite even though no one really would have cared.) Their actions, their demeanor, the points from the Bible, and the inexplicable feelings that I got led me to prayer within a couple of days of arriving. I told no one until the last dayI was there. I realized that I was putting too much pressure on myself. Previously Buddhism would've been the closest current belief system I had. To think that the answer is within me if I could just get rid of the clutter (super simplified, and not meaning to be disrespectful) that I could find peace. THat's a LOT of pressure to put on someone, that the only reason they don't have peace is they aren't trying hard enough or doing "something" right.
To know that there IS a God who Loves me, Cares about me, Knows the troubles of my heart, and wants me to be able to live with Him forever in Heaven, and DIED for that opportunity is overwhelming in the right kind of way (and this from someone who has issues accepting that ANYONE cares about her...) and I was truly impressed to change many things in my life. No one ever preached at me, or told me to stop any behaviors, or gave me a list of rules. There are doctrines of the church, but they aren't a problem for me because they are things I was doing anyway out of the impression that God made on my heart. I know he was working on me before I even went out because I was impressed to stop drinking, and to stop several other sinful behaviors.
My life has changed for the better, and even those around me see it. They might not like that I'm Christian, they might give me a hard time for mentioning God or not doing certain things, but for the most part they see that I have more peace than I have EVER had in my life, and that the Lord IS with me and keeping me. We have not wanted for any of our basic needs despite being unemployed, and there are so many other Blessings I've been given that I am grateful for, despite the challenges we're faced with.
Yes, that is the short version. Good Night.
Well, I do think you do need to be a follower in order to be religious... and I have to disagree that spirituality is the same thing as religiousness. Spirituality doesn't always imply the same degree of commitment that religion does. Religious people tend to let their beliefs define themselves and others, while I'm not completely sure that 'spiritual' people really ever come to definite conclusions about people in general.
A person's spirit and spirituality is a personal and individualistic set of beliefs. A religion is an organization or group with a shared set of beliefs. Religion is spirituality en masse.
[MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION]
As you stated, personal beliefs can be more ambiguous and/or ill-defined or not depending on the individual, whereas religious institutions tend to be more well-defined as a social institution even though eastern religious traditions are less well-defined comparatively. Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all have various analogous beliefs and practices that may or may not define those systems as being a 'religion' in the western sense of the word rather than a philosophy or socio-ethical system. Religion typically consists of rituals, mythos, and symbolism.
[MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION]
As you stated, personal beliefs can be more ambiguous and/or ill-defined or not depending on the individual, whereas religious institutions tend to be more well-defined as a social institution even though eastern religious traditions are less well-defined comparatively. Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all have various analogous beliefs and practices that may or may not define those systems as being a 'religion' in the western sense of the word rather than a philosophy or socio-ethical system. Religion typically consists of rituals, mythos, and symbolism.
I dont think religion aspect of all things supernatural will ever be something a INFJs will get into because it required discipline to do the same things over and over. Much better suited to ISTJs, which is why we end up going to heaven.
Last edited:
Spirituality explains the magic of the universe. There is a connection I feel to nature or a oneness to the world. Spirituality breathes hope when I think hope does not exist. I've had my fair share of religious institutions and don't care to step in one again (except for weddings and funerals.) My relationship is between the spirit and myself. I feel closer to spirituality now than I ever did when I was religious.
Last edited:
To extend your analogy, forcing a square peg through a round hole will wear the sharp edges off the peg; and allow it to go places it had previously never been able to go.
I think the communal aspect of religion has two aspects: 1. the fundamental community intended; and 2. the secondary sense of community that is consequent.
1. A religion, the Christian one aims fundamentally at establishing a personal community between God and the individual (communion - or common union).
2. Secondarily, in Christianity, community is established with other individuals with the same fundamental communion: the Pope, bishops, other Christians, etc.
Secondary, or consequent community may make some people feel more secure, etc. However, I suspect that for most people, it is more of a burden - I put up with other Christians because it is good for me - and for them to do so. More than this, the ideal is to strive to love each other perfectly - which is not so much about personal feelings of security, as about personal growth beyond self.
I wasn't talking about the religious people themselves, but those who make fun of the religion and reject it out of close-mindedness. It's not that they dont have the intelligence to understand the religion, they just dont want to.
Yeah, and more specifically the religion part of language. Where did I discredit someone practicing a religion? I don't think someone who is a Christian would call Jesus a zombie. You think the Word of God is language? Would you explain your last sentence?
Because I don't fit it, it fits me.
I've always been spiritual, and I've explored many other religions, but this one fits perfectly how I've come to see the world (both spiritually and scientifically) and the values I wanted to live my life by. So, I believed.
I've always been spiritual, and I've explored many other religions, but this one fits perfectly how I've come to see the world (both spiritually and scientifically) and the values I wanted to live my life by. So, I believed.
I am a deeply religious person. And for the "spiritual" gang in here, I don't see religiousity as opposed to spirituality, but as the FORM we give our spirituality. I am also a deeply spiritual person. I have to answer E) None of the above.
Yes, I was raised in an incredibly religious family. However, while that may give me a sense of comfort with religious community, most of my siblings have opted to be far less religious. I can only conclude that perhaps my upbringing is a factor, but NOT the decisive factor.
I think that I tend to choose friends that have similar interests. IOW, I'm not religious because I have religious friends, but I have religious friends because I'm religious. I tried getting involved in a local Jewish social club that was secular, and it just struck me as odd and uncomfortable that they didn't pray before they ate, for example. I didn't go back. See how it works?
I have had a lot of experiences that would be classified as spiritual, or religious, or ecstatic mysticism. However, if you look around the world, people have these experiences respond in many different ways. I think that, YES, they definitely lead me to be religious in SOME way, but the unique way of my OWN religiousness (tradition, ritual, liturgy, etc.) is not inherently an effect of these experiences.
I have discussed this with my brother on a lot of occasions, because I am the only one in my family that is like this. It has never been enough for me to have my own religious experiences.
1. I have always had the sense that I am fallible, and can benefit from standing on the shoulders of the great spiritual thinkers that have come before me. I have a deep appreciation for those religions that have stood the test of time, because wisdom is able to be "distilled" over the ages so that we don't keep having to reinvent the moral wheel.
2. Although I talk to G-d all day long in one long ongoing spontaneous prayer, I am ALSO deeply moved by the beauty of form prayers, what we call liturgy, especially when they are shared by many simultaneously. It's like asking me if I prefer free verse or a sonate -- I just like both. "Spiritual" sorts like to degrade liturgy, to say that people go through the form without feeling. How do YOU know? The rhyme and rhythm of a sonate is simply the lattice upon which the poem can grow. Who is to say that ballroom dancing isn't just as sexy as free form dancing -- maybe even more so!
3. I like Holidays. I ENJOY dividing the normal from the sacred, the weekday from the sabbath, the fast from the feast. I experience it like the waves on the beach, or the puffs of wind blowing my hair on a blustery day, like the seasons of the year that come and go. If there is a hell for me, it will be a hell of sameness, where the temperature is always 70 degrees and nothing good or bad ever happens. I don't want to live in the flatland -- I want hills.
I think the above three traits are biological and unique to me. They draw me to organized religions that have been around for ages.
Yes, I was raised in an incredibly religious family. However, while that may give me a sense of comfort with religious community, most of my siblings have opted to be far less religious. I can only conclude that perhaps my upbringing is a factor, but NOT the decisive factor.
I think that I tend to choose friends that have similar interests. IOW, I'm not religious because I have religious friends, but I have religious friends because I'm religious. I tried getting involved in a local Jewish social club that was secular, and it just struck me as odd and uncomfortable that they didn't pray before they ate, for example. I didn't go back. See how it works?
I have had a lot of experiences that would be classified as spiritual, or religious, or ecstatic mysticism. However, if you look around the world, people have these experiences respond in many different ways. I think that, YES, they definitely lead me to be religious in SOME way, but the unique way of my OWN religiousness (tradition, ritual, liturgy, etc.) is not inherently an effect of these experiences.
I have discussed this with my brother on a lot of occasions, because I am the only one in my family that is like this. It has never been enough for me to have my own religious experiences.
1. I have always had the sense that I am fallible, and can benefit from standing on the shoulders of the great spiritual thinkers that have come before me. I have a deep appreciation for those religions that have stood the test of time, because wisdom is able to be "distilled" over the ages so that we don't keep having to reinvent the moral wheel.
2. Although I talk to G-d all day long in one long ongoing spontaneous prayer, I am ALSO deeply moved by the beauty of form prayers, what we call liturgy, especially when they are shared by many simultaneously. It's like asking me if I prefer free verse or a sonate -- I just like both. "Spiritual" sorts like to degrade liturgy, to say that people go through the form without feeling. How do YOU know? The rhyme and rhythm of a sonate is simply the lattice upon which the poem can grow. Who is to say that ballroom dancing isn't just as sexy as free form dancing -- maybe even more so!
3. I like Holidays. I ENJOY dividing the normal from the sacred, the weekday from the sabbath, the fast from the feast. I experience it like the waves on the beach, or the puffs of wind blowing my hair on a blustery day, like the seasons of the year that come and go. If there is a hell for me, it will be a hell of sameness, where the temperature is always 70 degrees and nothing good or bad ever happens. I don't want to live in the flatland -- I want hills.
I think the above three traits are biological and unique to me. They draw me to organized religions that have been around for ages.
So my answer must have surprised you.
One of the reasons that NF's are so hard to type is that we really don't fit into boxes. Uber, I promise you that every time you think you have finally figured out something about INFJ's, one is going to show up in this forum that will break your rule.
My poor rabbi, with whom I argue constantly, will tell you I'm no follower. I do have an awareness of my own fallability, which is why I study the opinions of the sages. But I'm your typical mouthy opinionated Jew who sits around the table studying Torah thumping all the other typical mouthy opinionated Jews with my opinions and getting thumped in return. Our most recent discussion: was it morally wrong of the children of Israel to take the gold and silver of Egypt when we left? We came up with three contradictory answers. I love it.
Can we somehow entertain this particular question about what is spirituality and what is religiousity while at the same time giving the girl a break? IOW, let's please not reply to her personally, she has asked to be left alone -- respect!!! But at the same time, I think defining terms is a good idea. And let's remember that MOST English words are used in multiple ways, so I'm quite certain we will have more than one set of definitions that are accurate in that they are actually used this way in real life.
So my answer must have surprised you.
I wouldn't say it surprised me really. That finding just goes into another box in my mind. It makes me happy that some people can "rise above their type".
I'll go ahead and apologize for my atheistic brethren causing trouble, but also, in their defense, naturalistic rationalism does occasionally impart feelings of superiority on to one.
So, what religion(s) might you undeclared spiritualists be, if any so apply? =3
So, what religion(s) might you undeclared spiritualists be, if any so apply? =3