What is the Highest Form of Pleasure?

[JennyDaniella]

Both at the same time tho.
But maybe you can't truly appreciate works of Plato mid coitus.

LMFAO

 

[JennyDaniella]

Both at the same time tho.
But maybe you can't truly appreciate works of Plato mid coitus.

Idkkk man. Can’t do the shabang properly if you aren’t reading Republic by Plato!

 

[Wyote]

Idkkk man. Can’t do the shabang properly if you aren’t reading Republic by Plato!

Allegory of the Cave, in a cave, seems more appealing. But that's just me.

 

[JennyDaniella]

Allegory of the Cave, in a cave, seems more appealing. But that's just me.

LOL you win

A threesome with Socrates also sounds appealing. Hmmmm.

Edit: My bad, I mean foursome. The most grandest philosophical experience ever.

 

[Wyote]

LOL you win

A threesome with Socrates also sounds appealing. Hmmmm.

I'm sure Mr. Van Wilder would happily contribute to that group

 

[JennyDaniella]

I'm sure Mr. Van Wilder would happily contribute to that group

 

[Faye]

Both at the same time tho.
But maybe you can't truly appreciate works of Plato mid coitus.

Maybe you cannot truly appreciate coitus until you, the philosopher, have understood that forms are the true nature of reality. Because then, you will understand you are not having sex with just a human but with a universal form of a human, which is basically the same as having sex with the universe. Right?

 

[Wyote]

Maybe you cannot truly appreciate coitus until you, the philosopher, have understood that forms are the true nature of reality. Because then, you will understand you are not having sex with just a human but with a universal form of a human, which is basically the same as having sex with the universe. Right?

Great, now I get to disappoint the entire universe too

 

[Faye]

Great, now I get to disappoint the entire universe too

The universe just likes being with you regardless.

 

[Wyote]

The universe just likes being with you regardless.

Cute!!

 

[Ren]

"For the latter, it is intellectual: spontaneous pleasures end up in boredom, and worse, they make us dependent on them, and expose us to the pain of lack until they are met."

Hmm, this just made me realize something. Months back, I began experimenting with edible cannabis. One day, While I was in the "high mode" I decided to listen to some oldies on tidal. It was a mind blowing, brain pleasuring experience. I could hear every single instrument playing....Every single one! The moment Crusin by smokey robbison came on...I was in the clouds...I literally "ZonedOut". But then the moment the high was over all tracks on tidal sounded normal..."blank".

Obviously, Cannabis gave me spontaneous pleasure, and it expected me to depend on it to keep getting that pleasure.


Arthur Schopenhauer was right. Intellectual pleasure is far better.

That's a great example of the short-lived and potentially addictive nature of this kind of pleasure. I think it applies to all drugs, really.

What would you say to someone who retorted that intensely experienced pleasure in the short term is better than longer term, less intense pleasure, like pleasures of the intellect? Why do you think the latter is better? (I agree with you, by the way, but I'm just curious to hear your perspective).

 

[Ren]

By total chance I'm currently listening to a podcast on Utilitarianism, and one of the contributors mentioned this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicific_calculus

Bentham thought you could literally put a numerical value on pleasure, and thus turn ethics into a kind of science. I thought it was interesting in the context of what Fid had said about simply measuring dopamine. Again, though, it seems unsatisfactory.

As Skare points out, there's an element of pleasure than cannot be reduced to identifiable experiences, and therefore might be incalculable.

On the other hand, I do wonder what value Bentham's calculus would put on a general sense of wellness and contentment for decades over a lifetime (since duration is one of his variables).

Felicific Calculus! I had never come across that "invention" of Bentham's before.

There is a certain crudeness to it, which reminds me of the limitations of Utilitarianism, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless. In many ways it's probably been a precursor to many like attempts at modelling happiness since... I'm thinking in particular of Bhutan's Gross National Happiness, which is officially sanctioned by the government of that country; as well as the World Happiness Report of the United Nations.

To think that he also came up with the idea of the Panopticon...

 

[Sandie33]

 

[Puzzlenuzzle]

- When I or someone close to me experiences self-growth (whatever way), self-acceptance, and when someone (or myself) is ready/willing to challenge themselves.
- Aha moments.
- Seeing random acts of kindness.
- When you can feel the love hehe
- When the world starts feeling lighter
- Deep learning
- Drinking morning coffee when its pitch black outside
- Challenging ideas one takes for granted... or, becomes normative e.g. culturally, socially, etc. I mean.. what makes it so?
- Laying down while thinking and contemplating.
- When people around me are happy.....er
- More ahaaaa moments
- Happy, joyful faces
- My dogs
- Retarded laughs

oh and like Hos said: 2) Eureka moments are always quite nice, especially those times where everything seems to 'come together'.

 

[JennyDaniella]

Laying down while thinking and contemplating.

Seeing random acts of kindness.

When I or someone close to me experiences self-growth (whatever way), self-acceptance, and when someone (or myself) is ready/willing to challenge themselves.

Yes!! All this! ^_^

 

[Zoned Out Again]

That's a great example of the short-lived and potentially addictive nature of this kind of pleasure. I think it applies to all drugs, really.

What would you say to someone who retorted that intensely experienced pleasure in the short term is better than longer term, less intense pleasure, like pleasures of the intellect? Why do you think the latter is better? (I agree with you, by the way, but I'm just curious to hear your perspective).

Personally, I feel a pleasure of longer term adds more meaning in the life of an individual. Unlike the short term pleasure which just appears and disappears and leaves one feeling bored or addicted, the former lingers and aids one to learn and appreciate certain facts or principles about life probably as a result of an experience gained.

For example, years ago when I was a student in the university, my desire had always been to graduate with a good grade. Eventually I did graduate with a good grade which gave me a nice job and I felt happy. Initially, the happiness I felt was because of the good grade. But now when I remember all the stress such as hectic class schedules, tons of books i read within a short period of time, choked up Dom room(we were 8 guys in a small crappy room..and yes we cook in that room.), numerous times I fell ill and horrible times when I was completely dead broke. When I remember all that, I not only feel happy, I am proud of myself. I learned how to tolerate living with 7 guys with different personalities. I feel motivated that if I could cope with all that, then i can cope in any stressful situation I may find myself in future. It taught me that nothing good comes easy and hard work pays. I still feel the joy and happiness (pleasure) as a result of the experience.

I don't know if all I've typed makes sense, am sorry if it doesn't but that's just how I see it. Long term pleasure not only makes you happy, it encourages and makes you think positive about yourself.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

- When I or someone close to me experiences self-growth (whatever way), self-acceptance, and when someone (or myself) is ready/willing to challenge themselves.
- Aha moments.
- Seeing random acts of kindness.
- When you can feel the love hehe
- When the world starts feeling lighter
- Deep learning
- Drinking morning coffee when its pitch black outside
- Challenging ideas one takes for granted... or, becomes normative e.g. culturally, socially, etc. I mean.. what makes it so?
- Laying down while thinking and contemplating.
- When people around me are happy.....er
- More ahaaaa moments
- Happy, joyful faces
- My dogs
- Retarded laughs

oh and like Hos said: 2) Eureka moments are always quite nice, especially those times where everything seems to 'come together'.

Yeah, definitely.

I think of the top one here as related to what @Skarecrow and @Zoned Out Again have said - that there is a kind of 'transcendent pleasure' that you get when you achieve something like 'cosmic growth', or the fulfillment of potential, &c.

I also think it might be linked to a fundamental orientation towards 'purpose' (and therefore we might call this class of pleasures 'purposive pleasures' or something). In fact, when I first read @Ren's OP on this thread, my first thought was to the Mr Meeseeks race from Rick and Morty.

Essentially these blue guys are called into existence for a singular purpose (to fulfill wishes), and then cease to exist once that purpose is completed. The 'pleasure' for them of completing their life's purpose must surely be something close to what we mean by 'highest pleasure'.

 

[Ren]

- Challenging ideas one takes for granted... or, becomes normative e.g. culturally, socially, etc. I mean.. what makes it so?

This is also a great source of pleasure to me. I call it "the art of questioning".

I think INFJs are well-equipped for it, thanks to Ni and Ti.

 

[just me]

When I am doing something I love to do, in a place I cherish, I have my greatest pleasure feeling at one with God and feeling His presence. It is above comprehension, and I feel so unworthy.

 

[Ren]

When I am doing something I love to do, in a place I cherish, I have my greatest pleasure feeling at one with God and feeling His presence. It is above comprehension, and I feel so unworthy.

I can imagine the pleasure in this feeling of intimate oneness with God. But would you say that the feeling of unworthiness is part of the pleasure, too?